Why not operating an russian helicopter?
Swiss certification as said by FOCA and limited to aerial work. It's impossible to register this ships in other european countries.
Or do you mean with modifications on the hydraulics the ships meet western (JAA/FAA) standards?
To meet the JAR/FAR 29 standards the ships must be completely new designed...
Or do you mean with modifications on the hydraulics the ships meet western (JAA/FAA) standards?
To meet the JAR/FAR 29 standards the ships must be completely new designed...
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Hi Tecpilot,
as far as I know BSF is back to business. They finally managed to find some money to get the required overhauls done and are back up in the air flying.
Do you know if those two demonstrators of the above MI 14 are still "based" in Sacramento?
as far as I know BSF is back to business. They finally managed to find some money to get the required overhauls done and are back up in the air flying.
Do you know if those two demonstrators of the above MI 14 are still "based" in Sacramento?
Last edited by Spunk; 22nd Aug 2005 at 19:50.
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Concerning Russian helicopters in JAA/EASA, I remember this article, describing how Malta Air Charter had to stop operating their leased Mil-8 at the time Malta entered JAA because they don't comply with JAR-OPS 3 ..
Link to article: http://www.airmalta.com/page.jsp?id=4248&siteid=1
For what I know, spanish HeliSureste is now operating on Malta with a Bell 412 ..
Link to article: http://www.airmalta.com/page.jsp?id=4248&siteid=1
For what I know, spanish HeliSureste is now operating on Malta with a Bell 412 ..
Is it to keep the russians off the FAA/JAA market, or are these helicopters really that far away of our standards?
But from my discussions with the Russian Kazan helicopters that they are not really very interested in certifing the Mi17 in Europe. Mainly because of cost and that the market is not big enough for return on the investment. They are also concerned that western operators and customers would be biased against Russian helicopters and that it would be a tough market to come into anyway.
In the major overhaul at 1500 hrs everything is replaced and I mean EVERYTHING! Including the wiring harness, engines of course and all rotating components.
Itīs pretty much the same process as the Robinson overhaul. You have pretty much a new machine after the overhaul.
I have flown machines straight out of the overhaul and there were no snags, absolutely none! The quality of workmanship at the established overhaul centers is second to none.
I am in no way an expert on the Mi17 but I was impressed by the quality of work and professionalism by the factory and the overhaul centers I have visited. Just because some operators donīt put much work into the paint on their machines does not mean that they are no good.
I have been offered jobs flying the Mi17 but the pay is usually not very good because of the availability of Russian pilots. The pay is the only reason why Iīm not flying Mi17 now.
Itīs pretty much the same process as the Robinson overhaul. You have pretty much a new machine after the overhaul.
I have flown machines straight out of the overhaul and there were no snags, absolutely none! The quality of workmanship at the established overhaul centers is second to none.
I am in no way an expert on the Mi17 but I was impressed by the quality of work and professionalism by the factory and the overhaul centers I have visited. Just because some operators donīt put much work into the paint on their machines does not mean that they are no good.
I have been offered jobs flying the Mi17 but the pay is usually not very good because of the availability of Russian pilots. The pay is the only reason why Iīm not flying Mi17 now.
In 92-93 ,I have had to deal and fly on MI 8 AMT (or MI 17-1) built by Ulan Ude production factory...really a great helicopter perfectly adapted to tough conditions....and I don't think one of our "westerner" equivalent could have done the same job so easily. Neverheless, talking about "our"certification standarts, everything, except maybe performances is out target.
Life times are so terribly short because this helicopter has been initialy designed to comply with military standarts for a battlefield with almost no maintenance. A factory engineer told me the life times could probably be extented , but at this time no real study had been done in this matter.
Latter, I have seen civil Mi17s operating in South America, with great efficiency once again in difficult conditions
As I have already quoted in a previous post I only regreat not to have taken a type qualification and flown them after my "russian tour"
Life times are so terribly short because this helicopter has been initialy designed to comply with military standarts for a battlefield with almost no maintenance. A factory engineer told me the life times could probably be extented , but at this time no real study had been done in this matter.
Latter, I have seen civil Mi17s operating in South America, with great efficiency once again in difficult conditions
As I have already quoted in a previous post I only regreat not to have taken a type qualification and flown them after my "russian tour"
With more than 100 flighthours on Mi-8's as pilot and a/c commander on the most common operations day/night and IFR including firing unguided missiles i think the ship is ok, but it never comes to the western standard of such a/c in this weight limits.
May be some of you guys, usually flying lighter ships are impressed, but the ship must be compared with Super Pumas or other really big helicopters.
