Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Austrian cable car accident - Update

Wikiposts
Search
Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Austrian cable car accident - Update

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 7th Sep 2005, 09:20
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
All these 'holier than thou' attitudes. If we all ensured that we operated in a 100% safe environment no helicopter would ever get airborne. My condolences to the families that have been affected by this tragedy and my thoughts go out to the pilot. Accidents happen and some just seem to go wrong in the worst possible manner.
Don't tell me all the drivers that have slung loads have never flown over an obstacle, that if the load had released for whatever reason, could have caused death or destruction
Demented is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 09:54
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: T.B.A.
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I agree with the last two posts.

This job was done in the interest of the public. Can you imagine how beneficial it will be to have a fully functioning mobile telephone system in that ruggered part of the world and how many lives that will save in the future.
Recuperator is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 09:56
  #43 (permalink)  
GunsssR4ever
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Out there somewhere ...
Posts: 3,816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lightbulb

recouperator
Recent ops in Sandton, Pretoria University and at Johannesburg International Airport comes to mind. So I disagree with your statement Gunns that it isn't allowed.
Check my post mate ... I refer to many moons ago - specifically mentioned when Conrad Herbst and others died in the Mi-8 / 17 accident on top of the building in the CBD of CT.

You mention recent - so yes I will take your word for it mate - no problems but when Connies went down the CBD was cleared on a very early Sunday morning just after sunrise.

Cheers

Gunzzzzzzzz

imabell Yes that is exactly the sad accident that I am talking about. M ypost just referred to the time / place / safety issue re overflying a CBD etc ...

Yes a LOT of mistakes was made .. short strop .. Russian crew mized with Souf Efrikans ... comms gap - hughe comms gap. Slight tail wind / comms gap and short strop and in the ? Stannic Finance ? board he went.

Tragic as one of the Russians \'s daughter was watching from the top of another building.

I wa snever so drunk on a funeral before ... Nastarovia .. had LOADS of Vodka with the Russian Ambassador

tecpilot If you need to know / want to know more about my accident / our ops - feel free to mail me or open another thread and I will answer your needs but it seems like you know enough

Cheers

Really going to zzzleep now

Gunzzzzzzzzz
Gunship is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 12:09
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: T.B.A.
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Devil Managing risks...

I cannot agree with you more Guns that you have to minimise the risks, but was done in CT?

Just as roads were cleared and blocked off in Sandton, and the residential block and airport hall were vacated in PTA and JHB Intl. But was it done properly, could they have done more to make the lifts safer, even though there were no incidents?

I believe where this accident happened in the Alps, they felt that all precautions were taken.

Conrad wasn't just of the most professional pilots I knew, he was also a great person and he was taken away well before his time.

His accident was the second lift of the morning when it happened. Apparently, he was not flying the second lift; the co-pilot was and the co-pilot did not maintain directional control.

Their tail rotor contacted a Stannic billboard, with deadly consequences.

A longer strop and better comm's could have possibly averted the accident, but should they not have removed the bill board as well?

This is the same as saying should they not have stopped the traffic, or should they not have stopped the cable cars.

BUT...

There is always, always, always a risk involved in our business in helicopter aviation. It is a fluid, think on your feet situation we find ourselves in. Absolutely dynamic and the only constant we have in our environment is the constant changes happening. Should that be weather, wind, other traffic or any how ever small emergencies we are faced with. We weren't made to fly or we would have been issued with our own wings.

Nevertheless, even if we take away mechanical failures and mother nature, you will always have the human factor to deal with.

There are many aspects of helicopter flying and there are even more specialities and specialists. But, even the very experienced specialists get it wrong sometimes, or just get very unlucky, as it appear the case was here and unfortunately there were others involved in the accident that just compounded the severity of it.

Anybody dying in any helicopter related accident is always sad. However, as it is usually newsworthy and thus sensationalised and with the media is all over it like a bad rash, their often inaccurate reporting further hypes the situation.

Thus I agree it goes about managing the risks, but also having a large degree of luck on our sides often helps. **** doesn't always happen to someone else, sometimes it happens to us. Shot down, double engine failure, dynamic rollover, accidental jettison's etc, etc, say no more...

The pilot involved has to live with his conscience for the rest of his life, if he was right or wrong in his approach and decision making. Eitherway, I’m glad I don’t have that burden on me. Take care not to have that burdon placed on you...

Last edited by Recuperator; 7th Sep 2005 at 12:35.
Recuperator is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 12:32
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: World
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thought this made interesting reading from the 'Times' (UK).

