Robinson R44
Live dangerously, fly a Crapinson Flimsicopter
Make sure your blades don't come off, 
or delaminate on their own, 
as they a prone to do SO OFTEN.
I have had 2 friends killed in Robo products & another 1 near catastrophe from an in-flight blade delamination, they ONLy just walked away as the delam happened near the end of a practiced auto.
I have 2 good Engineer friends who have both expressed their concern to the way this product is made; its made to a price, cheep, very cheep & very nasty. I have seen a blade with some delamination fresh from the box straight out of the factory & NEVER FLOWN yet!!! Good one yer, right - flimsicopters
Are they safe? Robo's kill more Pilots than any other machine. Crash one & You will be lucky to walk away, if the post crash-fire does not get to You first. RIP
I fly 'em too, yep but only when I have to, sure they are crisp & precise to fly (well don't mention the cyclic shhhhiiite its like the war, mums the word) but given unlimited choice; NEVER. 
If we all boycott them, they might just go away, yes just go away............
Good Luck & Happy Landings.
VF
or delaminate on their own, as they a prone to do SO OFTEN. I have had 2 friends killed in Robo products & another 1 near catastrophe from an in-flight blade delamination, they ONLy just walked away as the delam happened near the end of a practiced auto.
I have 2 good Engineer friends who have both expressed their concern to the way this product is made; its made to a price, cheep, very cheep & very nasty. I have seen a blade with some delamination fresh from the box straight out of the factory & NEVER FLOWN yet!!! Good one yer, right - flimsicopters
Are they safe? Robo's kill more Pilots than any other machine. Crash one & You will be lucky to walk away, if the post crash-fire does not get to You first. RIP
I fly 'em too, yep
but only when I have to, sure they are crisp & precise to fly (well don't mention the cyclic shhhhiiite its like the war, mums the word) but given unlimited choice; NEVER. If we all boycott them, they might just go away, yes just go away............
Good Luck & Happy Landings.
VF
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I am aware of an investigation report which addresses a significant factor in blade failure, but the report is gathering dust on the desk of the authorities in a Pacific country. They have had the report for over two years, but have not released it to date.
So much for the "wait for the official report" policy.
So much for the "wait for the official report" policy.
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Some more negative thoughts from a writer in Sydney who also doubles as a barrister.
earth-wind-fire-and-pain
earth-wind-fire-and-pain
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However, they need heavyweight pilots, because when flown at low forward speed, especially at heights lower than 500 feet, they are susceptible to OGE - out of ground effect, which means in close proximity to the terrain at a low air speed or at hover, they fall out of the sky.
Flying and sailing make me nervous, which is why I walk everywhere.
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Mr Waterstreet - Sun Herald Page 12 Extra
The article is a disgrace, and written by someone who has not done their homework and is clearly illiterate.
This section of the article is particularly ridiculous and written in language that Mr Waterstreet must have invented himself !
However, they need heavyweight pilots, because when flown at low forward speed, especially at heights lower than 500 feet, they are susceptible to OGE - out of ground effect, which means in close proximity to the terrain at a low air speed or at hover, they fall out of the sky.
The comments regarding “helicopter was burnt” in his eyes seem to only occur to “Robinson 22 and 44” helicopters. Did he miss the recent Twin Squirrel crash or the B3 at YSBK, both were burned to the ground, regardless of being made by other manufacturers.
The industry does not need this sort of uneducated publicity, written in a style that suggests he knows what he is talking about.
Shame on you “Sun Herald” and shame and disgrace on you Mr Waterstreet.
It is hard to believe that any reputable newspaper would publish such rubbish.
Arrrj
This section of the article is particularly ridiculous and written in language that Mr Waterstreet must have invented himself !
However, they need heavyweight pilots, because when flown at low forward speed, especially at heights lower than 500 feet, they are susceptible to OGE - out of ground effect, which means in close proximity to the terrain at a low air speed or at hover, they fall out of the sky.
The comments regarding “helicopter was burnt” in his eyes seem to only occur to “Robinson 22 and 44” helicopters. Did he miss the recent Twin Squirrel crash or the B3 at YSBK, both were burned to the ground, regardless of being made by other manufacturers.
The industry does not need this sort of uneducated publicity, written in a style that suggests he knows what he is talking about.
Shame on you “Sun Herald” and shame and disgrace on you Mr Waterstreet.
It is hard to believe that any reputable newspaper would publish such rubbish.
