Bell 407
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Bronx - I was talking with people in San Diego and after the fires they are looking at buying six 412s for fire fighting duties so that will add to their numbers.
I think you will find that this happens a lot in Southern Cal now, striking while the irons hot.
I saw the drawings for their new Jetranger size aircraft and its probably the most gorgeous looking helicopter I have ever seen, and it includes a Fenestron tail which surprised me. If they get this aircraft up and running, in its modular type form, then Bell will start getting a lot of the market back from Eurocopter because they have the best customer service by miles.
The 407 is a great machine and also one of my favourites.
I think you will find that this happens a lot in Southern Cal now, striking while the irons hot.
I saw the drawings for their new Jetranger size aircraft and its probably the most gorgeous looking helicopter I have ever seen, and it includes a Fenestron tail which surprised me. If they get this aircraft up and running, in its modular type form, then Bell will start getting a lot of the market back from Eurocopter because they have the best customer service by miles.
The 407 is a great machine and also one of my favourites.
I guess my original post was directed at asking whether it was worg doing the 407 rating or not.
Guess not. Unless someone wants do buy one, base it at Thruxton, and specifiy on the insurance that I'm the sole CPL allowed to fly it !
BTW - evening Pete and Tim.
Nr F
That seems to be the answer, and the discussion's broadened, so I've amended your topic title.
Heliport.
Guess not. Unless someone wants do buy one, base it at Thruxton, and specifiy on the insurance that I'm the sole CPL allowed to fly it !
BTW - evening Pete and Tim.
Nr F
That seems to be the answer, and the discussion's broadened, so I've amended your topic title.
Heliport.
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Can I broaden it a bit more?
A consistent message I get, referring to an earlier post above, is that Bell's customer support is excellent ("almost a religion at Bell" was one quote) whereas even Bigay (at the time) admitted Eurocopter could do better.
Anyone got any examples?
Anyone got any examples?
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Bell JRX Program
Hi All,
I remember reading a few years ago an article that Bell was developing a Jetranger replacement Titled the JRX.
I saw an artist impression and it looked like a smaller version of a 407 with a 4 bladed composite main rotor, an open cabin similair to the EC range without the centre pillar.
there was talk that Bell had dropped the idea, but has anyone heard if they are still looking into the concept.
PS: i dont think they will ever replace the J-Ranger( well i hope not) they are a great helo and i feel at home every time i Jump in the seat
Cheers Guys any info would be great.
I remember reading a few years ago an article that Bell was developing a Jetranger replacement Titled the JRX.
I saw an artist impression and it looked like a smaller version of a 407 with a 4 bladed composite main rotor, an open cabin similair to the EC range without the centre pillar.
there was talk that Bell had dropped the idea, but has anyone heard if they are still looking into the concept.
PS: i dont think they will ever replace the J-Ranger( well i hope not) they are a great helo and i feel at home every time i Jump in the seat
Cheers Guys any info would be great.
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Bronx
30 deliveries of 412s by the end of the year -yes, possible, but how many are military? I guess most/all of the Saudi order for 16 are in your figure. I seem to recall 2 or 3 years ago (perhaps more) that Bell said they had decided to stop developing any new 412 variants.
30 deliveries of 412s by the end of the year -yes, possible, but how many are military? I guess most/all of the Saudi order for 16 are in your figure. I seem to recall 2 or 3 years ago (perhaps more) that Bell said they had decided to stop developing any new 412 variants.
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IMHO, Bell has looked after our 407's royally, could be that we're the largest Canadian operator of the type, and/or run a complete Bell fleet (206BIII, L3, 407, 205-17, 212HP).
I'm flying a ship with a new utility Interior that Bell installed for "test" purposes, quite a bit lighter than the original one, and tough.
If we ever encounter problems, the local Bell service tech is here in a flash.
Never ever saw an EC service tech in person? ...or do they even exist?
Regarding operating the 407, I've never flown any type that was so agile, responsive, reliable, and most of all just plain old FUN !
I'm flying a ship with a new utility Interior that Bell installed for "test" purposes, quite a bit lighter than the original one, and tough.
