Sumburgh SAR Incident?
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WOW
When starting this thread i didnt expect to hear it from the horses mouth!!!!!!!
Of course there are differing opinions as to what should be said and what should not regarding this incident (come on lets call it what it was, an ACCIDENT), but most worrying is the murmur that this particular P1 may have done something similar more than once, thankfully without the same consequences, and been allowed to continue as a SAR Captain without things at least being looked into.
Every Company has a duty of care etc and there should be procedures in place to address deviation from SOP's etc?
Angel, all SAR operators wish you a speedy recovery and the same to the young lad. I hope it doesnt put you off going back to flying as there are still plenty of excellent SAR people out there.
doorstopper
When starting this thread i didnt expect to hear it from the horses mouth!!!!!!!
Of course there are differing opinions as to what should be said and what should not regarding this incident (come on lets call it what it was, an ACCIDENT), but most worrying is the murmur that this particular P1 may have done something similar more than once, thankfully without the same consequences, and been allowed to continue as a SAR Captain without things at least being looked into.
Every Company has a duty of care etc and there should be procedures in place to address deviation from SOP's etc?
Angel, all SAR operators wish you a speedy recovery and the same to the young lad. I hope it doesnt put you off going back to flying as there are still plenty of excellent SAR people out there.
doorstopper
Last edited by doorstopper; 1st Oct 2005 at 19:09.
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angelonawire
As you were there i thought it was best you tell the story, i took a few hits this morning from the usual crowd but people need to realise how dangerous this job is, you may be paid less but you take all the risks that don't need multipling by bad judgement/flying.
Hope your injuries?? heal soon.
you have my support and best wishes
As you were there i thought it was best you tell the story, i took a few hits this morning from the usual crowd but people need to realise how dangerous this job is, you may be paid less but you take all the risks that don't need multipling by bad judgement/flying.
Hope your injuries?? heal soon.
you have my support and best wishes
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There goes the speculation!
Angel - Am horrified to read your story. Shocked, astounded are also words that spring to mind. Thank god you & the casualty made it through! Again, I wish you all the best & trust you'll soon be back doing the job. I must also pass on the best wishes of all the SAR crews here in Ireland.
SARGOD - You clearly mistook my post to mean I was in some way insulted by your post. I assure you that was not the case. I have had a crash, I have seen the damage speculation does to people. I merely stated that I didn't support speculation of any sort, & that included the speculation that you may be in Ireland.
I agree with you, the truth hurts but so does speculation.
Roofus
SARGOD - You clearly mistook my post to mean I was in some way insulted by your post. I assure you that was not the case. I have had a crash, I have seen the damage speculation does to people. I merely stated that I didn't support speculation of any sort, & that included the speculation that you may be in Ireland.
I DO NOT support any speculation made by persons on this board! SARGOD may or may not be in Ireland! I dunno!
Roofus
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Sargod
Like some others, I was commenting on your posting second hand information. In particular before any enquiry had been started up. I still hold much the same opinion of your first post, but understand why you felt compelled to do so on reading angels story.
Having said that, perceptions and reality can sometimes be quite different, it all depends on which end of the wire you are on - if you can excuse the pun.
I certainly wish angel a speedy recovery and hope that something good will come of this very nearly tragic incident. There will no doubt be learning points for all somewhere - even if it is just to know who not to fly with when the chips are going to be down!
Like some others, I was commenting on your posting second hand information. In particular before any enquiry had been started up. I still hold much the same opinion of your first post, but understand why you felt compelled to do so on reading angels story.
Having said that, perceptions and reality can sometimes be quite different, it all depends on which end of the wire you are on - if you can excuse the pun.
I certainly wish angel a speedy recovery and hope that something good will come of this very nearly tragic incident. There will no doubt be learning points for all somewhere - even if it is just to know who not to fly with when the chips are going to be down!
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Angel.
Horrifying. Glad you are alright. Can understand why you are P!$$€d off - began my career down the back and have utmost admiration for the guys who still do it. Hope you can get back into it soon.
Sargod.
Stand by what i said though. You don't do an issue justice if you post second hand information in an aggressive manner. Had one of my mates just called me and told me that story i would have been furious too, however, i would not have allowed it to spill over into my post... It's not helpful.
Congrats to the rest of the crew. Takes big b@lls to take it off the other guy, even if you're a captain yourself - Well done Paul.
Horrifying. Glad you are alright. Can understand why you are P!$$€d off - began my career down the back and have utmost admiration for the guys who still do it. Hope you can get back into it soon.
Sargod.
Stand by what i said though. You don't do an issue justice if you post second hand information in an aggressive manner. Had one of my mates just called me and told me that story i would have been furious too, however, i would not have allowed it to spill over into my post... It's not helpful.