The avionics are on a level 1970 including AP, 1500 h for a full job TBO is crazy, the engine reaction time is the lowest i have ever seen on turbine helicopters. There is a sentence " For gods sake don't pull the collective more than 1° per second!!!". The oil and fuel consumption is adventurous. The cabin is cluttered, more than 90 switches and circuit breakers.
The ship is cheap, it's cheap built, completely without modern material. The hydraulics have only one tank. In case of a single hydraulic failure it's better to land immediately before you run out of hydraulic fluid. The ship is old, constructed in the sixties and due to the changes in Russia and the world and the market with thousends of Mi-8's, design changes in the last 20 years are marginal.
The market is overflooded with thousends of ships, with and without papers, ex- mil and civ ships. Nobody knows from which sources the older ships come, bogus parts, overtimed "refreshed" parts, nobody have control. For a few bucks you can have anything on the papers in russia you need.
Lets swarm Whirly about their times in Russia, about the few bucks (R-22 price) she paid proud for "Twins". Nobody knows if her flighttimes now even could be found in the a/c books. May be it was only a little private business by some guys on a desolate airfield. The new and old owners have only one intention, making some dollars in this "eastern pioneer times".
But this is not the problem of the ships. It's the market.
Who thinks the ship is to operate with 1050 USD per hour is mad. Thats only the price for the 3 man crew, the 2-3 mechanics and the needed fuel. Wow, I forgot the price for a eraser to bring new hours to the ship
The absolutely best part on this ship is the perfect kerosene heater, making the ships cabin on OAT -30° in a few minutes hot like hell - on the ground without running engines!
i think the ship is ok, but it never comes to the western standard of such a/c in this weight limits.May be some of you guys, usually flying lighter ships are impressed, but the ship must be compared with Super Pumas or other really big helicopters.
The avionics are on a level 1970 including AP, 1500 h for a full job TBO is crazy, the engine reaction time is the lowest i have ever seen on turbine helicopters. There is a sentence " For gods sake don't pull the collective more than 1° per second!!!". The oil and fuel consumption is adventurous. The cabin is cluttered, more than 90 switches and circuit breakers.
The ship is cheap, it's cheap built, completely without modern material. The hydraulics have only one tank. In case of a single hydraulic failure it's better to land immediately before you run out of hydraulic fluid. The ship is old, constructed in the sixties and due to the changes in Russia and the world and the market with thousends of Mi-8's, design changes in the last 20 years are marginal.
The market is overflooded with thousends of ships, with and without papers, ex- mil and civ ships. Nobody knows from which sources the older ships come, bogus parts, overtimed "refreshed" parts, nobody have control. For a few bucks you can have anything on the papers in russia you need.
Lets swarm Whirly about their times in Russia, about the few bucks (R-22 price) she paid proud for "Twins". Nobody knows if her flighttimes now even could be found in the a/c books. May be it was only a little private business by some guys on a desolate airfield. The new and old owners have only one intention, making some dollars in this "eastern pioneer times".
But this is not the problem of the ships. It's the market.
Who thinks the ship is to operate with 1050 USD per hour is mad. Thats only the price for the 3 man crew, the 2-3 mechanics and the needed fuel. Wow, I forgot the price for a eraser to bring new hours to the ship
The absolutely best part on this ship is the perfect kerosene heater, making the ships cabin on OAT -30° in a few minutes hot like hell - on the ground without running engines!
Last edited by tecpilot; 24th Aug 2005 at 20:47.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Sorry Guys/Gals and Nick Lappos,
BUT NONE OF THE ABOVE IS CORRECT!
The reason we don't see Russian Helicopters such as the MI-8, MI-17, MI-26, KA-32 in use in the west is for one simple reason.....NO PAPER TRAIL!
We tried in the 90's to certify an MI-8 MTV for western service but because we could not satisfy the west that the T/R for instance came fro MI, not the local MI managers second cousins tractor factory, we could not certify the helicopter.
I understand that Kamov is now producing a FAA/CAA/TC certified version of the 32 that will put 61's/64's and all other contenders out of the heavy lift business!
I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.
OffshoreIgor
BUT NONE OF THE ABOVE IS CORRECT!
The reason we don't see Russian Helicopters such as the MI-8, MI-17, MI-26, KA-32 in use in the west is for one simple reason.....NO PAPER TRAIL!
We tried in the 90's to certify an MI-8 MTV for western service but because we could not satisfy the west that the T/R for instance came fro MI, not the local MI managers second cousins tractor factory, we could not certify the helicopter.
I understand that Kamov is now producing a FAA/CAA/TC certified version of the 32 that will put 61's/64's and all other contenders out of the heavy lift business!
I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.
