Enstrom Corner
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American products have got behind the times and when the catching up is achieved the products will be acceptable.
Just take the Bell 430 as an example. Lovely looking ship with good cockpit and cabin. Systems are old technology. Good engines and rotor head. Tail rotor is vunerable to damage as it sits close to the ground. The ship is heavy and has small fuel tanks. Therefore is suffers from poor payload. It's noisy. Then compare it to the EC155. Modern technology. The commonality of the VEMD, great idea.
Just take the Bell 430 as an example. Lovely looking ship with good cockpit and cabin. Systems are old technology. Good engines and rotor head. Tail rotor is vunerable to damage as it sits close to the ground. The ship is heavy and has small fuel tanks. Therefore is suffers from poor payload. It's noisy. Then compare it to the EC155. Modern technology. The commonality of the VEMD, great idea.
Join Date: May 2001
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I'm rated on both enstroms (tho not current) and regularly fly EC120 and I'll take the latter anyday of the week. Head turner got it right with his comments about 'old technology'.
The visibily is so much better in 120 and the law enforcement agency wanted right seat PIC capability, the 120 can be flown PIC from either seat.
Dave jackson
I beleive the airframe of the 120 is made in the far east as eurocopter want to explore that market.
For a long the American air industries have had a huge share in the market so some healthy competition might make them improve their products.
The EC120 is the next generation of 206's but sadly Bell have sat on 30 year old technology for too long.
The visibily is so much better in 120 and the law enforcement agency wanted right seat PIC capability, the 120 can be flown PIC from either seat.
Dave jackson
I beleive the airframe of the 120 is made in the far east as eurocopter want to explore that market.
For a long the American air industries have had a huge share in the market so some healthy competition might make them improve their products.
The EC120 is the next generation of 206's but sadly Bell have sat on 30 year old technology for too long.
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I don't know about the Enstrom, but the comments regarding French vs American machines are very true. I regularly fly Sikorsky, Bell and Eurocopter helicopters and there's nothing to beat the Eurocopter products for flying enjoyment, much lower maintenance costs and reliability. I spent the first 21 years of my flying career flying Sikorsky or Bell and it was a revelation changing to Eurocopter helicopters. The American manufacturers rely too much on the loyalty of North American customers to American products, despite the fact that so many of them are old, old designs and technology.
I think Nick has made the point very well, because the S92 is about the only new American machine available out there, but the market for helicopters that big is pretty limited.
I think Nick has made the point very well, because the S92 is about the only new American machine available out there, but the market for helicopters that big is pretty limited.
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Yarba,
I have to (gasp!) agree on general principles that the French have shown good ingenuity and freshness in their designs. I see it in their cars, as well. Mostly due to good recent investment, and good sense of innovation, I think.
I have to (gasp!) agree on general principles that the French have shown good ingenuity and freshness in their designs. I see it in their cars, as well. Mostly due to good recent investment, and good sense of innovation, I think.
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Buying an Enstrom
Ref the above ..... first can I declare an interest.
Working from Shoreham Airport in the 70's and early 80's for that super entrepreneur, Roy Spooner, the company held the European distribution rights for the Enstrom product. I was their salesman !!
During that time, I sold 138 of the model F28.s and 280 Sharks and thelater 'dash two' series. It was then the success story of its time, before the Robinson came along and swamped it, mainly for training.
The type is a very fine machine but with some difficult areas of maintenance. Many engineers don't like the type, some won't even maintain them hence the 'Hangar Queens' around the country. But as other engineers will tell you (they know who they are and I'll name names if I'm asked !!) .... when the type is properly maintained and flown fairly regularly, it is without equal in its market.
Fast at around 100mph (VNE 117 mph) AND 11-12 gals per hour, big roomy 5 foot wide cabin, (three comfortable seats abreast) 7 cu ft, 60lb capacity luggage locker, (100lbs in the later versions) super looks (it won Fortune magazines best designed industrial product in the 70's) ...... and the later 'Greg Focella' nose on the 280 Shark made it the best looking helicopter you could buy. IMHO !! .... then terrific handling with nicely co-ordinated controls and as my old publicity blurb always said ..... the type can be trimmed to fly 'hands and feet off.' which I still demonstrate. It is fuel injected of course so no carb ice, engine failure possibilities. 40 usg fuel gives around 250 sm range. The turbo version should be leaned to give 83lb per hour fuel flow and 100mph.
Safety ? There has never been a fatality in the UK in over thirty years of operations. The type 'autorotates' almost as well as the 206. And can be safely autorotated to a full stop ground landing in training as will be demonstrated by many instructors who know the type. And it is 'aerobatic' and has twice won the the world 'freestyle' championships. You can buy an F28A model for around £40k - £45k.