If we ever encounter problems, the local Bell service tech is here in a flash.
Never ever saw an EC service tech in person? ...or do they even exist?
Regarding operating the 407, I've never flown any type that was so agile, responsive, reliable, and most of all just plain old FUN !
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412 orders
ppheli:
My guess is that your guess would be wrong... The 16 Saudi ships you mention were actually a split build, with Agusta making the last 8 of the 16. Most of Bell's 8 were delivered last year.
My guess is that your guess would be wrong... The 16 Saudi ships you mention were actually a split build, with Agusta making the last 8 of the 16. Most of Bell's 8 were delivered last year.
New Bell helicopter model?
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eurocopter2
I read an article in business and commercial aviation about 18 months ago that Bell were talking about this.
They had a photo or and artist impression i should say and it looked like a 206 sized 407.
The picture showed a 4 bladed composite main rotor system, an open cabin layout similair to the EC range, doing away with the centre pillar.
It looked like a very nice helicopter in concept. They called it the JRX Program.
There was some talk that bell had dropped the idea, but i dont know. Im sure if they ever went down that track with this new concept it would surely be a great little ship.
This is all i know be it true or not.
cheers!
I read an article in business and commercial aviation about 18 months ago that Bell were talking about this.
They had a photo or and artist impression i should say and it looked like a 206 sized 407.
The picture showed a 4 bladed composite main rotor system, an open cabin layout similair to the EC range, doing away with the centre pillar.
It looked like a very nice helicopter in concept. They called it the JRX Program.
There was some talk that bell had dropped the idea, but i dont know. Im sure if they ever went down that track with this new concept it would surely be a great little ship.
This is all i know be it true or not.
cheers!
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This is all "old news" from 2002, but here is a picture and a press release from HAI 2002...
.....Bell is cautiously floating a new growth edition of its venerable JetRanger. Borrowing a term from the automotive industry, Bell is calling the so-called JRX a “concept” copter and releasing little information on it, other than an artist’s conception. Basically a beefier JetRanger with wider cabin, lavish cockpit, cabin glazing and presumably an extra passenger seat or two, the JRX will be the subject of extensive talks with possible users for the next year or so, with a possible production decision pondered by either year’s end or next year’s Heli-Expo.
....Details, also, of a new wider, bigger, four-bladed JetRanger derivative, known so far as the “JRX,” are also expected. Should the program be greenlighted, it would be the first new civil helo program from a major manufacturer since Bell and program partner Agusta revealed plans to develop its AgustaBell AB 139 medium twin three years ago. (The AB 139 program, by the way, is doing well, headed toward year-end certification and present here in both VIP and utility mockup form.)
Preliminary reports and artist’s conceptions portray the JRX to be a bubble-faced stretched JetRanger, an airframe expanded in much the same way as Eurocopter’s EC130, introduced with a maximum of fanfare at last year’s Heli-Expo show in Anaheim. Target market for the EC130 was the air tour market; as to Bell’s target market, only the details from this morning’s press conference will tell.
.....Bell is cautiously floating a new growth edition of its venerable JetRanger. Borrowing a term from the automotive industry, Bell is calling the so-called JRX a “concept” copter and releasing little information on it, other than an artist’s conception. Basically a beefier JetRanger with wider cabin, lavish cockpit, cabin glazing and presumably an extra passenger seat or two, the JRX will be the subject of extensive talks with possible users for the next year or so, with a possible production decision pondered by either year’s end or next year’s Heli-Expo.
....Details, also, of a new wider, bigger, four-bladed JetRanger derivative, known so far as the “JRX,” are also expected. Should the program be greenlighted, it would be the first new civil helo program from a major manufacturer since Bell and program partner Agusta revealed plans to develop its AgustaBell AB 139 medium twin three years ago. (The AB 139 program, by the way, is doing well, headed toward year-end certification and present here in both VIP and utility mockup form.)
Preliminary reports and artist’s conceptions portray the JRX to be a bubble-faced stretched JetRanger, an airframe expanded in much the same way as Eurocopter’s EC130, introduced with a maximum of fanfare at last year’s Heli-Expo show in Anaheim. Target market for the EC130 was the air tour market; as to Bell’s target market, only the details from this morning’s press conference will tell.