OffshoreIgor
Canadian operator Vancouver Island Helicopters (VIH) owns three Ka-32As as part of its more than 80 helicopter fleet, one of which has flown more than 10,000 hours. The Vancouver-owned Ka-32As are the only examples of their type in North America.Modifications required to obtain Canadian certification included dual hydraulics, updated instrument package and firewalls on the air-start APU. The result is a unique Ka-32A11BC model number that signifies a Kamov Ka-32 acceptable for Canadian registration. Currently, the Ka-32 cannot be registered in the U.S., but Kamov is working on obtaining an FAA type certificate in the future. The swiss model isn't the same as the canadian. Both are unique ships, different from another.
This is impossible, the koax main rotor system on the Ka-32 doesn't allow speeds greater than 140-145kt.
I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Sorry Tecpilot,
We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts. Simple Math. Oh yeah I forgot......VNE to a Russian means Nada.
What types do you fly and how fast do you really think they go. I used to be with MTF.
OffshoreIgor
We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts. Simple Math. Oh yeah I forgot......VNE to a Russian means Nada.
What types do you fly and how fast do you really think they go. I used to be with MTF.
OffshoreIgor
The PZL Sokol does have western Type certificate
Thatīs an interesting helicopter. Does anyone know of any operated by JAA or FAA operators?
Thatīs an interesting helicopter. Does anyone know of any operated by JAA or FAA operators?
A PZL Sokol W-3A is operated by the saxonian police in Germany. First they operated 2 but sadly they lost one including crew in january 2005 may be due to LTE. The single pilot was absolutely unexperienced, with 300h completely and 30 on type, not to understand. Have it flown first on a visit in Swidnik in 1992 before the western certification and later again. Can confirm it's interesting, but the TBO's are also low. The ship is also cheap and in my opinion more worth to do a look on it as to the russian ships. PZL isn't very great and fast with spare parts but they have the things better under control than the russians. The W-3A is a nice and strong ship FAA and JAA approved, completely western avionics, glass cockpit, FLIR, NVG, Hoist, nearly anything you want, up to 14 pax, or VIP, nice to fly but MTOW is also more than 6to on a payload round about 2to.
If anybody is interested on eastern models thats the only ship i would take a look.
If anybody is interested on eastern models thats the only ship i would take a look.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Tecpilot
I'm curious as to why you chose that name as your posts dont reflect that level.
My online name says it all, I fly offshore with 8000 hrs on Sikorsky.
Not a dis but I'm really curious.
OffshoreIgor
I'm curious as to why you chose that name as your posts dont reflect that level.
My online name says it all, I fly offshore with 8000 hrs on Sikorsky.
Not a dis but I'm really curious.
OffshoreIgor
offshoreigor
I'm so sorry about your critics. What do you expect on the forum or from my side? Filling pages technical blah-blah?
Ok,i try one:
Technical report engine TV2-117A used on russian helicopters Mi-8:
The engine is left turning, the empty weight ist 332,5 kg.
Power: 1100 KW limited to 6 minutes on a max T4 850°C
880 KW limited to 60 minutes on a max T4 790°C
735 KW unlimited on a max T4 600°C
RPM: Compressor: 21.200
Powerturbine: 12.000 means 95,3% indication in %
Compressorstage: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Number of blades: 21 23 33 45 49 53 57 55 55 57
The angle of the statorblades on stage 1-3 is changeable with a servo working pressure 2750kPa...
Sorry offshoreigor i'm tired...
I'm so sorry about your critics. What do you expect on the forum or from my side? Filling pages technical blah-blah?
Ok,i try one:
Technical report engine TV2-117A used on russian helicopters Mi-8:
The engine is left turning, the empty weight ist 332,5 kg.
Power: 1100 KW limited to 6 minutes on a max T4 850°C
880 KW limited to 60 minutes on a max T4 790°C
735 KW unlimited on a max T4 600°C
RPM: Compressor: 21.200
Powerturbine: 12.000 means 95,3% indication in %
Compressorstage: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Number of blades: 21 23 33 45 49 53 57 55 55 57
The angle of the statorblades on stage 1-3 is changeable with a servo working pressure 2750kPa...
Sorry offshoreigor i'm tired...
Last edited by tecpilot; 25th Aug 2005 at 08:39.
tecpilot & offshoreigor:
So... 50 kts of tailwind?
You are discussing about IAS and Ground Speed, aren't you?
I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is impossible, the koax main rotor system on the Ka-32 doesn't allow speeds greater than 140-145kt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is impossible, the koax main rotor system on the Ka-32 doesn't allow speeds greater than 140-145kt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts.
You are discussing about IAS and Ground Speed, aren't you?
190 Kts with a KA32 !!!! looks to me more like a free fall speed for this type of helicopter designed for anti submarine ops. Russians used to nickname this helicopter " the sabre dance" I am trying to imagine these long blades sailing and drag at this airspeed !