Enstrom Corner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,334
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From: Cambridgeshire, UK
"Come with me in a ENSTROM 280 and I will shut the throttle for 15 seconds before I have to lower the collective!"
Wowsers! How does this work? There has got to be some kind of flywheel in the drivetrain...
Mart
Wowsers! How does this work? There has got to be some kind of flywheel in the drivetrain...
Mart
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,111
Likes: 118
212 man
Both machines use the Allison C20 series, they do use the same amount of fuel, just the same as the 206 at max continuous uses the same amount of fuel as a 500 at max continuous, which is around 200 lbs of fuel / hr ( approx 25 gals). If you look at the Allison specs you will find the fuel flow charts at the various power settings. I agree that if each helicopter type does not use the same amount of power from the engine then obviously the fuel flow will be different eg Schweizer 333, but 206 500 and 480 use the same amount of power. The C20R series engine uses about 5 gals more than a C20B it is used in 500's as the hot and high varient as it pulls less tot for a given Tq setting.
Both machines use the Allison C20 series, they do use the same amount of fuel, just the same as the 206 at max continuous uses the same amount of fuel as a 500 at max continuous, which is around 200 lbs of fuel / hr ( approx 25 gals). If you look at the Allison specs you will find the fuel flow charts at the various power settings. I agree that if each helicopter type does not use the same amount of power from the engine then obviously the fuel flow will be different eg Schweizer 333, but 206 500 and 480 use the same amount of power. The C20R series engine uses about 5 gals more than a C20B it is used in 500's as the hot and high varient as it pulls less tot for a given Tq setting.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 292
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From: At Work
R's B's and J's have the turbine exhaust stack facing up. W's have the turbine exhaust stack facing down. Same basic engine. You can not simply turn an R, B or J upside down as the gearbox would not work.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,848
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From: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
R22 v Enstrom??
Any of you auzzie mustering pilots out there have a comparison between the R22 and the F series enstrom for mustering operations??.
looking mainly at cost and effiancy, TBO's, manouverability, maintanance problems, Ect.
cheers, Wiz.
looking mainly at cost and effiancy, TBO's, manouverability, maintanance problems, Ect.
cheers, Wiz.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: in swag
Never seen an enstom mustering...so that will tell you something.
try R-22 V H-300, now your talking
Short term cost a R-22, Long term cost go the H-300
R22 is faster ( so you get back to the pug quicker)
H-300 is fair more manuavable.( yes I know I cant spell)
Check out the post on Mike Keyden, with him flying a 300. and that will give you an idea of about 40% of what a 300 can and will do..
Ask any old mustering pilot that flew 300's back in the 80's... They a fantastic machine
try R-22 V H-300, now your talking
Short term cost a R-22, Long term cost go the H-300
R22 is faster ( so you get back to the pug quicker)
H-300 is fair more manuavable.( yes I know I cant spell)
Check out the post on Mike Keyden, with him flying a 300. and that will give you an idea of about 40% of what a 300 can and will do..
Ask any old mustering pilot that flew 300's back in the 80's... They a fantastic machine
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 348
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From: Downwind
Wiz,
Depending on the model, I suspect you'll find the Enstrom a bit expensive. The A models are cheap to buy and pretty good to run. They're also a bit short on power, but you'll have a hard time breaking them - they're overbuilt, really.
The first time I looked at the tail rotor I saw a couple of straws, but I suppose the chill that runs down the spine brings care and respect. Might be your limiting factor in the heat.
Not sure about the C, did they have the turbo?
The F has the turbo and has been developed into quite a nice thing, but the DOC's are closer to the R44 than the R22.
Lots of inertia, a very solid feel, heavier controls but doesn't take long to get used to it. Autos way, way better than anything else & I've never heard of ground resonance.
The blades are on condition, therefore they don't fall off!
I've never heard of one mustering either, but there's quite a history of them spraying so they can't be that bad, the modern mustering techniques might suit them much better than the old.
Reefdog,
Do you mean Dennis Kenyon? If so, his Enstrom routine is near enough to identical to his 300 routine. Extremely impressive, and I'm not aware of him doing anything similar in a Robbie.
Couldn't believe he did it in the turbine enstrom as well, I wonder if he'll do it in the 333?
Depending on the model, I suspect you'll find the Enstrom a bit expensive. The A models are cheap to buy and pretty good to run. They're also a bit short on power, but you'll have a hard time breaking them - they're overbuilt, really.
