EC135
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PBH, parts by hour YES or NO
Hi
We are just purchasing EC135P2i, completelly new, with 2year warranty.
Should we opt for Parts By Hour program or not? The heli will be operated up to 150hrs a year, with best care, flown by owner only.
We are just purchasing EC135P2i, completelly new, with 2year warranty.
Should we opt for Parts By Hour program or not? The heli will be operated up to 150hrs a year, with best care, flown by owner only.
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Parts-by-the-hour - issues
The conventional wisdom is that these OEM supplied contracts achieve most for their clients when they fly more than 400 or so hours per year, but that 'wisdom' hides a truck-load of questions which might lead to a YES or No answer for you.
The significant issue concerns the perception of PBH/SBH contracts and what it is thought they deliver and what they really do deliver. This can only be determined by carefully reading the contracts and seeing whether the contract guarantees parts availability (with compensation etc) or simply parts 'when ever possible'... or 'when available'. The two approached are significant when you are clutching the contract in-hand and drumming your fingers on a desk waiting for a part you thought would arrive v quickly and for which you now wait with a grumpy owner asking why he signed some contract.
If the owner signs the contract, what does he expect.....? A guarantee that his helicopter will be 's' whenever he needs it.....? If that really is his motivation, get the contract read very carefully before recommending it or signing it...
Warranties on helicopters are, at their best, pretty awful bundles of documents. The airframe is covered by one, the avionics by another, the engines another and so on. The admin of all of this when flying loads of hours can be a task in its own right.
The 'gotcha' clause tends to be - if you have a snag on your helicopter, you have to diagnose the problem (at your own expense), and with a telephone line open at the OEM factory, remove the part and (all at your expense) ship the part to a factory gate - which might not be where you collected the bright new machine from. Then, at the OEM's discretion, you sit and wait (with a part absent from your helicopter) while the OEM considers what it will do. Only then will a decision emerge and a part may come back to you finally shipped at the OEM's expense. You may still get a bill for pro-rata use of the part you sent back.... and the new part's own warranty might still only last until the anniversary of the original new aircraft warranty!
The answer to your question is found, as the phrase, goes buried in the details of not one contract but the several you will need to cover the EC135's total system - engines, airframe, avionics, and customisation. The same applies to warranties where the cover may vary from avionics to engines.
I wish I could say YES... go for it at 150 hours per year or NO... don't... but there are simply too many factors involved and I've only mentioned two.
A gut feeling suggests that you might simply get the owner to pay the full PBH/SBH rate for engines, airframe, avionics etc. into his own helicopter account as hours accrue to fund the necessary spare parts and associated costs, but make sure the owner understands that there are no guarantees that the part will be with you when you need it.
PS.... PBH and SBH contracts tend to have lists of the parts they cover... unless you feel rich and go tip-to-tail.
The significant issue concerns the perception of PBH/SBH contracts and what it is thought they deliver and what they really do deliver. This can only be determined by carefully reading the contracts and seeing whether the contract guarantees parts availability (with compensation etc) or simply parts 'when ever possible'... or 'when available'. The two approached are significant when you are clutching the contract in-hand and drumming your fingers on a desk waiting for a part you thought would arrive v quickly and for which you now wait with a grumpy owner asking why he signed some contract.
If the owner signs the contract, what does he expect.....? A guarantee that his helicopter will be 's' whenever he needs it.....? If that really is his motivation, get the contract read very carefully before recommending it or signing it...
Warranties on helicopters are, at their best, pretty awful bundles of documents. The airframe is covered by one, the avionics by another, the engines another and so on. The admin of all of this when flying loads of hours can be a task in its own right.
The 'gotcha' clause tends to be - if you have a snag on your helicopter, you have to diagnose the problem (at your own expense), and with a telephone line open at the OEM factory, remove the part and (all at your expense) ship the part to a factory gate - which might not be where you collected the bright new machine from. Then, at the OEM's discretion, you sit and wait (with a part absent from your helicopter) while the OEM considers what it will do. Only then will a decision emerge and a part may come back to you finally shipped at the OEM's expense. You may still get a bill for pro-rata use of the part you sent back.... and the new part's own warranty might still only last until the anniversary of the original new aircraft warranty!
The answer to your question is found, as the phrase, goes buried in the details of not one contract but the several you will need to cover the EC135's total system - engines, airframe, avionics, and customisation. The same applies to warranties where the cover may vary from avionics to engines.
