Enstrom Corner

[KK Singh]

Highest landing of Enstrom 380 B

Congratulations! I have landed this helicopter at 5500 feet only but OAT was 30 degree Centigrate with 2 passangers and my helicopter was air conditioned!!
Well, the helipad was 50 mts in length and I had head wind of approx 10 kts.

[lvflyer]

Am I nuts to buy a 280C

First I apologize for the long windedness, but I value the opinion of the members of this forum.I'm having a difficult time determining the value calculation of an Enstrom 280C Shark and whether I should commit to an investment in it.I defer to the experienced on this forum. I read the entire Enstrom Corner and learned a lot about the Enstrom and determined if I were to invest in a helicopter it would be an Enstrom. The question is how much I should invest. I am a fixed wing multi-engine commercial instrument pilot with private privileges in single engine land and rotorcraft. I have over 1000 PIC with 150 in R22 and some in C300 and a couple hours in a Safari.I do not see the utility value in the R22 and don't like the idea of retiring a perfectly good airframe before its time. I've considered buying into a Safari due to the operating cost being around the same of my 1968 Mooney M20-F, but I don't think I can do the commercial things to help justify ownership.If the value was right and I was able to find a partner for my Mooney it would be a no brainer and would buy this 280C. I can't believe how dead the market is. I have offered my Mooney over 10 years for $35k half ownership and even advertised I would finance and take payments. If that was available to me at the time I got my ticket I would have jumped on it. I am in my mid 50s and on a fixed income less than $2000 per month. My living arrangement costs next to nothing so more than half is available for aviation. There are no helicopters to rent around here at this time and when there were it cost $280 wet for a C300. I haven't had the opportunity to fly for over 3 years. I can afford the costs without income producing activity with the helicopter, but I plan on generating some income in the way of rides, community services, and skydiving. Although I live in a small farming community in the center of the country I think I can stay busy. You can only justify so many $400 hamburgers. My Mooney sits in the hangar because I no longer need cross country transportation. My thought is that if the selling price is depressed due to the market pressures I think their will be upward pressure in the future when the economy changes, which is almost guaranteed when this administration is removed. I was arranging a 50% partnership in this 77 Shark and at the last minute the seller pulled out and said he had to sell outright offering it in full at $90k. My question to you all is how do I figure a base value if all of the life limited parts are expired, which they aren't, but I can extrapolate from there. I can provide a picture of the time left on the components. The Lamiflex bearings are due in a month. This Shark has been meticulously maintained and looks great. Will it retain its value except for life limited parts?Any comments are appreciated.

[rotorboater]

Seems a bit expensive for a 77 - probably non turbo as well. I sold my 82 turbo 280C a couple of years ago for under $60k and that had a zero time engine & new blades, I may well have got more if I waited but some of the machines that were for sale then are still on the market and not being used, piston helicopters like being used and unless they have been inhibited properly they can become problems.

I think there are an awful lot of underused machines out there for sale that the owners are looking for silly money for.

[lvflyer]

It is a Turbo. What would the value be if everything that was life limited was at zero time?

Total Time 6450
Annual 06/13

These are times left on components

Lamiflexes due in September
Over Clutch 2031
T/R Blade 782
T/R Blade 1581
T/R Grip 3882
T/R Grip 4581
FWD Flex Pack 1052
AFT Flx Pack 1052
Tach Drive Belts 523 days
Left Idler bearing 232
Rt Idler bearing 232
Main XMSN ASSY 384
T/R GBX 604
Engine 723
Turbocharger 312

[lvflyer]

Does anyone have any suggestions on other forums or other resources, besides Trade a Plane and other classifieds, how to find the value of this Enstrom if all the times on the life limited parts were at 0? I can extropolate from there on the asking price I think. Is there another section of this forum where I should be asking this? I have discovered the average altitude of helicopter drops are 5k to 6k so it may be feasable to cover actual costs to fly around my area at drop events. What is the actual density altitude that a turbo charged 280C can hover out of ground effect? Will hovering at those altitudes allow enough time to autorotate with the high inertia blades?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Will hovering at those altitudes allow enough time to autorotate with the high inertia blades?

Do you mean from 5-6k?

[Trying not to laugh].