Congrats to the rest of the crew. Takes big b@lls to take it off the other guy, even if you're a captain yourself - Well done Paul.
Is this the once young Dave Ellis that crewed S-58T's centuries ago?
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MOR
Angelonawire
There is no reason that you could not put in the MOR yourself. That way, the authorities have to get involved. You may take some flack from your company but it may be the only way to bring people to account.
Just do it, it may save someones life.
There is no reason that you could not put in the MOR yourself. That way, the authorities have to get involved. You may take some flack from your company but it may be the only way to bring people to account.
Just do it, it may save someones life.
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I am disgusted at the hysterical diatribe on this thread and I would not normally stoop so low to reply.
However:
I am fully aware of the incident and the abuse is directed towards a very capable and experienced ex forces pilot who, as far as I am aware, always takes the safety of the winchman/casualty very seriously.
It was indeed a serious incident and the AAIB are being fully involved. You cannot pull the wool on the AAIB/CAA! Or the HUMS
Plus you own report direct to the CAA if you wish
The impression given in these posts is that he has wantonly abandoned the crewman/survivor’s safety for no good reason.
It concerns me that if there was a perceived lack of training or CRM in the run up to this incident then why it has not been addressed. Surely you cannot hoodwink the whole crewmen team into flying with someone who is persistently below standard year after year? Is that what you are saying?
My experience is that rear crew are not backward in coming forward if things are not going right either during training or before a winching task.
Surely we do dummy after dummy until its judged safe to winch.
It obviously went pear shaped on the lift and he did what was best at the time to save the aircraft and rest of the crew following some sort of problem.
I also know that the Pilot is big enough and ugly enough to take criticism directly as he has requested. Not foul mouthed hysterical abuse second hand.
If there is anything that we can all learn ( and I am sure there is) then lets here it, and if you must use this forum lets behave like professionals.
However:
I am fully aware of the incident and the abuse is directed towards a very capable and experienced ex forces pilot who, as far as I am aware, always takes the safety of the winchman/casualty very seriously.
It was indeed a serious incident and the AAIB are being fully involved. You cannot pull the wool on the AAIB/CAA! Or the HUMS
Plus you own report direct to the CAA if you wish
The impression given in these posts is that he has wantonly abandoned the crewman/survivor’s safety for no good reason.
It concerns me that if there was a perceived lack of training or CRM in the run up to this incident then why it has not been addressed. Surely you cannot hoodwink the whole crewmen team into flying with someone who is persistently below standard year after year? Is that what you are saying?
My experience is that rear crew are not backward in coming forward if things are not going right either during training or before a winching task.
Surely we do dummy after dummy until its judged safe to winch.
It obviously went pear shaped on the lift and he did what was best at the time to save the aircraft and rest of the crew following some sort of problem.
I also know that the Pilot is big enough and ugly enough to take criticism directly as he has requested. Not foul mouthed hysterical abuse second hand.
If there is anything that we can all learn ( and I am sure there is) then lets here it, and if you must use this forum lets behave like professionals.
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Barndweller
"Stand by what i said though."
Good for you. Yours and the other posts criticising sargod's now edited post were justfied IMHO.
This is a public forum and such an unrestrained post condemning someone in such a vitriolic way based on second-hand information was way OTT.
Thank God angelonawire escaped as he did from what must have been a terrifying experience, but the fact is we've heard only one side at the moment.
The pilot's ID is known to some, and won't be too difficult for some others to find out.
Please bear in mind that the pilot isn't here to defend himself/ give his account of what happened.
Heliport
"Stand by what i said though."
Good for you. Yours and the other posts criticising sargod's now edited post were justfied IMHO.
This is a public forum and such an unrestrained post condemning someone in such a vitriolic way based on second-hand information was way OTT.
Thank God angelonawire escaped as he did from what must have been a terrifying experience, but the fact is we've heard only one side at the moment.
The pilot's ID is known to some, and won't be too difficult for some others to find out.
Please bear in mind that the pilot isn't here to defend himself/ give his account of what happened.
Heliport
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Presstransdown
If you read all through the thread, you will note that a larger number of contributors are concerned in the way in which the information was presented in the first instance, whether it is totally true or otherwise. Not knowing the pilot in question, although I probably will know him from old, I would like to think that he did not abandon the crewman/survivor's safety, but that there is something more to this whole incident than meets the eye of some of the chaps out there prepared to condemn him. Has anybody considered what a massive dose of the leans might do at the wrong moment for instance. Did the other pilot recognise the symptoms in time etc.........
Let's not prejudge the outcome of the inquiry and be thankful that it was not worse than it actually was.
As I said before, there will doubtlessly be lessons for all concerned from the inquiry.