I wish I could say YES... go for it at 150 hours per year or NO... don't... but there are simply too many factors involved and I've only mentioned two.
A gut feeling suggests that you might simply get the owner to pay the full PBH/SBH rate for engines, airframe, avionics etc. into his own helicopter account as hours accrue to fund the necessary spare parts and associated costs, but make sure the owner understands that there are no guarantees that the part will be with you when you need it.
PS.... PBH and SBH contracts tend to have lists of the parts they cover... unless you feel rich and go tip-to-tail.
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Ec 135 Cdps
Can anyone tell me when the 135 was fitted with CDPS as standard (from which ship number)? And have any of the earlier machine been fitted with it?
Bit of a long shot, but any info would be greatly rec'd.
Helipeek
Bit of a long shot, but any info would be greatly rec'd.
Helipeek
# 172 and on at least.
With the proviso that there are aircraft earlier than that which are fitted with it.
Hence the aircraft are referred to as EC135CDS and EC135CPDS respectively.
For a period there were a mixture of the two and some aircraft have been retrofitted by the factory.
The only real way is to ask as the info is specific to each serial number.
With the proviso that there are aircraft earlier than that which are fitted with it.
Hence the aircraft are referred to as EC135CDS and EC135CPDS respectively.
For a period there were a mixture of the two and some aircraft have been retrofitted by the factory.
The only real way is to ask as the info is specific to each serial number.
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ILblog - you are probably aware, but just in case you're not, you're really dealing with two contracts; PBH for the engines & SBH for the avionics etc.
P&W call their PBH "Eagle service program", and it operates a little differently to the Turbomeca PBH contract. You "own" your P&W engines, so that if one goes away for attention, you get a loaned spare until yours comes back, whereupon you have to change engines again. With TM you just get a replacement engine & therefore one engine change. Advantages & disadvatages of both schemes - just a different way of doing it. (In a 135, an engine change is a fairly quick job - not so for the same engines in a 902, or much else!
)
SBH can be designed for each customer with as many, or as few, items on the list as you're willing to pay for. Obvioulsy, if a black box fails, it'll often be expensive to replace without SBH, and probably an un-planned cost too. On the other hand, if you're only flying 150 hours a year, the cost of SBH is unlikely to be so great, especially for the re-assurance of relatively quick parts supply under a SBH contract and the knowledge that you won't have an un-expected bill for that box!
A lot of high hour (1000-1500) public service operations in UK have PBH and SBH contracts for two reasons:
1. They can budget more accurately for the hours they're planning to fly.
2. If their aircraft needs a (PBH/SBH) part, they'll be supplied as top priority & will be operational again as soon as possible.
Some units put the equivalent money aside instead - if they're lucky, they'll save plenty of it; a run of bad luck might have them more out of pocket.
At the end of the day, it's an insurance policy to provide (some) peace of mind, which costs, of course - as with most insurance policies, the financial winner is more often the service provider!!
Re CDS/CPDS - I know of one operator who investigated retro-fitting CPDS into their older CDS T1 and the sums made no sense whatsoever.
Buying a CPDS replacement will have worked out a lot better value in the long term.
P&W call their PBH "Eagle service program", and it operates a little differently to the Turbomeca PBH contract. You "own" your P&W engines, so that if one goes away for attention, you get a loaned spare until yours comes back, whereupon you have to change engines again. With TM you just get a replacement engine & therefore one engine change. Advantages & disadvatages of both schemes - just a different way of doing it. (In a 135, an engine change is a fairly quick job - not so for the same engines in a 902, or much else!
)SBH can be designed for each customer with as many, or as few, items on the list as you're willing to pay for. Obvioulsy, if a black box fails, it'll often be expensive to replace without SBH, and probably an un-planned cost too. On the other hand, if you're only flying 150 hours a year, the cost of SBH is unlikely to be so great, especially for the re-assurance of relatively quick parts supply under a SBH contract and the knowledge that you won't have an un-expected bill for that box!
A lot of high hour (1000-1500) public service operations in UK have PBH and SBH contracts for two reasons:
1. They can budget more accurately for the hours they're planning to fly.
2. If their aircraft needs a (PBH/SBH) part, they'll be supplied as top priority & will be operational again as soon as possible.
Some units put the equivalent money aside instead - if they're lucky, they'll save plenty of it; a run of bad luck might have them more out of pocket.