The first time I looked at the tail rotor I saw a couple of straws, but I suppose the chill that runs down the spine brings care and respect. Might be your limiting factor in the heat.
Not sure about the C, did they have the turbo?
The F has the turbo and has been developed into quite a nice thing, but the DOC's are closer to the R44 than the R22.
Lots of inertia, a very solid feel, heavier controls but doesn't take long to get used to it. Autos way, way better than anything else & I've never heard of ground resonance.
The blades are on condition, therefore they don't fall off!
I've never heard of one mustering either, but there's quite a history of them spraying so they can't be that bad, the modern mustering techniques might suit them much better than the old.
Reefdog,
Do you mean Dennis Kenyon? If so, his Enstrom routine is near enough to identical to his 300 routine. Extremely impressive, and I'm not aware of him doing anything similar in a Robbie.
Couldn't believe he did it in the turbine enstrom as well, I wonder if he'll do it in the 333?
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,848
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From: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Thanks for the replies guys. I was wondering about the enstrom because they seem to be cheaper to buy than the robbo and have longer time on a lot of the components.
the one little glitch that seem fairly obviouse, is the lack of maintanance facilitys that work on them.
I was guessing it was a nasty little circle that might have kept them from the mustering game. not many about = not to many LAME's required = not to many bought and used due to the dificulty having it serviced and worked on.
not much slower than the Robbo (Ok, a few knots) and uses a bit more fuel, but hey, the 47s use a lot more fuel and delivers a lot less.
Havn't heard of to many pranging in the bush either........... but that could be directly proportional to the number of them out there.
Any one have any figures on them? costs, weights, speeds, Tbo on parts, Ect.
the one little glitch that seem fairly obviouse, is the lack of maintanance facilitys that work on them.
I was guessing it was a nasty little circle that might have kept them from the mustering game. not many about = not to many LAME's required = not to many bought and used due to the dificulty having it serviced and worked on.
not much slower than the Robbo (Ok, a few knots) and uses a bit more fuel, but hey, the 47s use a lot more fuel and delivers a lot less.
Havn't heard of to many pranging in the bush either........... but that could be directly proportional to the number of them out there.
Any one have any figures on them? costs, weights, speeds, Tbo on parts, Ect.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: GIRT, BY SEA
For the turbo models:
1. Bitch to re-start when hot
2. Three minute cooldown
3. Needs the turbo just to fly - 29" was the minimum power required in the cruise, so lose the turbo and down you go.
4. Horrible things
5. See 4.
6. Ditto.
7. Engine dipstick seemed like 6 feet long with three twists and turns to get to the oil, easy to bend it when in a rush
8. Horrible things....
1. Bitch to re-start when hot
2. Three minute cooldown
3. Needs the turbo just to fly - 29" was the minimum power required in the cruise, so lose the turbo and down you go.
4. Horrible things
5. See 4.
6. Ditto.
7. Engine dipstick seemed like 6 feet long with three twists and turns to get to the oil, easy to bend it when in a rush
8. Horrible things....
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
From: Downwind
The Enstrom website has a data sheet that gives weights & performance. There's been an Enstrom executive appear on these forums on a 480 thread somewhere who should be able to give you the overhaul times.
Sticking with the F model, I believe the transmissions are an exchange item(?) but the engine & the inspections should be able to be done in your average workshop. I understand there's some issue about the turbo having a different approval. Probably not much of an issue, even if true. Check this with your workshop.
The current model's DOC equates to about Aus $200 an hour. This puts it under the R44, but there are a few people starting to muster with R44's to give themselves more margin. I suppose if I really had to, I'd rather have an Enstrom's inertia and boot than either robbo's kiddy seats, which probably have the esky under them anyway.
On the other hand, the blades droop quite a bit at rest so you get to relax a bit while everything stops - there's no brake. While a bit better than the robbos, the turbo will be VERY hot not far off the ground, still well within spinifex reach. Look after your turbo, you won't go far without it. Some people have a sworn hatred of the clutch arrangement. There's a whole series of things in slightly strange places that some people hate and others just accept.
If I were taking the cocky or training a new kid for the block, no contest. You won't have problems carrying the weight, the fat ones won't squeeze you onto the skid, there's enough power for any DA you're likely to encounter and most importantly you won't ever have to buy the first round at the end of the day!