[lvflyer]

Yes first I understand a turbo charged Enstrom can hover at altitude and isn't a hovering jump preferred by jumpers. Can an Enstrom gain forward momentum from 5k to 6k feet agl enough for a autorotation? I'm not talking about total and abrupt stop of the main rotors I'm referring to say a turbo charger failure or something less catastrophic. If it is an issue then I get the impression 30mph is acceptable by jumpers, but then again if something happens can an Enstrom gain 30mph to enter autorotation if required?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

I actually thought it was a jest.

Just to put things into perspective, a former colleague of mine ended-up driving Squirrels (or Astars as they call them over the pond) in Canada and I recall him telling me about the training he received for recovery from engine failure while long-lining/load-lifting.

The Squirrel's blade inertia is workable, not as comfortable as the Bells but its ok. He said that from around 100ft. (and in a practice situation over an airfield) they could easily recover by nosing forward, gaining slight momentum and then initiating the flare. What he described as more interesting was the practice scenarios from half the height, ie. 40-50ft. These too were recoverable but required lightning reaction, a slight nosing forward (to simulate moving away from the load and to gain a fraction of momentum) and then straight into a flare/collective cushioned landing.

Now if the Squirrel, which is a relatively heavy helicopter compared to the 280, possessing what I would describe as medium-inertia blades, can pull-off a recovery from the very centre of the dead man's curve then I assure you that a 280 will have no problem maintaining rrpm after an engine failure from five or six thousand feet!

Regarding parachute drops - you don't need to execute a free air hover at 5,000ft. to let the boys out. A slow steady forward speed is more than sufficient (below 20 or so kts your ASI will be unreliable in any case and you might better monitor your speed via GPS) but again, jumpers don't usually ask for a zero forward speed jump and even if they do all you need do is put the Enstrom into a gentle climb and from low speed you will kill off most if not all of your forward airspeed.

However - I have to say that I can think of better helis to use for this purpose but, if works for you!

Overall the 280C is a great helicopter for private flyers and, in general terms, depending on your specific environment, comes with my solid recommendation.

Regarding values, Enstrom themselves may be willing to offer you a guideline and there may be some information in the Helicopter Blue Book if you can get your hands on a copy.

[lvflyer]

Thanks, After posting I did some more forum reading and also discovered they relally don't want a hover drop so they can stabilize. I'm sure you can see I am new to this idea. I have an opportunity to buy a local 1977 Enstrom 280C Shark Turbo that I know was maintained meticulously and looks great. I just need a way to justify owning it privately. I'm 57 and this is in place of owning a house so it's taking all I have. I have zero access to rotorcraft around here so right now this is my only option if I ever want to fly rotorcraft again without travelling some distance.

[chopjock]

can an Enstrom gain 30mph to enter autorotation if required?

You don't need 30mph to enter autorotation, you can even do it backwards if you like.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

lvflyer - can I urge you strongly not to sacrifice home ownership in preference for a 1970's Enstrom or any other material object for that matter.

By the sound of it you must really love flying and that is commendable but, once this little adventure is fulfilled you may well find yourself in the unenviable position of owning a *depreciating asset in which you cannot even boil a kettle to make a cup of tea!

May I suggest you maintain a home for your future and put aside what you can for the occasional renting of a helicopter where you can put a couple of hours in every few months or so - if you don't have a valid licence then you can do this with an instructor on board.

Never get into helicopter ownership and operating unless you can comfortably afford to do so and certainly never jeopardise or exchange your home for something like a helicopter.

Hope you don't mind me expressing my views on this.

*Not just annual depreciation on value but the fact that the asset will depreciate exponentially if you miss out on scheduled maintenance requirements.

[Overdrive]

Well, someone had to say it...

[lvflyer]

I appreciate your concern and believe me I have considered this. At this time I have a roof over my head that has been left to me by my parents with minimal cost for living. I am single now, having been married for 18 years ending in 2001. I have no dependents. There are no helicopters around this area. There use to be years ago, but they are all gone. Worse case scenario is that I have to pay for a hangar at $1200 per year and then sell the Enstrom at a loss when I can't afford the annual. Just like my Mooney that sits in a hangar and doesn't fly much. I'm 57 and running out of time to enjoy my dream for awhile. The Enstrom will allow me the opportunity to do things that might pay for my flying, while the Mooney is only good for cross-country which places it in the air transport arena. The helicopter may put me in front of aviation people that may open some doors whereas the Mooney doesn't. Use to be that you could go to the airport on a weekend and hang around in the hangars, but now it's like a ghost town so providing the helicopter for rides at fly-ins will at least keep me in the aviation community. I have been saving to build a Safari or buy a built Safari or Hummingbird, but the opportunity to own an Enstrom for the same or less has presented itself. It is a big decision and I am still mulling it over.