At the end of the day, it's an insurance policy to provide (some) peace of mind, which costs, of course - as with most insurance policies, the financial winner is more often the service provider!!
Re CDS/CPDS - I know of one operator who investigated retro-fitting CPDS into their older CDS T1 and the sums made no sense whatsoever.
Buying a CPDS replacement will have worked out a lot better value in the long term.
Last edited by zorab64; 2nd May 2010 at 01:09. Reason: Forget to add CPDS comment!
Hi guys,
Just comparing our current 109E with the P2i in discussions the other day. Questions we couldn't really get to the bottom of in regards to the p2i:
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?
What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?
What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed in HEMS equipped aircraft (with winch, but no wire strike or nightsun/FLIR at 2900kg)? We understand 120kias and 175kg/h is Vlrc, but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h
Does this vary for dash speeds by much?
Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?
Thanks all. I would be happy to add the 109E figures if there is any interest.
Just comparing our current 109E with the P2i in discussions the other day. Questions we couldn't really get to the bottom of in regards to the p2i:
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?
What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?
What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed in HEMS equipped aircraft (with winch, but no wire strike or nightsun/FLIR at 2900kg)? We understand 120kias and 175kg/h is Vlrc, but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h
Does this vary for dash speeds by much?
Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?
Thanks all. I would be happy to add the 109E figures if there is any interest.
Last edited by helmet fire; 4th May 2010 at 03:55.
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Airglaze-Aviation
Hello Skadi,
I have just read your article, and I can assure you that the product that you have on your helicopter is not what it claims to be, our coating is approved by Eurocopter and after checking back our records it would appear that your helicopters has never been worked on by my company.
I have just read your article, and I can assure you that the product that you have on your helicopter is not what it claims to be, our coating is approved by Eurocopter and after checking back our records it would appear that your helicopters has never been worked on by my company.
Airglaze-Aviation
Hello Skadi,
I have just read your article, and I can assure you that the product that you have on your helicopter is not what it claims to be, our coating is approved by Eurocopter and after checking back our records it would appear that your helicopters has never been worked on by my company.
Hello Skadi,
I have just read your article, and I can assure you that the product that you have on your helicopter is not what it claims to be, our coating is approved by Eurocopter and after checking back our records it would appear that your helicopters has never been worked on by my company.
I never posted an article about the use of airglaze...
skadi
Last edited by skadi; 4th May 2010 at 11:15.
EC135 Performance
Hi guys, I previously asked this on the 135 thread with no response. Wondering if a kind pruner might help fill in some answers?
Just comparing our current 109E with the P2i in discussions the other day. Questions we couldn't really get to the bottom of in regards to the p2i:
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?
What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?
What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed in HEMS equipped aircraft (with winch, but no wire strike or nightsun/FLIR at 2900kg)? We understand 120kias and 175kg/h is Vlrc, but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h
Does this vary for dash speeds by much?
Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?
Thanks,
hf
Just comparing our current 109E with the P2i in discussions the other day. Questions we couldn't really get to the bottom of in regards to the p2i:
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?
What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?
What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed in HEMS equipped aircraft (with winch, but no wire strike or nightsun/FLIR at 2900kg)? We understand 120kias and 175kg/h is Vlrc, but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h
Does this vary for dash speeds by much?
Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?
Thanks,
hf
Realistic means BOW?
GROSS MASS LIMIT
~2870 KG
GROSS MASS LIMIT
CLEAN - MTOW 1000' 30C 1013 hpa 135 KCAS = 218 KGH (TAS would be ~ 140 KNOTS (Unapproved data of course 
)
Working backwards from 200 kg/hr would give you 130 KCAS or 135 TAS
560.4 KG
Can't help with the other numbers as I don't have the performance penalty data from the RFM Supplements. Winch will have an effect on certain things.
I have done a little bit in each model ~ 300 hours.
They are not really comparable aircraft each is just good at what it does and conversely. Due to "legacy" issues the 135 will not get any bigger/better performance wise. Can you winch a patient "into" a 109? Noise? T/R versus Fenestron. etc. etc. blah blah.
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at SL and 40degrees C?
What is a realistic max OGE hover weight at 3000ft and 30 degrees?
What is a realistic CAT A weight (clear heliport) at SL and 30degrees?