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Mixed news on whether Bell is pursuing the modular helicopter or not.
Have to wait for a more formal announcement, but Helicopter World recently reported that it had been dropped as a program.
Have to wait for a more formal announcement, but Helicopter World recently reported that it had been dropped as a program.
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407 or 40Lemon??
I'm not bashing the Bell 407-just wanting some opinions.
Why is it that so many 407s have crashed?
Is it because there are so many of them out there?
Are there not just as many AS350s out there?
Is the tailrotor prolem really sorted out???
I do like the aircraft, but would not send my Family in it for a flight.
Then again-I will probably send my Mother-Inlaw
I know the 350s also have their problems(jackstall), but it is avoidable.
Any coments??
Why is it that so many 407s have crashed?
Is it because there are so many of them out there?
Are there not just as many AS350s out there?
Is the tailrotor prolem really sorted out???
I do like the aircraft, but would not send my Family in it for a flight.
Then again-I will probably send my Mother-Inlaw
I know the 350s also have their problems(jackstall), but it is avoidable.
Any coments??
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The facts are that 2 have crashed in the past 2 weeks, both from the same company in the same area. In the 6 months prior to this recent wave of accidents, the 407 fleet has actually done quite well, the last reported (NTSB) occurrence was back in May.Worldwide, There are about 600 - 407's flying to an estimated 2,500 to 3,000 - 350 series (just a wild guess?)
I can tell you of about a dozen 350 incidents in the same 6 month time frame. (check www.ntsb.gov for USA accident/Incident stats)
Jack stall is a concern, (and you are correct, it is somewhat aviodable), but there have been several unexplained HYDproblems, resulting in catastrauphic accidents (OMNR B2 crashing inverted, high time pilot, CAVU day) ...plus other unexplanied accidents, (BA into the Grand Canyon wall, 7 killed) a B3 rolled up on an airport Mesa AZ, several other
B3 failures, including another engine failure last week in AZ, and the 355 in England this week.
If you sit back and look at numbers of accidents/Incidents Vs fleet size and hours flown, I'd hazard a guess that they both have
similar and very unaccaptable numbers....after all 1 is too many !
I'd say that there is a big concern over 2 accidents and 1 fatality in 2 weeks, but don't be jumping in with both feet.....I'd be waiting for the NTSB to report, and believe me, they must be extremely busy on these 2 files.
I have about 1,500 on 407's now and about 2,200 on 350's, so feel quite comfortable comparing the types. IMHO, I certainly prefer flying the 407, for a variety of reasons, one being the structure of the cabin area.
Regardless, there is a family in mourning in the US, missing their father, husband, mate, so for that, I offer my sincere condolences.
I can tell you of about a dozen 350 incidents in the same 6 month time frame. (check www.ntsb.gov for USA accident/Incident stats)
Jack stall is a concern, (and you are correct, it is somewhat aviodable), but there have been several unexplained HYDproblems, resulting in catastrauphic accidents (OMNR B2 crashing inverted, high time pilot, CAVU day) ...plus other unexplanied accidents, (BA into the Grand Canyon wall, 7 killed) a B3 rolled up on an airport Mesa AZ, several other
B3 failures, including another engine failure last week in AZ, and the 355 in England this week.
If you sit back and look at numbers of accidents/Incidents Vs fleet size and hours flown, I'd hazard a guess that they both have
similar and very unaccaptable numbers....after all 1 is too many !
I'd say that there is a big concern over 2 accidents and 1 fatality in 2 weeks, but don't be jumping in with both feet.....I'd be waiting for the NTSB to report, and believe me, they must be extremely busy on these 2 files.
I have about 1,500 on 407's now and about 2,200 on 350's, so feel quite comfortable comparing the types. IMHO, I certainly prefer flying the 407, for a variety of reasons, one being the structure of the cabin area.
Regardless, there is a family in mourning in the US, missing their father, husband, mate, so for that, I offer my sincere condolences.