Arrrj
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Very hard to believe that a Barrister would write such rubbish. He is either slightly unhinged or is being spun by a drinking buddy who could be full of hate without knowledge.
I sincerely hope for his sake that he doesn't come up against these words of his in a case somewhere against someone who actually knows a bit about aviation or he might find himself in a sticky situation.
I shall keep them for sure.
The gentleman has quite an illustrious career in films and literature and according to his web site is touted as a caring individual.
How the crass carelessness of his words from the article fit with caring, is beyond me.
People from stateside who are related to the last unfortunate accident and reading them will understandably be quite upset.
I sincerely hope for his sake that he doesn't come up against these words of his in a case somewhere against someone who actually knows a bit about aviation or he might find himself in a sticky situation.
I shall keep them for sure.
The gentleman has quite an illustrious career in films and literature and according to his web site is touted as a caring individual.
How the crass carelessness of his words from the article fit with caring, is beyond me.
People from stateside who are related to the last unfortunate accident and reading them will understandably be quite upset.
Davy, FFS get out more. That wasn't a "close shave". It's called training - where students learn their limits. You should head off to Sydney and join the barrister who only walks everywhere. Find him before he gets run over.
And tell him that his "Opinion" piece was written as a reaction to the crash which killed film-maker Mike De Gruy. I understand that this happened at no more than 10 feet off the ground. IGE? OGE? Tell him to get his facts right. (And maybe to wait for the inquiry results.)
And tell him that his "Opinion" piece was written as a reaction to the crash which killed film-maker Mike De Gruy. I understand that this happened at no more than 10 feet off the ground. IGE? OGE? Tell him to get his facts right. (And maybe to wait for the inquiry results.)
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Regarding the video, I'm happier landing on the front of the skids and bouncing back a bit than the other way round and flipping over forward. The only scare there was perhaps a bit of back cyclic when it touched down.
Jim,
I was refering to how close the Rotor and the Tail Boom got when Aft Cyclic was applied upon touching the ground.
Dave
I was refering to how close the Rotor and the Tail Boom got when Aft Cyclic was applied upon touching the ground.
Dave
Last edited by 206Fan; 22nd Feb 2012 at 21:44.
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fuel tank bladder AD
Now we all know where the fuel tank bladder AD comes from:
accident report
accident report
SUMMARY
2010060
Accident
14 August 2010, approximately 12.30 hours Stroe
D-HNOC
Robinson R44
Helicopter
During a positioning flight, both ground handling wheels were left attached to the helicopter. While hover taxiing before landing, the left ground handling wheel fell from the aircraft. The right ground handling wheel, however, was still attached to the right skid with its lifting handle pointing downwards. When the lifting handle hit the ground, the helicopter pivoted over to the left, the tail hit the ground and the tail, including the tail rotor, broke off. The helicopter became uncontrollable and came to a standstill lying on its side. The pilot suffered no injuries. The helicopter was damaged beyond repair.
2010060
Accident
14 August 2010, approximately 12.30 hours Stroe
D-HNOC
Robinson R44
Helicopter
During a positioning flight, both ground handling wheels were left attached to the helicopter. While hover taxiing before landing, the left ground handling wheel fell from the aircraft. The right ground handling wheel, however, was still attached to the right skid with its lifting handle pointing downwards. When the lifting handle hit the ground, the helicopter pivoted over to the left, the tail hit the ground and the tail, including the tail rotor, broke off. The helicopter became uncontrollable and came to a standstill lying on its side. The pilot suffered no injuries. The helicopter was damaged beyond repair.
D-HNOC was equipped with a single-walled aluminum fuel tank. This tank has proved to be vulnerable to post-accident fuel leaks and fires in other R44 accidents. To improve the R44 fuel system’s resistance to a post-accident fuel leak and possible fire, the helicopter manufacturer issued R44 Service Bulletin SB-78 (see Appendix C) on 20 December 2010. This bulletin requires R44 and R44 II helicopters with single-walled aluminum fuel tanks to be retrofitted with bladder- type tanks. With this modification the tank consists of a metal outer tank and a rubber inner tank which makes it double-walled and less vulnerable to fuel leaks and fire in the event of disruption of the outer tank. The SB states that compliance should be “as soon as practical but no later than 31 December 2014.”