In fact one could be forgiven for wondering why anyone bought anything else !!!
But now the downside! (M/R blades later !!)
1. Difficult to track except by the whizz kids above.
2. Poor payload. Usually quoted as 'underpowered' - when in fact the problem is 'overweight' Most machines have a WPS around 1650lbs. (gross on 28A 2150lbs - but can be utility certified to 2600 !!!)
3. Only 205 bhp on a standard day which at a typical weight on a 30 degree humid day needs a pilot who is really well rrpm aware. (overcome to a large extent on the later 'turbo' models) ...... but we are talking 28A models here.
4. Indifferent factory ownership from time to time, mainly masked by an enthusiastic UK distributor.
5. Engine 'overspeeds' common, hence the Lycoming C1A engine often failing to see its published 1500 hours.
6. Occasional 'chronic' starter motor failings AND starting problems with the 'shower of sparks' starting system.
There are a few more downsides but I won't list them .... but now the M/R blades.
In my view this was the cause of so many lost sales when I was actively involved. And as Steve A points out (600 Driver) (Wish you well Steve) .... he has covered the factory MM points nicely. But as a simple pilot on an initial, non engineer inspection. Yes do the 'tap' test. A tap every inch along the leading edges top and bottom listening for any 'voiding.' This will take you an hour for three blades. The SIL allowable limit is 3 inches but even if its one you are heading for replacement. Both main and tail blades here. Trainling edges for bond separation too. You can see it easily with a m-glass. The root doublers Steve has mentioned, (no voiding sound here) and if you want to know what that sounds like just tap anywhere inboard of the blade span. Its hollow!
The blades are a leading edge 'extrusion' made by 'Alcoa' alluminium and epoxy resin glue bonded at the Menominee factory. Low use, damp weather ie humidity and temp changes cause them to suffer from 'exfoliation - inter granular corrosion' This is an absolute visual thing and is often masked by the leading edge tape protection. No excessive corrosion here although it can be trimmed/filed down to MM declared limits.
So to get back to the original concept, yes take a good long look at the marque, do some initial checks as above and if you are happy and still interested GET A FULL SURVEY DONE by a type knowledgable LAE before parting with cash. Then get into bed with the same or similar engineer and let him look after it exclusively ... warts and all as they say.
There's tons more of course, but I've probably bored too many of you. But my enthusiasm for the Enstrom marque remains. Great ship and rewarding to own. Then when the pocket allows, graduate from the 28a/280 to the Turbo C and F models.
Regards to all ppruners and guests out there.
Dennis K
Working from Shoreham Airport in the 70's and early 80's for that super entrepreneur, Roy Spooner, the company held the European distribution rights for the Enstrom product. I was their salesman !!
During that time, I sold 138 of the model F28.s and 280 Sharks and thelater 'dash two' series. It was then the success story of its time, before the Robinson came along and swamped it, mainly for training.
The type is a very fine machine but with some difficult areas of maintenance. Many engineers don't like the type, some won't even maintain them hence the 'Hangar Queens' around the country. But as other engineers will tell you (they know who they are and I'll name names if I'm asked !!) .... when the type is properly maintained and flown fairly regularly, it is without equal in its market.
Fast at around 100mph (VNE 117 mph) AND 11-12 gals per hour, big roomy 5 foot wide cabin, (three comfortable seats abreast) 7 cu ft, 60lb capacity luggage locker, (100lbs in the later versions) super looks (it won Fortune magazines best designed industrial product in the 70's) ...... and the later 'Greg Focella' nose on the 280 Shark made it the best looking helicopter you could buy. IMHO !! .... then terrific handling with nicely co-ordinated controls and as my old publicity blurb always said ..... the type can be trimmed to fly 'hands and feet off.' which I still demonstrate. It is fuel injected of course so no carb ice, engine failure possibilities. 40 usg fuel gives around 250 sm range. The turbo version should be leaned to give 83lb per hour fuel flow and 100mph.
Safety ? There has never been a fatality in the UK in over thirty years of operations. The type 'autorotates' almost as well as the 206. And can be safely autorotated to a full stop ground landing in training as will be demonstrated by many instructors who know the type. And it is 'aerobatic' and has twice won the the world 'freestyle' championships. You can buy an F28A model for around £40k - £45k.
In fact one could be forgiven for wondering why anyone bought anything else !!!
But now the downside! (M/R blades later !!)
1. Difficult to track except by the whizz kids above.
2. Poor payload. Usually quoted as 'underpowered' - when in fact the problem is 'overweight' Most machines have a WPS around 1650lbs. (gross on 28A 2150lbs - but can be utility certified to 2600 !!!)