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We get most of the 407´s around here in for service eventually, and the joke is that 407 pilots should be issued ¨test pilot¨ badges. There has been a long list of problems since the aircraft came out, the TR issue is not completely fixed, its only been patched by a pedal travel solenoid, and then the FADEC does all sorts of strange things, and it rarely works the same in two aircraft. We recently had one destroyed due to a sudden engine failure w/6 on board, the failure ocurred at 9000 FT and it landed at 8000, nobody hurt which talks good about the crashworthiness, a 350 would have either burst in flames (as usual) or have severe cockpit intrusions.
When everything is OK the machine is unbelieveable, fast comfortable, and manuverable, but I still feel more comfortable in a 206L4.
When everything is OK the machine is unbelieveable, fast comfortable, and manuverable, but I still feel more comfortable in a 206L4.
407 Pilot said...
" one being the structure of the cabin area."
I have no 407 time but considerable 206, 206L, Lama and Astar experience. My experience makes me more confident in the Eurocopter design.
1. The Bell design has a much weaker floor. There are only the skids and a thin layer of honeycomb between you and the ground/stumps/stobs/rocks.
2. The transmision mounting of the Eurocopter design is much stronger. In almost every instance of a 206/407 wreck the transmission becomes displaced. The mast and transmission of the Eurocopter design becomes a roll bar that the Bell design does not duplicate. I have never heard of the transmission/mast becoming displaced in a survivable French wreck.
3. The Bell design has three fuel cells in the passenger compartment. They are, again, only protected by one layer of honey comb and their own integrity. They are ony isolated from the passenger compartment by another layer of honeycomb. Not to mention in the 206L/407 I'm sitting on one!
4. There is a structural, cantilever deck extending past my feet in the Eurocopter. The first structural member in the 206/407 series cabin is behind me at the broom closet. The fiberglass around me in the 206/407 offeres scant protection. My personal favorite in this area is the Hughes 500 but that is another story.
5. This is pure personal preference and off the subject of structural integrity but I will take a Turbomeca engine ANY day over an Allison.
Jim
" one being the structure of the cabin area."
I have no 407 time but considerable 206, 206L, Lama and Astar experience. My experience makes me more confident in the Eurocopter design.
1. The Bell design has a much weaker floor. There are only the skids and a thin layer of honeycomb between you and the ground/stumps/stobs/rocks.
2. The transmision mounting of the Eurocopter design is much stronger. In almost every instance of a 206/407 wreck the transmission becomes displaced. The mast and transmission of the Eurocopter design becomes a roll bar that the Bell design does not duplicate. I have never heard of the transmission/mast becoming displaced in a survivable French wreck.
3. The Bell design has three fuel cells in the passenger compartment. They are, again, only protected by one layer of honey comb and their own integrity. They are ony isolated from the passenger compartment by another layer of honeycomb. Not to mention in the 206L/407 I'm sitting on one!
4. There is a structural, cantilever deck extending past my feet in the Eurocopter. The first structural member in the 206/407 series cabin is behind me at the broom closet. The fiberglass around me in the 206/407 offeres scant protection. My personal favorite in this area is the Hughes 500 but that is another story.
5. This is pure personal preference and off the subject of structural integrity but I will take a Turbomeca engine ANY day over an Allison.
Jim
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Valid points Lama Bear, although I must offer a few differences of opinion.
The lower bathtub in a 206-206-407 is very strong, and does extend to the T/R pedals.
There is no fuel tank under you seat...assuming you are the pilot. There is fuel under the rear seat and midship seats. personally, I have not seen these rupture, but then I have rarely attended a light or intermediate Bell accident.
The 350 fuel tank is in a bomb proof location, but that's basically where the passengers sit in a Bell, a very well protected area. The Bell transmissions have been known to wander, but rarely impact the survivablity in that rear compartment, be it 206-206L-or 407.
You're assuming that the 350 accident does not roll over, you must admit that there is virtually no protection above you. The mast as a roll bar? in many cases the Star does not shatter nor shed all blades, so you have to contend with spinning shrapnel. (as with most types) I have seen that take place.