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R-44 Clipper I
I've got a few questions, maybe some of you can help. I just started flying an r44 Clipper I. It has fixed floats and according to the POH, yes, the VNE is reduced. But the airspeed indicator has a placard that reads, "80kts VNE with floats". I'm not sure if this is correct or if one of the spanish speaking mechanics mis-read something regarding pop outs or if, in fact, that is the actual VNE of an R44 Clipper I with fixed floats on it? There is a placard under the collective regarding VNE 80kts "when floats are deployed", which I take is referring to pop-outs.
Also, when I first started going through the weight and balance I read that this aircraft has 7 unusable gallons of fuel. Is this common or is this possibly another mistake? I certainly use the 7 gallons in all my fuel calculations, but I spoke with a couple of guys I work with, also pilots, and they said that it is not correct.
I'm going through about 1q of oil every 1 1/2 hours, seems excessive to me? There's definitely some bleeding going on around the engine and head covers, I see it everyday.
Lastly, when shutting down the R44 at what cylinder head temp do you look for before closing the throttle and disengaging the clutch. I've heard and read many different things. It's not terribly hot here, stays around 30-32c almost everyday. I know this aircraft feels a bit underpowered and I'm wondering if there are problems regarding the amount of oil being used, possible loss of compression from the oil leaks, and if this R44 hasn't been cooled down properly in the past and I've got a valve issue. A lot of these guys that fly in this area just say 2 minutes at closed throttle and then you're good. But people I talk with are telling me completely different stories.
I'm new to the R44 and pretty low hour, so don't kill me over these questions, I just need some insight from pprune instead of getting advice from some of these guerilla pilots that fly down here who say not to worry about anything.
Also, when I first started going through the weight and balance I read that this aircraft has 7 unusable gallons of fuel. Is this common or is this possibly another mistake? I certainly use the 7 gallons in all my fuel calculations, but I spoke with a couple of guys I work with, also pilots, and they said that it is not correct.
I'm going through about 1q of oil every 1 1/2 hours, seems excessive to me? There's definitely some bleeding going on around the engine and head covers, I see it everyday.
Lastly, when shutting down the R44 at what cylinder head temp do you look for before closing the throttle and disengaging the clutch. I've heard and read many different things. It's not terribly hot here, stays around 30-32c almost everyday. I know this aircraft feels a bit underpowered and I'm wondering if there are problems regarding the amount of oil being used, possible loss of compression from the oil leaks, and if this R44 hasn't been cooled down properly in the past and I've got a valve issue. A lot of these guys that fly in this area just say 2 minutes at closed throttle and then you're good. But people I talk with are telling me completely different stories.
I'm new to the R44 and pretty low hour, so don't kill me over these questions, I just need some insight from pprune instead of getting advice from some of these guerilla pilots that fly down here who say not to worry about anything.
Last edited by Fracturelines; 5th Apr 2012 at 03:09.
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R44
Hi Fracturelines,
I cant answer all of your questions but here is my contribution, as a pilot/ owner with 800hrs on my own machines.
Engine - Sounds very tired to me. They shouldn't leak. My 2008 Raven 22 uses a litre of oil every 4-5 hours. I have never had any plug fouling issues.
Cooling down - I run mine at 65%, which also assists in finding the 'cyclic sweet spot', for around a minute, maybe 2 if I have been hovering extensively when hot/ heavy. I just look for a drop in temps.
Unuseable fuel - Can you imagine Frank R, who doesn't even want the added weight of door trims and seat backs, designing a machine with a fuel system that requires you to carry around over 40lbs of gas? Nah.
My advice? Flog it and buy a better one. I think there are a few question marks over your machine and its maintenance history. I wonder if it has..ahem.. done more than the Datcon would have you believe?
Watch out for those Gorilla's, they are out there in the 'midst'.
Happy flying.
HP
I cant answer all of your questions but here is my contribution, as a pilot/ owner with 800hrs on my own machines.
Engine - Sounds very tired to me. They shouldn't leak. My 2008 Raven 22 uses a litre of oil every 4-5 hours. I have never had any plug fouling issues.
Cooling down - I run mine at 65%, which also assists in finding the 'cyclic sweet spot', for around a minute, maybe 2 if I have been hovering extensively when hot/ heavy. I just look for a drop in temps.
Unuseable fuel - Can you imagine Frank R, who doesn't even want the added weight of door trims and seat backs, designing a machine with a fuel system that requires you to carry around over 40lbs of gas? Nah.