'Austria, one of the world's top destinations for mountain sports, has more than 3,100 ski lifts which carry up to 550 million passengers a year.

The lifts can also be used in summer for hikers seeking to get in to the mountains, earn more than £540 million a year, and employ 12,000 people.'

Lot of people, lot of money and year round so not so easy to just stop operating the lifts I would guess.

A risk assesment must have been done before the job started so after a site down stairs was established, a route must have been thought about and maybe the only way to get the job done was over the lift.

Pilots must have had a heads together, checked the hook a few times and said "watch where you put those fingers, hey whats the odds, we are legal right"?

Of course I'm in to guess work here but then again so is every one else untill the report comes out, not sure I agree about the airmanship side.

In aviation we try and limit the risk but you cannot limit every factor, that goes for life as well.
CarryOnCopter is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 12:37
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Beyond the black stump!
Posts: 1,419
Received 15 Likes on 8 Posts
tecpilot, I am entirely familiar with the FAA requirements for formulating and approving a congested area plan. The congested area plan is required to ensure that when performing external load operations in what might be determined a congested area, that NO hazard is created that would endanger people or property on the ground.

You would NOT get any kind of approval to fly external loads over the public, or over inhabited property (within certain mitigating considerations). As the same basic rule is applicable to ANY external load operation, then the FAA would not permit the operation that caused this accident.

Each flight must be conducted at an altitude, and on a route, that will allow a jettisonable external load to be released, and the rotorcraft landed, in an emergency without hazard to persons or property on the surface.

If this operation were to be carried out in a congested area, the plan would require that the cable car be shut down, and no-one who is not involved with the job, would be allowed within the work area. At NO time, would the FAA permit an external load to be carried over people. If this operation were to be carried out in a non congested area, the same criteria would be in effect, but the Operator would be responsible for ensuring compliance with the rule.

Don't tell me all the drivers that have slung loads have never flown over an obstacle, that if the load had released for whatever reason, could have caused death or destruction
I am quite genuinely shocked at the attitude of some of the posters here to flying loads over people. If we don't have a clear line of flight that does not overfly people or populated buildings, we wouldn't even consider flying it.

Ever wonder why the move to tanks over buckets is occurring in urban interface fires?
Cyclic Hotline is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 14:58
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cyclic Hotline

I am quite genuinely shocked at the attitude of some of the posters here to flying loads over people.
I don't condone this at all but don't tell me it hasn't been done and won't be done again.
Demented is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 15:10
  #48 (permalink)  
GunsssR4ever
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Out there somewhere ...
Posts: 3,816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lightbulb

Life is full of lessons .. hopefully someone can learn from this tradgic accident. Hopefully next time you do that long line - maybe give a thought where the load might end at the moment you drop it now.

It saved my life by always thinking where to do my power - off if and when it happens ... took 7 000 hours and it happened.

Thanks God for good training and great instructors
Gunship is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 15:38
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Beyond the black stump!
Posts: 1,419
Received 15 Likes on 8 Posts
I will categorically state that I have NEVER been involved with any external load operation that has overflown people, or occupied premises, intentionally, at any time, nor would I permit it to happen, or be involved with it.

I say that on the basis of hundreds of construction lift jobs, and running operations that perform hundreds of external load lifts every day!

There is a damn good reason why operators that specialise in external load operations do not encounter accidents such as the one being discussed here. Completely and totally unacceptable operational practice.

And now I read today, that the cable car operator approved this operation to overfly their equipment. What is their experience in analysing this risk?
Cyclic Hotline is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 17:11
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Retired to Bisley from the small African nation
Age: 67
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unhappy

Well I take a big lesson from this. I do USL work only occasionally. I would of course avoid buildings / people on the ground. But I'm sure I have flown across a road with a load on before now, and I suspect it might not have occurred to me to consider an aerial cable carrying a gondola as "people to be avoided".

Question for guys who do this sort of work (USL liquid concrete) routinely: do you keep the hook live, or switch the cargo master off for the short transit element of the flight?

Never stop learning

Sven
Sven Sixtoo is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 17:39
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Yes, this is a big lesson for all of us.

To the last devolopments in this file.
The austrian air control agency, Austrocontrol, declared that there is no prohibition to overfly the cables, with or without gondolas.

To all the mediasluts there was today a first meeting with the type of accident helicopter SA 315B "Lama". A more than 11.000h aerial work pilot explained in front of a lot of cameras the helicopter, the kind of operation (hauling concrete), the ways to open the cargo hook and his view to the accident pilot. In our times it needs 2 days before the mediasluts are interested in reality and substance.