I have some interesting pics, but it may be of poor judgement to post them here, I could email you what I have (so unfortunately) seen.
Our company buys and rebuilds many of the worlds 407 wrecks, I have crawled around many of them, and find the cabin area to be quite well protected in most cases. (ie Delaware State Police, Louisiana State, Salta, Chile to name a few wrecks)
I have 11,000 flying Alison engines, and 2,200 flying Ariels, (the remainder is sweet old twin Pratts!) In my experiences, only Ariels have let me down, and big-time.
I fully agree with you on the 500, although I have no time on type.
This whole argument will never go away, It's all Ford Vs Chevvy, Apple Vs PC, Miller Vs Coors, etc,...
What ever your operating or what ever your preferences are, stay safe down there Lama. That's all that matters at the end of the day.
The lower bathtub in a 206-206-407 is very strong, and does extend to the T/R pedals.
There is no fuel tank under you seat...assuming you are the pilot. There is fuel under the rear seat and midship seats. personally, I have not seen these rupture, but then I have rarely attended a light or intermediate Bell accident.
The 350 fuel tank is in a bomb proof location, but that's basically where the passengers sit in a Bell, a very well protected area. The Bell transmissions have been known to wander, but rarely impact the survivablity in that rear compartment, be it 206-206L-or 407.
You're assuming that the 350 accident does not roll over, you must admit that there is virtually no protection above you. The mast as a roll bar? in many cases the Star does not shatter nor shed all blades, so you have to contend with spinning shrapnel. (as with most types) I have seen that take place.
I have some interesting pics, but it may be of poor judgement to post them here, I could email you what I have (so unfortunately) seen.
Our company buys and rebuilds many of the worlds 407 wrecks, I have crawled around many of them, and find the cabin area to be quite well protected in most cases. (ie Delaware State Police, Louisiana State, Salta, Chile to name a few wrecks)
I have 11,000 flying Alison engines, and 2,200 flying Ariels, (the remainder is sweet old twin Pratts!) In my experiences, only Ariels have let me down, and big-time.
I fully agree with you on the 500, although I have no time on type.
This whole argument will never go away, It's all Ford Vs Chevvy, Apple Vs PC, Miller Vs Coors, etc,...
What ever your operating or what ever your preferences are, stay safe down there Lama. That's all that matters at the end of the day.
Last edited by 407 Driver; 4th Dec 2003 at 12:29.
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BA into Grand Canyon wall
Hello,
with ref to A-Star BA into the Grand Canyon Wall (7 killed)...well, that's our beat, I'm just down the road. Suffice it to say, diplomatically in this forum, you A-Star drivers need NOT worry about some secret mechanical snafu on that bird. It had NIX to do with the machine I promise. Nada. That's all I'll say, except that I'm amazed it didn't happen much earlier...
Read the NTSB report "between the lines".
As regards crashworthiness of the A-Stars.... we had one hover taxi into wires (Guiness & the rubber bouncing ball), and it peeled wide open. I posted pics on the ALEA site. Roof lets go where it joins the windshield, and now you're pilot of a convertible. My 1st choice: don't crash. 2nd choice: H.500
3rd choice: Bell 206/OH58 27th choice: A-Star.
But they fly gorgeously.
Fly safe
with ref to A-Star BA into the Grand Canyon Wall (7 killed)...well, that's our beat, I'm just down the road. Suffice it to say, diplomatically in this forum, you A-Star drivers need NOT worry about some secret mechanical snafu on that bird. It had NIX to do with the machine I promise. Nada. That's all I'll say, except that I'm amazed it didn't happen much earlier...
Read the NTSB report "between the lines".
As regards crashworthiness of the A-Stars.... we had one hover taxi into wires (Guiness & the rubber bouncing ball), and it peeled wide open. I posted pics on the ALEA site. Roof lets go where it joins the windshield, and now you're pilot of a convertible. My 1st choice: don't crash. 2nd choice: H.500
3rd choice: Bell 206/OH58 27th choice: A-Star.
But they fly gorgeously.
Fly safe