Why not operating an russian helicopter?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: ?
Why not operating an russian helicopter?
I wonder why russian helicopters are not very common in Europe and the USA.
On the other hand European and American helicopters are not very common in Africa and parts of Asia.
Why is this so?
Are there differences in the maintenance sequences?
What are the cost differences between western and eastern machines, and how does it depend on the location?
I hope somebody can help me understand the world of helicopters.
Regards…
On the other hand European and American helicopters are not very common in Africa and parts of Asia.
Why is this so?
Are there differences in the maintenance sequences?
What are the cost differences between western and eastern machines, and how does it depend on the location?
I hope somebody can help me understand the world of helicopters.
Regards…
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Iceland
It is because they are not approved by European JAA & US FAA aviation authorities.
That does not mean they cannot be approved but it is very expensive process and for the Russians the market in Europe is simply not big enough to bother.
I have myself flown Russian Mi17 and visited the factory in Kazan. Excellent helicopters and very nice to fly.
I remember we discussed that we would need some huge hangars to house the beasts and the Russians would just look at each other and talk a bit in Russian! Then they asked us why in the world we would want to put them in hangar.. they are designed to be parked outside and are not hangared f.ex in Siberia
That does not mean they cannot be approved but it is very expensive process and for the Russians the market in Europe is simply not big enough to bother.
I have myself flown Russian Mi17 and visited the factory in Kazan. Excellent helicopters and very nice to fly.
I remember we discussed that we would need some huge hangars to house the beasts and the Russians would just look at each other and talk a bit in Russian! Then they asked us why in the world we would want to put them in hangar.. they are designed to be parked outside and are not hangared f.ex in Siberia
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
I did some Mi-2 and Mi-8 flying in Russia a couple of years ago. With an instructor, the Mi-2 cost me about the same as R22 self-fly hire in the UK, and the Mi-8 was about twice that. So...maybe Ł150 dual for the Mi-2, Ł300 for the Mi-8, roughly; I can't remember exactly.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Iceland
Which western Helicopter would be comparable in the class of th Mi-8?
So the Russian helicopters are much cheaper to hire or operate but then again they don´t have to pay European wages.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: USA
The actual payload and range of the Mi-8 put it exactly in the S-61/S-92 class.
The biggest reason for the lower prices per hour is the state of the Russian economy, as well as that of the former client states that carry enormous amounts of spares, willing to sell them for literally cents on the dollar. There is nothing inherently "unsafe" about the classic Russian designs, but there is much that simply does not meet the standard of a modern western helo. The design philosophy was to build rugged, cheap to buy, cheap to operate military aircraft (the "civil" models have a paint job) that did a good job of ferrying hundreds of thousands of troops in battle. The massive Russian war machine was equipped with about 5,000 operational Mi-8's and about half that of Mi-24 gunships.
The overhaul times are awful, the airworthiness control of spares is practically nil (Chinese knockoffs made in bicycle factories are world-wide nightmare for the Mil guys) and their accident rate is eye-watering. They are used in the former Soviet client states because that is what they are used to and what they can afford (a legacy of how very successful Communism was, frankly, to everyone who embraced it!)
I have the deepest respect for the folks who made these machines (I am friends with Dr. Marat Tischenko, chief designer of the Mi family for 2 decades and Gorgen Karapetyan, their former chief pilot). The newest generation of Russian designs will have the design features, certification basis and maintenance controls to compete world-wide, I am sure.
The biggest reason for the lower prices per hour is the state of the Russian economy, as well as that of the former client states that carry enormous amounts of spares, willing to sell them for literally cents on the dollar. There is nothing inherently "unsafe" about the classic Russian designs, but there is much that simply does not meet the standard of a modern western helo. The design philosophy was to build rugged, cheap to buy, cheap to operate military aircraft (the "civil" models have a paint job) that did a good job of ferrying hundreds of thousands of troops in battle. The massive Russian war machine was equipped with about 5,000 operational Mi-8's and about half that of Mi-24 gunships.
The overhaul times are awful, the airworthiness control of spares is practically nil (Chinese knockoffs made in bicycle factories are world-wide nightmare for the Mil guys) and their accident rate is eye-watering. They are used in the former Soviet client states because that is what they are used to and what they can afford (a legacy of how very successful Communism was, frankly, to everyone who embraced it!)
I have the deepest respect for the folks who made these machines (I am friends with Dr. Marat Tischenko, chief designer of the Mi family for 2 decades and Gorgen Karapetyan, their former chief pilot). The newest generation of Russian designs will have the design features, certification basis and maintenance controls to compete world-wide, I am sure.
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Philadelphia PA
Adding to the problem is the lack of operational control / training of some of the Russian pilots - not all of them, but the bad ones do give a lot of others a poor reputation.
One operator who does have Russian helicopters (VIH Logging in Victoria, BC) has had excellent success with them with Canadian pilots. One of their comments when they were getting checked out by the Russian pilots was that they never saw the helicopter started the same way twice, even by the same pilot.
Checklists? why would you want to use a checklist???
Once they sorted out the spares situation, they are really racking up the hours, and the machines perform very well. But it was very very long road to get to Canadian approval.