He stated" I don't believe the pilot have opened the hook" and confirmed the flight route across the cable as absolutely usually in this kind of business. The helicopter wasn't overloaded with 750kg concrete in such altitude. The release happened on a part of the flight circuit without any knob pressing (radio,..). Therefore it's unlikely that the pilot pressed a false knob.
tecpilot is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 18:08
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
Posts: 1,026
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am not a rotary pilot but I have been involved in H&S of and on over the last thirty years including railway and aviation projects. I am very surprised that the contractor did not have possession of the line for the few minutes of each pass. It would not have been that disruptive. I cannot believe that they passed over an occupied Gondola. I would have sacked any crane driver in the same situation. This said I feel for the pilot as well as the victims. It isn't something which you get over.
effortless is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 22:14
  #53 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 67
Posts: 10,149
Received 62 Likes on 50 Posts
effortless
I cannot believe that they passed over an occupied Gondola.
To re-post the quote from Page 2 on 6th September:
From the BBC website at 16:50 BST: The head of the Soelden cable cars, Jakob Falkner, said the helicopter flight above a moving cable car had been authorised.
PAXboy is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2005, 22:31
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Beyond the black stump!
Posts: 1,419
Received 15 Likes on 8 Posts
JAR-Ops 4 attempts to address the issue of risk analysis and responsibility.

Code of Practice

X – CONGESTED HOSTILE OPERATIONS
Operations in congested hostile environment can be conducted utilising helicopters certificated or approved, in accordance with JAR-OPS 4 subparts F and G. In addition the following applies:
a) Initial training and recurrent training
Congested hostile area operation technic, specific precaution to insure third parties protection, normal and emergency procedures for single engine helicopter operation.


Maybe there is some value to more regulation. I have to totally agree with the comments of effortless. You would not be permitted to lift a load over the top of the general public with a forklift, or crane, so why would you do it with a helicopter? Basic safety training on any lifting devices teaches you to never stand under any load. For anyone involved to think that just because it is not specifically prohibited that it must be OK, simply makes me cringe.

This entire accident defies all safe operating practices and common sense. Not just for helicopter operations, but from a basic industrial safety stand-point. I will be even more shocked if there are no Health and Safety regulations in Austria, that also address this issue.
Cyclic Hotline is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2005, 06:52
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vienna
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes it is poor management because that freakin cable car should not have been in operation. And apart from that two pilots where in the cockpit - one high timer and one low timer - those are the facts. So in my opinion, the high timer is responsible for what the low timer did or not.
Please, besides that most of us here only have information relaed through the media - media of which we know do not care about facts in such cases - even a good and thorough media report would most likely not be able to find and transport all details necessary to cover this incident.

Honestly, in a forum like this I expect a more professional attitude.

To the accident itself: As already pointed out here by many others, it is impossible to stop the operation of a cable car / tram / etc. etc. just because a chopper is flying somewhere overhead.
This would mean the immediate breakdown of any public transport in an urban area and would make a cable car useless.
There are not only cargo flights conducted throughout the day, but also emergency flights, police flights, military flights, traffic surveillance,....

A helicopter on an emergency flight to Vienna's General Hospital crosses at least 10 tram lines (depending on the direction of approach). Besides that it would take time to stop the traffic (during whcih the helicopter would have to wait) it would not enlarge the safety of the chopper greatly, because the cable would still be there. Furthermore it would take hours during peak traffic to clear a path for the chopper without any obstacles. All this assuming that the patient in the chopper has plenty of time, the chopper plenty of fuel and there is only one flight at a time.

The same is true for flights above the lines of cable cars - especially in the winter you have plenty of ambulance flights, which cannot fly around every cablecar. In some areas there are so many cars, large parts of the Alps would not be reachable at all and the cable car could not work for one hour without interruption.

DEMANDING TO CEASE OPERATIONS IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS!

Regards, Bernhard
N5528P is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2005, 08:26
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vienna
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Each flight must be conducted at an altitude, and on a route, that will allow a jettisonable external load to be released, and the rotorcraft landed, in an emergency without hazard to persons or property on the surface.
@ Cyclic Hotline:

I am well aware of the rules and the Austrian regulation means more or less the same as the rule made by the FAA.

We all know that laws are very often made to ensure that the lawmakers cannot be held responsible. I would like to know how you would execute an emergency release without any damage to property? This is impossible, especially so over urban area.

I cannot imagine that in every ski ressort in the US (for example), the cable cars cease their work just because a chopper is in the area . As a matter if fact, you do not have one cable car - in large ski ressorts you have 30 to 40 of such installations. Do you really believe they always stop because of a chopper? I really doubt that...