My advice? Flog it and buy a better one. I think there are a few question marks over your machine and its maintenance history. I wonder if it has..ahem.. done more than the Datcon would have you believe?
Watch out for those Gorilla's, they are out there in the 'midst'.
Happy flying.
HP
Maximum allowable oil consumption for Lycoming engines:
The clipper is rated at 245BHP, so according to this formula your limit is 0.8qt/hr.
1qt every 1.5hrs is very close to that - have you talked to the owner and the engineers? Anything over 1qt / 3hours is unusual, I wouldn't fly it if it goes through twice that....
Regarding the floats: The Robinson Fixed floats have a VNE of 110kts if I'm not mistaken (don't quote me). Your floats might be a different make. In any case, there should be a supplement in the flight manual that tells you exactly what your limit is. If the flight manual doesn't match the placards, something fishy is going on.
Originally Posted by Lycoming Manuals
The maximum allowable oil consumption limits for all Textron Lycoming aircraft engines can be determined by using the following formula:
.006 x BHP x 4 ÷ 7.4 = Qt./Hr.
.006 x BHP x 4 ÷ 7.4 = Qt./Hr.
1qt every 1.5hrs is very close to that - have you talked to the owner and the engineers? Anything over 1qt / 3hours is unusual, I wouldn't fly it if it goes through twice that....
Regarding the floats: The Robinson Fixed floats have a VNE of 110kts if I'm not mistaken (don't quote me). Your floats might be a different make. In any case, there should be a supplement in the flight manual that tells you exactly what your limit is. If the flight manual doesn't match the placards, something fishy is going on.
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R44 Clipper I Fixed Utility Floats
We also operate the R44 Clipper I with Fixed Floats:
80 kts VNE Placard - this is for R44's Clippers with POP OUT Floats, not fixed floats.
120 knots is VNE of Fixed Floats, subject to weight and also reducing with temp and alt. Get the R44 POH, Section 9-5 is the Fixed Float Supplememnt, Placard that should be shown is there (Section 2: 9-5.3). These are the VNE's you should use.
Unusable Fuel 7 Galls?
R44 POH Section 2 gives Fuel Limits (2-6)
Main Unusable is 1 US Gallon
Aux Unusable is 0.2 US Gallon
Total Unusable is 1.2 US Gallon
Are you confusing the "minimum landing fuel" which is normally around 7 US Gallons?
Cheers Jonny
80 kts VNE Placard - this is for R44's Clippers with POP OUT Floats, not fixed floats.
120 knots is VNE of Fixed Floats, subject to weight and also reducing with temp and alt. Get the R44 POH, Section 9-5 is the Fixed Float Supplememnt, Placard that should be shown is there (Section 2: 9-5.3). These are the VNE's you should use.
Unusable Fuel 7 Galls?
R44 POH Section 2 gives Fuel Limits (2-6)
Main Unusable is 1 US Gallon
Aux Unusable is 0.2 US Gallon
Total Unusable is 1.2 US Gallon
Are you confusing the "minimum landing fuel" which is normally around 7 US Gallons?
Cheers Jonny
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Hairyplane, Fracturelines is likely PPL working on his CPL/CFI. Never mentioned being owner. Flying something ain't the same.
True, about the unusable fuel. Sounds more like rough guide for min fuel to have left when landing back/at the end of flight on VFR flight. Look at some generic POH and compare it with yours. If it's updated correctly, the main difference would be obviously W&B specifics.
FL, you were right about the seemingly inconsistent 80kts VNE. Seriously low.
No need to point out flight schools etc, but having placards for pop out floats and actually having fixed ones, is just shoddy standards, if not against A&P's safety standards. It is entirely possible the frame had pop out floats and then it got changed. Why not sort the POH and placards? Actually, I do believe it's against the rules. Ramp check may not be a pleasant thing if it happens and docs are as they are.
True, about the unusable fuel. Sounds more like rough guide for min fuel to have left when landing back/at the end of flight on VFR flight. Look at some generic POH and compare it with yours. If it's updated correctly, the main difference would be obviously W&B specifics.
FL, you were right about the seemingly inconsistent 80kts VNE. Seriously low.
No need to point out flight schools etc, but having placards for pop out floats and actually having fixed ones, is just shoddy standards, if not against A&P's safety standards. It is entirely possible the frame had pop out floats and then it got changed. Why not sort the POH and placards? Actually, I do believe it's against the rules. Ramp check may not be a pleasant thing if it happens and docs are as they are.