3. Only 205 bhp on a standard day which at a typical weight on a 30 degree humid day needs a pilot who is really well rrpm aware. (overcome to a large extent on the later 'turbo' models) ...... but we are talking 28A models here.
4. Indifferent factory ownership from time to time, mainly masked by an enthusiastic UK distributor.
5. Engine 'overspeeds' common, hence the Lycoming C1A engine often failing to see its published 1500 hours.
6. Occasional 'chronic' starter motor failings AND starting problems with the 'shower of sparks' starting system.
There are a few more downsides but I won't list them .... but now the M/R blades.
In my view this was the cause of so many lost sales when I was actively involved. And as Steve A points out (600 Driver) (Wish you well Steve) .... he has covered the factory MM points nicely. But as a simple pilot on an initial, non engineer inspection. Yes do the 'tap' test. A tap every inch along the leading edges top and bottom listening for any 'voiding.' This will take you an hour for three blades. The SIL allowable limit is 3 inches but even if its one you are heading for replacement. Both main and tail blades here. Trainling edges for bond separation too. You can see it easily with a m-glass. The root doublers Steve has mentioned, (no voiding sound here) and if you want to know what that sounds like just tap anywhere inboard of the blade span. Its hollow!
The blades are a leading edge 'extrusion' made by 'Alcoa' alluminium and epoxy resin glue bonded at the Menominee factory. Low use, damp weather ie humidity and temp changes cause them to suffer from 'exfoliation - inter granular corrosion' This is an absolute visual thing and is often masked by the leading edge tape protection. No excessive corrosion here although it can be trimmed/filed down to MM declared limits.
So to get back to the original concept, yes take a good long look at the marque, do some initial checks as above and if you are happy and still interested GET A FULL SURVEY DONE by a type knowledgable LAE before parting with cash. Then get into bed with the same or similar engineer and let him look after it exclusively ... warts and all as they say.
There's tons more of course, but I've probably bored too many of you. But my enthusiasm for the Enstrom marque remains. Great ship and rewarding to own. Then when the pocket allows, graduate from the 28a/280 to the Turbo C and F models.
Regards to all ppruners and guests out there.
Dennis K
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Enstrom 480B vs R44
what are the pro's and cons in owning either of these models. I am in the midst of purchasing a 480b and I am still being told the 44 is a better option - what is the forums view on this.
what is the cost per hour on each and what about maintenance??
ADS - thanks.
what is the cost per hour on each and what about maintenance??
ADS - thanks.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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The only non Bell product we operate is a 480B, and here are a few experiences we've had with the thing just recently,
- The thing had a defective starter from the factory which vibrated so bad it broke the starter mount and the FCU mount, fortunately the FCU didn't fall off in flight, Enstrom knows and has decided to ignore the problem.
- Just recenty the bearing inside the pulley overheated, damaging the bearing and the pulley, technicians all agree that its due to a bad design of the pulley.
- The thing just vibrates like crazy the cyclic wobbles all over the place and when this happens its difficult to work on it.
- It is very difficult to find training for this aircraft, Enstrom sent an IP to give recurrent training to us and he chopped one of the fins off, and Enstrom didn't even send an apology note, just like nothing happened.
I have never seen a helicopter require so much maintenance, I really wish the owners would just get rid of it.
- The thing had a defective starter from the factory which vibrated so bad it broke the starter mount and the FCU mount, fortunately the FCU didn't fall off in flight, Enstrom knows and has decided to ignore the problem.
- Just recenty the bearing inside the pulley overheated, damaging the bearing and the pulley, technicians all agree that its due to a bad design of the pulley.
- The thing just vibrates like crazy the cyclic wobbles all over the place and when this happens its difficult to work on it.
- It is very difficult to find training for this aircraft, Enstrom sent an IP to give recurrent training to us and he chopped one of the fins off, and Enstrom didn't even send an apology note, just like nothing happened.
I have never seen a helicopter require so much maintenance, I really wish the owners would just get rid of it.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Hughes 500
Got to agree with H500.. Depends what you want it for of course. Taking you mother in law to lunch at the local hotel you might be better off with something more comfortable, but for fun in the sky a D or an E rocks!
They are damn fast as well, puts a JR or 480 to shame
I've seem a couple that are up for referb in Helidata so you might pick up a nice one.
They are damn fast as well, puts a JR or 480 to shame
I've seem a couple that are up for referb in Helidata so you might pick up a nice one.