[heli1]

Go for it.....you only live once and it's only money. Compared to some an Enstrom is still a good buy....still in production and spares available. I bought my own helicopter to fulfill my dream over 20 years ago...it costs me an arm and a leg to keep it airworthy as I don't use it commercially but I can fly when and where I want at a drop of the hat and enjoy every minute of flying I get.

[lvflyer]

Thanks one and all for your comments. I bit the bullet and am now owner of N624H. I would like to keep in touch as I begin my journey. I got the seller to take care of all the calendar timed items so I don't have to worry about any parts that need replaced, except for unexpected items of course, for 5 years and now tach time items for over 350 hours. I can at least get some flying in before anything major. Blue goes up.

[IFMU]

Congrats on your new Enstrom. Regarding autos from high altitude hover, my instructor had me do vertical autos from 1500 AGL in an F28A with a recovery to forward flight by 700' AGL. It was supposed to be by 1000' AGL but I was mesmerized by the sight picture of the ground gently rising up around me. By 700' it looked more like it was out to smite me but it was an easy push forward to a recovery. The A model couldn't hover up there. I really liked the machine.
Bryan

[lvflyer]

Thanks for all your comments. I went ahead and made the purchase with the understanding the seller would take care of all the calendar due components replaced so I don't have to worry about any of those for 5 years and tach time components for 380 hours. I should be able to log 500 hours before anything major on the time limited list, according to Roger Sharkey. I hope so. I flew it yesterday and with the seller's assistance tried to learn all the quirks and personalities. The Lamiflex bearings are surely worn because the instruments panel was difficult to read at times due to the shaking. It made it difficult to keep the needles in the green and not overboost. I discovered that I reverted to my R22 training and used the collective rather than throttle as primary RPM control and quickly lost RPM. I learned how to milk it to regain RPM, but this is going to be a moderate learning curve. So to all the experienced older model 280C Enstrom pilots, ie. no correlator, is there any practice routines to get used to the throttle control and turbo lag? I think the seller had the friction on the throttle a bit tight. I don't know if that was the reason for my hand getting tired or more of an apprehensive death grip. Do you keep it tight? I found myself chasing the RPMs to the point where I didn't even talk on the radio. The seller, even though he is not an instructor, did tell me that he was surprised how well I did even though I haven't flown rotorcraft for 4 years. I've got the gift, but I refer to my fellow pilots for all the secrets. I found myself not using enough pedal as well, but that is due to the fact I fly a Mooney, very little need. So chime in with all your training suggestions. I don't think going up with an experienced instructor will give me anymore than I already got from the seller. He has over 1000 hours in this helicopter. I think it is just a matter of getting use to it and that will require time. So what exercises worked best for you all?

[rick1128]

Loosen the throttle friction if you need to. The only thing I can say is try to lead with the throttle. In time it will become a habit.

As for the shaking. How often did the previous owner lube the machine? If he kept it well lubed, it shouldn't be a major issue. Many times the shaking is caused by the dampers. All you need is one damper tighter or looser than the others. Depending on how tight they are, they can get air bubbles in them and they have to be purged.

Since you haven't flown a helicopter in the last 4 years, I would strongly suggest that you get some dual in it, prior to going off by yourself. The machine does have a few quirks. And if you ue the Enstrom Program Insurance, you will have to do that anyway.

Good luck, I enjoyed mine very much.

[chopjock]

On my 280C I used to hold the blades by the tips and swing them forwards and backwards to loosen the dampers, then take it out for a good thrashing, wing overs and stall turns etc. Did that about once a month and the dampers were fine. loved it to bits.
Autos a treat at 20 kts. Never felt safer in any other heli.

[lvflyer]

Is anyone familiar with the benefits of the optional secondary muffler on these? Is that option available for 77 model and is it worth it?