What is a realistic fuel flow and cruise speed <SNIP>but some operators say they cruise around at 130 to 135 kias burning 200 kg/h
)Working backwards from 200 kg/hr would give you 130 KCAS or 135 TAS
Is the total fuel capacity of the P2i 560kg or 535kg?
Can't help with the other numbers as I don't have the performance penalty data from the RFM Supplements. Winch will have an effect on certain things.
I have done a little bit in each model ~ 300 hours.
They are not really comparable aircraft each is just good at what it does and conversely. Due to "legacy" issues the 135 will not get any bigger/better performance wise. Can you winch a patient "into" a 109? Noise? T/R versus Fenestron. etc. etc. blah blah.
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EC135 cap
Has anyone got a color image of the EC135 caution advisory panel. I cannot find any info on the colour illumination anywhere in the rfm or tm for the panel. Eg is Active red, amber or some other colour. I can guess some like FIRE but would like to get them all right 
For the caution warnings and messages generated for different failures, I presume that they are colour coded as well, so if there is any info on that, it would also be appreciated. If I've missed something in the tm or rfm my humble apologies, but I'm just using the info for a project and the manual copies I have may not be complete. I also realise that there are many variants between the Pratt and TEC versions so I'll take whatever anyone has.
Tia
For the caution warnings and messages generated for different failures, I presume that they are colour coded as well, so if there is any info on that, it would also be appreciated. If I've missed something in the tm or rfm my humble apologies, but I'm just using the info for a project and the manual copies I have may not be complete. I also realise that there are many variants between the Pratt and TEC versions so I'll take whatever anyone has.
Tia
Thanks RVDT.
Not familiar with "BOW" but what I am after is actual operating observations, not just RFM outputs. I realy appreciate your feedback, I guess there are few EC135 pilots out there in Prune land.
Were these figures from the RFM, or are they what you would see during your time on them?
Not familiar with "BOW" but what I am after is actual operating observations, not just RFM outputs. I realy appreciate your feedback, I guess there are few EC135 pilots out there in Prune land.
Were these figures from the RFM, or are they what you would see during your time on them?
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I'm more familiar with CPDS, as opposed to CDS but.....
If it's on the warning panel, it's RED.
If it's on the cautionary display (CAD) it's mainly AMBER. The exceptions to this are advisories such as bleed air and landing light being on, which are GREEN.
The LIMIT warning on the FLI is RED.
Messages at the bottom of the FLI are AMBER, but a self test INP Failure is WHITE.
If an FLI engine parameter (Tq, TOT, N1) moves into a limit, the value stays WHITE, but will be underlined with an AMBER or RED line.
To answer your question about the fire extinguisher system ACTIVE caption....it's WHITE.
If it's on the warning panel, it's RED.
If it's on the cautionary display (CAD) it's mainly AMBER. The exceptions to this are advisories such as bleed air and landing light being on, which are GREEN.
The LIMIT warning on the FLI is RED.
Messages at the bottom of the FLI are AMBER, but a self test INP Failure is WHITE.
If an FLI engine parameter (Tq, TOT, N1) moves into a limit, the value stays WHITE, but will be underlined with an AMBER or RED line.
To answer your question about the fire extinguisher system ACTIVE caption....it's WHITE.
Last edited by nodrama; 15th Jul 2010 at 07:32.
BOW = Basic Operating Weight
-is the basic weight of the aircraft when ready for operation, including crew but excluding any payload or usable fuel.
What do you mean by "realistic"? The RFM data is factual certified proven data.
Be wary of "additional performance data" which is not approved and clearly says so.
If the aircraft won't achieve the performance in the RFM there is something wrong with it. And I am certain that any customer that found that it didn't would certainly be making a case with the manufacturer and the authorities very smartly.
The 135 I fly "does what it says on the tin."
-is the basic weight of the aircraft when ready for operation, including crew but excluding any payload or usable fuel.
What do you mean by "realistic"? The RFM data is factual certified proven data.
Be wary of "additional performance data" which is not approved and clearly says so.
If the aircraft won't achieve the performance in the RFM there is something wrong with it. And I am certain that any customer that found that it didn't would certainly be making a case with the manufacturer and the authorities very smartly.
The 135 I fly "does what it says on the tin."
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Connectors for headsets
Hi. I have just started to fly ec135p2+. When I wanted to plug in my Bose Aviation headset I have relized, that some strange type of connector is used in this helicopter. It is connector with several small pins, similar to Lemo Bose standard, but placed in a different way. Does anyone know what is a name of this connector. Is there any conversion from this connector to Lemo connector?