You don't have to buy a whole helicopter just to get floats either.
And anyway badbreath, isn't beauty in the eye of the beerholder after all?
Sticking with the F model, I believe the transmissions are an exchange item(?) but the engine & the inspections should be able to be done in your average workshop. I understand there's some issue about the turbo having a different approval. Probably not much of an issue, even if true. Check this with your workshop.
The current model's DOC equates to about Aus $200 an hour. This puts it under the R44, but there are a few people starting to muster with R44's to give themselves more margin. I suppose if I really had to, I'd rather have an Enstrom's inertia and boot than either robbo's kiddy seats, which probably have the esky under them anyway.
On the other hand, the blades droop quite a bit at rest so you get to relax a bit while everything stops - there's no brake. While a bit better than the robbos, the turbo will be VERY hot not far off the ground, still well within spinifex reach. Look after your turbo, you won't go far without it. Some people have a sworn hatred of the clutch arrangement. There's a whole series of things in slightly strange places that some people hate and others just accept.
If I were taking the cocky or training a new kid for the block, no contest. You won't have problems carrying the weight, the fat ones won't squeeze you onto the skid, there's enough power for any DA you're likely to encounter and most importantly you won't ever have to buy the first round at the end of the day!
You don't have to buy a whole helicopter just to get floats either.
And anyway badbreath, isn't beauty in the eye of the beerholder after all?
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 7
From: OS SX2063
The NTSB Database has 35 recorded fatal incidents in Enstroms since 1970.
I think its correct to say an Enstrom has never had a fatal accident in the UK.
V.
I think its correct to say an Enstrom has never had a fatal accident in the UK.
V.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Port Townsend,WA. USA
Enstrom buying....
I just completed the Enstrom maintenance class at the factory with the idea of buying an older model. Here are my thoughts:
The Enstrom is marketed as a a kind of flashy sportscar would be marketed, to be bought by someone that doesnt need to ask about cost much. I heard about $2000 for this and $14000 for that and so on and so on.... I lost interest.
The costs may be comparable with other helos... I just cannot afford any helicopter is the real truth.
Enstrom is overbuilt, heavy and has about half the fatal crashes of the R22 based on by own crude look at NTSB reports. The blades dont fall off. But the blades might disbond after 30 years and you need a new set ($30,000) And you need a $15 or $20k chadwick to keep it tracked. Hence my loss of interest. But if I had a real need for a helo I would buy an Enstrom I think.
I just completed the Enstrom maintenance class at the factory with the idea of buying an older model. Here are my thoughts:
The Enstrom is marketed as a a kind of flashy sportscar would be marketed, to be bought by someone that doesnt need to ask about cost much. I heard about $2000 for this and $14000 for that and so on and so on.... I lost interest.
The costs may be comparable with other helos... I just cannot afford any helicopter is the real truth.
Enstrom is overbuilt, heavy and has about half the fatal crashes of the R22 based on by own crude look at NTSB reports. The blades dont fall off. But the blades might disbond after 30 years and you need a new set ($30,000) And you need a $15 or $20k chadwick to keep it tracked. Hence my loss of interest. But if I had a real need for a helo I would buy an Enstrom I think.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Never flown the type myself, but there were a couple of comments on the 480 in the Enstrom Corner thread.
I/C
I/C
Better red than ...
Joined: Aug 2004
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,415
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From: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Enstroms
Are there any Enstroms in the UK with pop out float kits fitted? (possibly a turbine rather than a piston engine)??
In curiosity
h-r
In curiosity
h-r
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 3
From: Escrick York england
yes there is at least 2 with floats on N485A and GOSKP at least they had them on when i had them [i belive N485A in in progress of changing to the g reg g meek i think ] both 480 turbines dont know any pistons
regards steve
regards steve
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: uk
pop out floats?
Does anyone know if is possible to fit pop outs to a 280c? as far as I can see its fixed only. how much speed do the fixed floats knock off?
Price of a mrgb overhaul ?
anything I should look out for ? sorry all the questions but in the process of buying one and any info would be gratefully received
also anyone have the poh in pdf (so I can swot up before it arrives)
Thanks
fd
Price of a mrgb overhaul ?
anything I should look out for ? sorry all the questions but in the process of buying one and any info would be gratefully received
also anyone have the poh in pdf (so I can swot up before it arrives)
Thanks
fd