The impression given in these posts is that he has wantonly abandoned the crewman/survivor’s safety for no good reason.
Let's not prejudge the outcome of the inquiry and be thankful that it was not worse than it actually was.
As I said before, there will doubtlessly be lessons for all concerned from the inquiry.
Flyer43, I thoroughly agree with you on this - I am glad that Angel is safe and well (and it is a reminder that most of the brave and dangerous stuff in SAR is done outside the aircraft) but it is clear that the incident is far from a 'fat useless pr**k abandoning the winchman and casualty'.
If a pilot is 'not happy' in the overhead then it is usually because he has insufficient references to maintain the hover and all the shouting in the world from the winch-op is not going to help. Departing the overhead at 40-60 kts sounds a lot like disorientation to me and it can happen to anyone.
I thought that Bristows used a version of what we call the polycon so that the winchman can hear the intercom even when on the deck - this would have let angel know it was not a good time to be on the hook.
Situations like this occur sometimes which is why we have a cable cut facility to prevent the winchman being badly injured if the aircraft moves due to engine failure or the like.
It may well be that angel is completely justified in his opinion of the pilot but while he is not on this forum to defend himself and an inquiry is underway it might be better to give him the benfit of the doubt rather than villifying him publicly.
If a pilot is 'not happy' in the overhead then it is usually because he has insufficient references to maintain the hover and all the shouting in the world from the winch-op is not going to help. Departing the overhead at 40-60 kts sounds a lot like disorientation to me and it can happen to anyone.
I thought that Bristows used a version of what we call the polycon so that the winchman can hear the intercom even when on the deck - this would have let angel know it was not a good time to be on the hook.
Situations like this occur sometimes which is why we have a cable cut facility to prevent the winchman being badly injured if the aircraft moves due to engine failure or the like.
It may well be that angel is completely justified in his opinion of the pilot but while he is not on this forum to defend himself and an inquiry is underway it might be better to give him the benfit of the doubt rather than villifying him publicly.
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I'm a Bristow SAR pilot and I have to say that I have become increasingly alarmed as this thread has developed and I'm not surprised that the Moderator is getting a little twitched.........there have been a lot of good sensible comments but also some very misguided and unprofessional ones too.
Angelonawire, all I can say having read your contributions to this and other threads is that two key facts emerge:
1. You survived your recent incident/accident.
2. You are leaving Bristows to work for Bond.
and I for one am very pleased on both counts.
MM
Angelonawire, all I can say having read your contributions to this and other threads is that two key facts emerge:
1. You survived your recent incident/accident.
2. You are leaving Bristows to work for Bond.
and I for one am very pleased on both counts.
MM
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We have met, and you seemed like a reasonable bloke so I'll give you some advice.
Rather than pre-judging, let the inquiry run it's course and play an active role in any debriefs (that means speaking to ALL of the crew concerned)
If you do that then other crews may benefit from your experience.
MM
Rather than pre-judging, let the inquiry run it's course and play an active role in any debriefs (that means speaking to ALL of the crew concerned)
If you do that then other crews may benefit from your experience.
MM
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Boat axis v Aircraft axis??
Angel, very glad you are in one piece.
Changing tack from the debate about appropriate posting.
I'm curious about the reference to "ex-RAF pilots changing from aircraft to boat axis in the middle of a transfer".
If I have understood RAF SAR SOPs correctly, there are circumstances where we would change from boat to aircraft axis during a transfer (but only if we had lost sight, which shouldn't happen in a properly-planned evolution), but I can't see why we would do it the other way round. I am aware that the RAF use of boat axis, for standard decks only, is unusual (though not unique worldwide), but it does seem to work.
There may be a good learning point here. Are you and / or Mountainman able to share your view in more detail?
Sven
Changing tack from the debate about appropriate posting.
I'm curious about the reference to "ex-RAF pilots changing from aircraft to boat axis in the middle of a transfer".
If I have understood RAF SAR SOPs correctly, there are circumstances where we would change from boat to aircraft axis during a transfer (but only if we had lost sight, which shouldn't happen in a properly-planned evolution), but I can't see why we would do it the other way round. I am aware that the RAF use of boat axis, for standard decks only, is unusual (though not unique worldwide), but it does seem to work.
There may be a good learning point here. Are you and / or Mountainman able to share your view in more detail?
Sven
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Angelonawire. Having read your account on the rescue i want to wish you a speedy recovery and some peace of mind after such an incredible incident. 
All the boys are wishing you the best here.
All the boys are wishing you the best here.
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Also knowing a few of the guys up at Sumburgh I have read this post with interest!