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Nodrama
If you don't mind - go here RotorInfo Home and select Rotorask from the menu and then EC135.
This idea comes from another thread where an app called Isafety from Eurosafety was thrown out. They are basically demo-ing a cap panel iphone app for a 350B2. The demo app allows you to select a CAP caution/advisory warning button and display the appropriate actions. A user called Gordy suggested there are more Droid users than Iphone users, which makes it difficult to develop an all encompassing native app (or less straight forward).
I personally believe that web apps are the way to go, and negate all the different screen size/phone issues. I thew up the attached test site since the post and looked at it on a Blackberry, Droid and Iphone ( as well as native browsers like Safari and IE). I would like to address standard CAP and more modern EFIS type displays, providing the same training functionality.
I'm working on a different project, but this caught my attention and I am looking at throwing it in to my general development site RotorInfo Home for rotor types. I've generated a lot of screens for different types, but have not yet added all the actions.
The example for EC135 only has an active action for the FIRE CAD and Hyd for AS350BA but if you take a look at the EC135 to see if this looks kind of right and might be useful, I'd appreciate it. Just select an aircraft type and click on the button for actions. Any other comments welcome.
If you don't mind - go here RotorInfo Home and select Rotorask from the menu and then EC135.
This idea comes from another thread where an app called Isafety from Eurosafety was thrown out. They are basically demo-ing a cap panel iphone app for a 350B2. The demo app allows you to select a CAP caution/advisory warning button and display the appropriate actions. A user called Gordy suggested there are more Droid users than Iphone users, which makes it difficult to develop an all encompassing native app (or less straight forward).
I personally believe that web apps are the way to go, and negate all the different screen size/phone issues. I thew up the attached test site since the post and looked at it on a Blackberry, Droid and Iphone ( as well as native browsers like Safari and IE). I would like to address standard CAP and more modern EFIS type displays, providing the same training functionality.
I'm working on a different project, but this caught my attention and I am looking at throwing it in to my general development site RotorInfo Home for rotor types. I've generated a lot of screens for different types, but have not yet added all the actions.
The example for EC135 only has an active action for the FIRE CAD and Hyd for AS350BA but if you take a look at the EC135 to see if this looks kind of right and might be useful, I'd appreciate it. Just select an aircraft type and click on the button for actions. Any other comments welcome.
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All the amber captions on the warning panel need to be red (except EMER OFF SW, which isn't a caption but just a light to indicate when the fuel shutoff valves are closed...the lettering will be white when lit, same as ACTIVE)
Your notes might be for a different configuration and possibly FAA spec, as the layout of the warnings are slightly different than what I am used to seeing. e.g you show individual AP1 & AP2 failure captions, I'm used to seeing just an AP A.TRIM failure caption.
Also, haven't seen stby horzn caption on the warning panel. I would have thought this would be cautionary (an amber CAD caption), that is unless it was, up to the time of failure, the only AH still working!
Your notes might be for a different configuration and possibly FAA spec, as the layout of the warnings are slightly different than what I am used to seeing. e.g you show individual AP1 & AP2 failure captions, I'm used to seeing just an AP A.TRIM failure caption.
Also, haven't seen stby horzn caption on the warning panel. I would have thought this would be cautionary (an amber CAD caption), that is unless it was, up to the time of failure, the only AH still working!
Last edited by nodrama; 16th Jul 2010 at 09:14.
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Thanks NoDrama.
I checked the RFM for the T1/T2 P1/P2 CDS and CPDS (various revisions) and they all indicated what i had, but I did think it strange that the standby horizon would be on a warning panel ??. I agree with you.
I checked what i had for the TM and it is just as you say with no AP1/ AP2 and a AP A. TRIM in place of of the stand by Horizon. I've taken note of the Active and Emer Sw lighting also.
thanks for your help.
I checked the RFM for the T1/T2 P1/P2 CDS and CPDS (various revisions) and they all indicated what i had, but I did think it strange that the standby horizon would be on a warning panel ??. I agree with you.
I checked what i had for the TM and it is just as you say with no AP1/ AP2 and a AP A. TRIM in place of of the stand by Horizon. I've taken note of the Active and Emer Sw lighting also.
thanks for your help.