I am fine with limitations regarding the distance to the cables / above them, but everything else is completely unrealistic if you have ever been in such an area.

Regards, Bernhard
N5528P is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2005, 08:49
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
Posts: 1,026
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The point I made was that he flew with an underslung load over an occupied cable car. You cannot carry a load by crane over traffic nor over a train. At the very least you have to wait until the traffic has passed. The helicopter could have crossed behind the gondola. This would have presented a smaller target at the very least. This thread has demonstrated that underslung loads do slip more often than we would like. They certainly used to from cranes. We had many fatalities in the sixties on site. The consequence was the Health and Safety At Work Act 1974. Nowadays we rarely have anyone hurt due to a strop failure or similar in cranework.

Austrian H&S is as strong as any in the world.
effortless is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2005, 08:53
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,327
Received 622 Likes on 270 Posts
N5528P, I think you have missed the point here Bernhard, a helicopter flying without an external load does not present the same risk as a helicopter flying with an external load.

External loads are notoriously fickle and sometimes they need to be jettisoned for the safety of the aircraft and sometimes bits fall off them and, as in this case, sometimes the load slinging equipment fails/malfunctions. That is why overflight of people, structures etc should be avoided as much as possible when carrying out external load operations.

A heli going into a hospital still might crash on finals over a road but the likelihood of it happening is tiny compared to an external load incident.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2005, 11:22
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: planet earth
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's a sad time when our industry is involved in such an unfortunate accident where many innocent lives have been lost and families torn apart forever. Could this have prevented? Sure. Shut down the cable cars until the USL operation was completed. Could the loss of revenue have been the main reason the cable car operator agreed to allow helicopter operations to continue overhead whilst placing the public in harms way? I certainly hope not. It would be interesting to see if the cable car operator and the helicopter operator had their "safety experts" carry out one of their risk analysis prior to commencement to the USL operation. If not, shame on them. If so, shame on them. Safety, safety, safety, seems to be the buzz word of the times. Where were the "safety experts" in this debacle?
My condolences to the innocent. To those that could have possibly prevented this loss of precious life, may God have mercy on your souls.
munchkins is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2005, 12:31
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Beyond the black stump!
Posts: 1,419
Received 15 Likes on 8 Posts
Bernhard,

As crab has already pointed out, my comments are specific to external load operations ONLY. There is no need to shut down anything, so long as the load doesn't overfly it. I have never, and would never, suggest that these limitations be applied to any other helicopter operations.

I have constructed a large number of ski-lifts, along with just about everything else you could build (or take apart) with a helicopter, so I am intimately familiar with the layout of a ski area. There are NO circumstances that we would overfly an active cable car, with anyone on board it.

It is easy to avoid/mitigate exposure to risk when performing external load operations. In a congested area, it is achieved by picking each load immediately adjacent to the site, if it is otherwise impossible to avoid overflight of buildings or individuals.

No load would EVER be flown over any property without the permission of the respective property owner. You can guarantee that any other property owner is going to want a copy of the insurance policy that will be covering them. By ensuring this in advance of the operation, you have already taken responsibility for all damage that might occur under any circumstance. In this process, you have already got written permission from any property owner that might experience damage or loss in the event a load is dropped and notified them all of your intent. Most of the time, the only property owner who is going to get overflown, is the one doing the job.

In order to perform this operation and exclude the public from the area, it is essential to co-ordinate this with whatever local government agencies, police, etc; that have jurisdiction in the area.

Downtown areas may not be considered a congested area at 06:30 on Sunday morning. This is when much of this kind of work is done. With the police keeping outsiders and interested parties at a safe distance, it is easy to achieve every safety goal.

Once you have considered every aspect of the job, and if the customer is still interested (generally they are not using helicopters just for the sake of it), all of this can be contained in a detailed lift plan, which can be submitted to the FAA (or whichever responsible agency) as a congested area plan. No-one from any government agency is going to approve that plan (read responsibility) if you have not done the job properly. Mandatory safety meetings for everyone involved in the project prior to any lift work starting ensure that everyone knows the plan, who is responsible for what, what happens in the event of any problems and how to react in the event of emergency.

Safety is no buzz word. Safety has to be a committed and integral culture as the absolute foundation of any and every helicopter operation. If not, the outcome will make you wish it were!

How else would anyone here perform a job of this nature? Anyone?

This accident is a real tragedy for everyone involved, but nothing will change the ultimate responsibility for planning and executing the job. This should never have happened.
Cyclic Hotline is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.