As an ex-military SAR pilot, with many a successful mission behind me, I have been out on the dark and stormy nights winching to small vessels with a member of the crew risking life and limb on the end of a small wire. The 'boat axis' one is a new one for me, we discussed the job as a crew and judged the situation dependant upon the conditions and task. I do feel however that if breakaway action is required, for whatever reason, then 50-60kts lateral motion seems, in my opinion, somewhat excessive.
I don't know the whole story so can only offer my opinions as I see them that, with a live wire the aircraft must be handled gently as the lives of the crew and the casualty are at risk. Even a potentially catastrophic failure should be called with 'cut cut cut' with both front and back going for the cutter. What I haven't seen is anything suggesting a mechanical problem leading to the breakaway or any other supporting evidence hence I don't feel that accusations should fly.
Angelonawire, I hope that you enjoy Bond, I've always found the crewies to be a fun, down to earth bunch and have always enjoyed the flying and the banter. To the rest, SAR is flying in the face of the storm. Very few people get themselves into such trouble when the suns shining and the weathers nice. So can we stop the mud slinging, we all know that we are far more professional than that.
Duck down and wait
As an ex-military SAR pilot, with many a successful mission behind me, I have been out on the dark and stormy nights winching to small vessels with a member of the crew risking life and limb on the end of a small wire. The 'boat axis' one is a new one for me, we discussed the job as a crew and judged the situation dependant upon the conditions and task. I do feel however that if breakaway action is required, for whatever reason, then 50-60kts lateral motion seems, in my opinion, somewhat excessive.
I don't know the whole story so can only offer my opinions as I see them that, with a live wire the aircraft must be handled gently as the lives of the crew and the casualty are at risk. Even a potentially catastrophic failure should be called with 'cut cut cut' with both front and back going for the cutter. What I haven't seen is anything suggesting a mechanical problem leading to the breakaway or any other supporting evidence hence I don't feel that accusations should fly.
Angelonawire, I hope that you enjoy Bond, I've always found the crewies to be a fun, down to earth bunch and have always enjoyed the flying and the banter. To the rest, SAR is flying in the face of the storm. Very few people get themselves into such trouble when the suns shining and the weathers nice. So can we stop the mud slinging, we all know that we are far more professional than that.
Duck down and wait
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Angelonawire
I think you are wrong for posting what you posted, I would like to come and tell you myself, as I was invited in your post.
I shall be back at Scatsta on the 20th of October. I do not know who you are because you use a pseudo. I only know we work on the same island.You can contact me at Scatsta or at [email protected]
Looking forward to seeing you
Patrick
I think you are wrong for posting what you posted, I would like to come and tell you myself, as I was invited in your post.
I shall be back at Scatsta on the 20th of October. I do not know who you are because you use a pseudo. I only know we work on the same island.You can contact me at Scatsta or at [email protected]
Looking forward to seeing you
Patrick
I truly sympathise with angel for the experience that he has suffered, and I wish him a speedy recovery. Life is too precious to waste, and the man on the wire places his in the hands of the rest of the crew on a regular basis.
However, having read ALL of the posts on this subject in their original forms, before any editing or removal was carried out, I would like to add one further definition of contempt to those quoted recently by angel;
The general view that, in my opinion, angel has for all pilots - contempt
However, having read ALL of the posts on this subject in their original forms, before any editing or removal was carried out, I would like to add one further definition of contempt to those quoted recently by angel;
The general view that, in my opinion, angel has for all pilots - contempt
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angelonawire
"I have now been threatened with confrontation from a scary scatsta pilot, I'm sure you can track me down...(bring some friends)"
That's a curious response. In several of the posts you've now deleted, you challenged anyone who disagreed with what you'd written to tell you to face to face.
I can understand you being upset after such a terrifying ordeal, whatever turns out to be the cause, but FWIW I think your wide-ranging personal attacks on the man on a public forum went way too far and I'm pleased you've deleted them.
I'm sure I'm not the only one wishing we could hear the pilot's account of this incident, but it may be he considers this forum isn't the appropriate place to give it. If so, I think he's right.
BTW, I've got no axe to grind. I have enormous respect for SAR crews - the guys down the back as well as pilots.
"I have now been threatened with confrontation from a scary scatsta pilot, I'm sure you can track me down...(bring some friends)"
That's a curious response. In several of the posts you've now deleted, you challenged anyone who disagreed with what you'd written to tell you to face to face.
I can understand you being upset after such a terrifying ordeal, whatever turns out to be the cause, but FWIW I think your wide-ranging personal attacks on the man on a public forum went way too far and I'm pleased you've deleted them.
I'm sure I'm not the only one wishing we could hear the pilot's account of this incident, but it may be he considers this forum isn't the appropriate place to give it. If so, I think he's right.
BTW, I've got no axe to grind. I have enormous respect for SAR crews - the guys down the back as well as pilots.