Blenderpilot, h500
Blenderpilot, I cannot DISAGREE with you more!!!! I have flown EVERY, YES EVERY 480/480B in the UK. I have taught just about every owner, past and present, including the 480B CAA certification flight test on behalf of the CAA. The 480/480B is without ANY doubt , the smoothest, most forgiving , will not bite you back helicopter in the world!!!!!! . With regard to operating costs, yes the H500 can be reasonable, but the 480 range is cheaper!! take fuel consumption for example, most 500's use 26/28 galls per hour, especially if fitted withC20 R2 engine. The 480's rarely use more than 21/22 gallons per hour. Now just compare that to a modern R44 using 18 gallons of avgas per hour at £1 litre, I reckon the 480 is at least 50% cheaper!!!!!!!!!. Yes 500's may go a bit faster and climb a bit faster, but try flying them in the vicinity of a few hills in 25kt winds and see how comfortable the ride is!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 480 quality of ride is by far superior to the 500, R44 and Jet Ranger. Take a look in the 480 flight manual "This aircraft has been proven to be fully controlable in winds of 40 MPH"!!!!! Take a look in the B206 flight manual "This aircraft has been proven to be fully controlable in winds of 20 MPH"!!!!! -- EXACTLY HALF!!!!!!!!!!!! Close the throtle on a H500 or R44, how long before you die? Come with me in a ENSTROM 280 and I will shut the throttle for 15 seconds before I have to lower the collective! Any R22 or R44 pilot want to compete with me??? What about low G situations? mast bumping etc? I could go on. Speak to ENSTROM owners they all love them,. Blenderpilot, I dont believe you operated your 480 in the UK? I suggest you change your maintenance company asap and get yourself some good instuctors. Just before you say it, thats just my points of view, I am not connected to ENSTROM or any other sales agency, I JUST FLY THEM!!!
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I cannot claim a lack of interest in this subject as I am the Director of Sales for Enstrom Helicopter Corporation. I am intimately aware of the issues that have contributed to some of the "maintenance" issues with the aircraft and do not want to address those on a forum of this nature.
This aircraft has a long, reputable, history of operation in Mexico and it is interesting to note that, while the company that owns this 480B has researched the possibility of selling the aircraft, they have made it very clear that they do not want to sell this aircraft in Mexico. The reason? Because the operating costs are too low - and whoever purchased the aircraft could very easily out bid the current owner for leased time on the aircraft. The 480B simply is less expensive to operate than the Bell products that make up the rest of their fleet.
This aircraft is managed, maintained and operated by a Bell helicopter CSF and Enstrom has long maintained that there might be conflicts of interest regarding our product and the priority that is put on it when it comes to maintainence issues.
This aircraft has a long, reputable, history of operation in Mexico and it is interesting to note that, while the company that owns this 480B has researched the possibility of selling the aircraft, they have made it very clear that they do not want to sell this aircraft in Mexico. The reason? Because the operating costs are too low - and whoever purchased the aircraft could very easily out bid the current owner for leased time on the aircraft. The 480B simply is less expensive to operate than the Bell products that make up the rest of their fleet.
This aircraft is managed, maintained and operated by a Bell helicopter CSF and Enstrom has long maintained that there might be conflicts of interest regarding our product and the priority that is put on it when it comes to maintainence issues.
TOT
Seeing that 90% of 500's have a C20B engine in the fuel consumption will be the same ! I would challenge you on the comfort in 25 kts of wind, flight is very good and comfortable. I would also look at the risdual prices - they don't hold their money very well do they ! Hm wonder why ?
It is a shame Enstrom did not make the helicopter more attractive, lets face it it is a big 280 with excess scaffolding poles used as an undercarriage !
The 500 is a bucket load quicker than a 480, havent recently seen a 480 go at 130 kts straight and level with power to spare, unless it was going down hill !!!!!!!!!!!
Biting yet tot ?
Seeing that 90% of 500's have a C20B engine in the fuel consumption will be the same ! I would challenge you on the comfort in 25 kts of wind, flight is very good and comfortable. I would also look at the risdual prices - they don't hold their money very well do they ! Hm wonder why ?
It is a shame Enstrom did not make the helicopter more attractive, lets face it it is a big 280 with excess scaffolding poles used as an undercarriage !
The 500 is a bucket load quicker than a 480, havent recently seen a 480 go at 130 kts straight and level with power to spare, unless it was going down hill !!!!!!!!!!!
Biting yet tot ?
H500,
I don't know much about Enstroms or Hughes', but I do know that saying they ought to have the same fuel consumption because they have the same engine is a little wide of the mark!
I don't know much about Enstroms or Hughes', but I do know that saying they ought to have the same fuel consumption because they have the same engine is a little wide of the mark!