One operator who does have Russian helicopters (VIH Logging in Victoria, BC) has had excellent success with them with Canadian pilots. One of their comments when they were getting checked out by the Russian pilots was that they never saw the helicopter started the same way twice, even by the same pilot.
Checklists? why would you want to use a checklist???
Once they sorted out the spares situation, they are really racking up the hours, and the machines perform very well. But it was very very long road to get to Canadian approval.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Iceland
Checklists? why would you want to use a checklist???
However the Russians can provide first class training if customers want it. At Kazan we asked how much time it would take to get type rating in the Mi17, they said the school was 3 months!! say WHAT!
Yes apparantly the pilots go through the same course as the mechanics (engineers) for the first 2 months and then they start flight specific training for the last month.
I have also flown the Mi17 simulator in St. Petersburg and it´s really good although not a full motion simulator but seriously even when flying the excellent full motion sims at Flight Safety you hardly notice if they are taken off motion for instructor replacement etc.
Thanks: Another St Ivian, figured it out finally
Last edited by Aesir; 21st August 2005 at 22:01.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: ?
I read that the average fuel consumption per hour of a Mi-8 is about 800 Liters.
How much does an S-61/S-92 need in an hour?
Is the overhaul schedule different of a Mi-8 in comparison to a “western” helicopter?
When these machines are designed to be operated in remote areas, do they have 100h/300h etc. controls or do they have a “big” overhaul after a certain time?
I hope you understand what I try to say.
It would be interesting to hear about the differences in the maintenance schedule.
How much does an S-61/S-92 need in an hour?
Is the overhaul schedule different of a Mi-8 in comparison to a “western” helicopter?
When these machines are designed to be operated in remote areas, do they have 100h/300h etc. controls or do they have a “big” overhaul after a certain time?
I hope you understand what I try to say.
It would be interesting to hear about the differences in the maintenance schedule.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: In my house
The fuel consumption of the MI8 T is around 800 litres per hour. Maintenace ispections are on a 75 hour cycle, ie 75, 150, 225 etc.
Each inspection can be carried out within 20 hours of the 75 hour time limit, ie the 75 can be done between 55 and 95 hours.
Aircraft are flown with 2 pilots and a flight engineer.in Russia. The engineer usually performs the start and shutdown. He sits on the jump seat.
The pilot seats have no shoulder harness and the jump seat has no seat belt of any description!!
Each inspection can be carried out within 20 hours of the 75 hour time limit, ie the 75 can be done between 55 and 95 hours.
Aircraft are flown with 2 pilots and a flight engineer.in Russia. The engineer usually performs the start and shutdown. He sits on the jump seat.
The pilot seats have no shoulder harness and the jump seat has no seat belt of any description!!
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Iceland
No minimum crew is 3! Two pilots and flight engineer.
Major overhaul is at 1500 hrs, similar to many western helicopters, there is no scheduled component replacement within the 1500 hrs except for some component in the tailrotor at 800 hrs.
Major overhaul is at 1500 hrs, similar to many western helicopters, there is no scheduled component replacement within the 1500 hrs except for some component in the tailrotor at 800 hrs.
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Desert Rat
Mi-8
Well, how much would an MI-8 cost per hour if the aircraft would be operated in western Europe? Tried to find some information about BSF (Berliner Spezialflug) but could not come up with a good answer.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Europe
BSF (Berliner Spezialflug) seems to be complete or nearly complete out of business. It's impossible in Europe as a german and LBA-JAA guided and pressed company to compete with russians also with operating russian helicopters. Some years ago their price was round about 3500€ would means at the moment 4375 USD per hour to get their Mi-8.
It's not the russian helicopter making the absolutely low price it's the way to operate the ship and under which circumstances.
It's also impossible to get a permission to operate newer russian ships in Germany because of the strict "NO" by the german authorities because of lacking western type certifications.
They junked more than 80 eastgerman Mi-8 after the reunification.
A lowtime ex-eastgerman Mi-8 exploded 2002 in the Pinewood Studios to bring fire in to "007"
A german project to convert very cheap ex marine Mi-14 helicopters to 4000 liters "Helitankers" also flopped because of "european problems".
It's not the russian helicopter making the absolutely low price it's the way to operate the ship and under which circumstances.
It's also impossible to get a permission to operate newer russian ships in Germany because of the strict "NO" by the german authorities because of lacking western type certifications.
They junked more than 80 eastgerman Mi-8 after the reunification.
A lowtime ex-eastgerman Mi-8 exploded 2002 in the Pinewood Studios to bring fire in to "007"
A german project to convert very cheap ex marine Mi-14 helicopters to 4000 liters "Helitankers" also flopped because of "european problems".
Last edited by tecpilot; 22nd August 2005 at 10:51.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 506
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From: Europe
Which russian helicopters have a FAA/JAA certification? I know about the Ka-32 in Switzerland and Canada.
Mi-8 in Germany
Mi-8 in Germany
A FOCA limited permission (Switzerland) is no FAA/JAA certification.
The Mi-8 in Germany are limited and counted former eastgerman helicopters. No new possible after the reunification.
