Bell 407
 

Seems that I will get the oppotunity to do a B407 endorsment in the next few weeks.

Aany comments, notes or nasties i need to know about before I start.

Cheers IHD

How is your tail rotor malfunction currency....


http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/A...if/redstar.gif

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Thermal runaway.

Don't get wrapped up in that hysteria. There is no evidence right now to suggest the accident in the gulf had anything to do with the previous tail rotor issues on the 407. Bell has flown over 400 flights on instrumented aircraft with the new tail rotor configuration, hitting points up to and including 0.1 second full left pedal inputs at Vne. The data was given to FAA and TC and the configuration approved.

As I said in the other forum, this reminds me of the hysteria surrounding the 76 throwing blades and turbine wheels, the 'Falling Star', the Hu500 lead lag link failures, the AS350 spherical brg failures, the R22 tossing main rotor systems.....etc etc. These problems come up on aircraft, and the certification system takes care of them. Unfortunately, sometimes it hurts. A lot. But hysteria and rumour mongering does not serve anyone.

Now, if you do start to fly the 407, and want some constructive advice.....it's a very simple helicopter with oodles of power. My best piece of advice would be to not panic about the FADEC failure procedures. Many pilots who fly 47s, or 212/205s in manual seem to get overwhelmed by the 407 in manual. Why? I don't know, but it happens. Don't think of it as a 'failure', all that's happening is the helicopter is telling you it doesn't have enough information to control the fuel flow anymore, and it hands the throttle to you. Period.

And make sure your Ng is at 0 before turning off the battery.

Good luck!

This entry is remarkably similar(almost word for word) to the one Lu Zuckerman drafted in the "justhelicopters" forum!!!?

However...whoever you profess to be (and you should know better Lu), please keep sight of the fact that this is an unadulterated forum where people (short of offensive and libelous language) can air their views freely. One doesn't want an authorotative figure wandering around the forums whipping people into line. Hysteria it is most certainly not, ramblings, maybe. I suspect the hysteria may lie in your camp?

Chill out, go have a cup of tea....relax


http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/A...if/redstar.gif

P.S. They have just found the tail section of a helicopter in shallow water local to the crash scene of the 407 that went down. I wonder if it is similar to a 407 tail section?

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Thermal runaway.

same hysteria as with the 76 throwing blades and turbines...?

I think in respect to the memory of those innocent people involved in 'blade throwing' 76 you might like to rephrase that remark.

PS. In fairness to Lu, I think you'll find that he was merely quoting the previous thread from Crash test Dummy, then responding to it.

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Another day in paradise

[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2001).]

212man. You're right, the language may have been a little flippant. Certainly meant no disrespect to those who've lost their lives or loved ones in 76s or anything else for that matter. I've lost enough friends to this industry to have had that circuit breaker reset years ago. The point was to illustrate that all aircraft experience problems which inevitable either get fixed, or the aircraft fails of its own merits. If any offense was taken, I apologize. By the way, were you in Somalia in 94?

Thomas Coupling, you seem to think it's all a bit of a lark. While preaching the merits of an open forum, without offensive or libelous language, you're quick to make stupid assumptions on an accident which killed someone. Is that not offensive? Believe me, there's no hysteria on this end, but I will try to provide accurate information when it's asked for. Maybe you should try the macrame sites.

[This message has been edited by CTD (edited 10 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by CTD (edited 10 January 2001).]

I have 2 years on a 407 and it's the greatest Aircraft that I've ever flown. It may be a perfect little Intermediate, but those darn tailbooms keep falling off?
It's very responsive in flight, crisp accurate control, Longlining is a snap, it just makes you look good.
It has auto-start. After 24 years of holding starters and winding throttles, that took me some getting used to!
The FADEC is extremely accurate with the Nr control, it never droops, hardly overspeeds, but in Manual throttle it's a bit of a bear, way more touchy than a 212. The onboard computer records every parameter, so pilot abuse is not possible without the wrench knowing exactly what you "pulled".
The best thing about the aircraft (other than the (EX) 140Kt speed is the climb rate, it climbs out like a Home-sick Angel. Initial rate of climb at gross is way up towards 2,000 FPM. It's been described as a mini-214 by some(who have 214 time)

Some problems, other than the new 110 Kt VNE (effective today) are:
-A very short distance from Butt to Pedals ..if you're over 5'8" it's going to be uncomfortable to fly for extended periods.
-A very high collective setting in cruise, to the point of having your elbow touch the back wall, uncomfortable at first.
Any more questions, comments email me at: [email protected] Fly Safe!

CTD, Good point..

"And make sure your Ng is at 0 before turning off the battery"

You know the Piston Parking excersize I take it, I found that one out too.

Would you guys agree the Bell 407 is the loudest helicopter in its class.....by far ?

While other manufacurers have produced quiet helicopters , Bell makes em louder.

I totally agree that they are the loudest new helo about. Louder than any BK & when you are at a pad with EC120's & 135's in & out, the 407 is actually obnoxiously loud. Bell, me thinks you paniced to quickly upon learning of the B3 development. Back to the design board for you cause these tree huggers & greenies are not going to go away.

The 407 is a wonderful machine to fly, and certainly a step up from previous generation helicopters. Of course, the comparisons to the 350 are as common as Ford and Chevy.

It will outperform a B2/B3 in some categories, and lags behind it in others. I haven't flown it at altitude, but friends who've worked them in the Himalayas and Rockies say they perform very well. At sea level, on low gear with a hook it scoots along at an honest 140kts. at 85%Q. You can use a 200 or 250 gallon Bambi and blast away at fires, or sling six drums of fuel to your fuel cache. In utility config, you can go full pax full fuel. It has a crisp, firm response and excellent tail rotor authority.

Overhaul costs are less than its competition, and will get better when the target lives are reached, and product support is the best in the business.

On the down side, it's not as comfortable as the A-Star, and doesn't have as much baggage space. The debate over "open cabin vs control tunnel" is split 50 /50. Some people like the open cabin concept for the visibility it offers. Others, like some corporate, law enforcement, or those who carry frieght internally prefer the cockpit be separate. Whatever. What that box beam cabin does offer is a high degree of structural strength. I always felt exposed in the A-Star, and found it akin to sitting on lawn furniture. Not much protection around you.

What it boils down to is this......it is a great performing aircraft, as are all the newer generation helicopters. It has gone through some growing pains, as did its competition (remember?), but like the A-Star, will rise above that and find its place as a great helicopter.

There is a lot of speculation on the latest accident, however it did not fit the profile of the previous three. With the new configuration in the back, left pedal full pitch is limited to 17-19º with the pedal stop engaged. This will not allow blade - boom contact in cruise (far from it), as proven to the FAA and TC in flight test. The investigation continues so comment on the accident is not prudent.

Only been in one twice, what a marvelous machine! (If sex had skids, it would be a Bell ... :))

I can't make comparisons, however for the unexplained tail strikes lately, see my other poist, to which I've included the AD.

M407 Pedals
 

During the recent discussions about the 407, here and on other forums, there have been comments made on the tail rotor pedal position being uncomfortable. Anyone have any comments on this, or how it could be improved?

I flew our 407 for 5 hours on Saturday, and had a leg cramp for 24 hours afterwards. We need more length in the pedal adjustment, (I'm only 5"8" tall) The good thing...it would have taken a LOT more hours in any other intermediate to complete the work. Fantastic aircraft...even at 110K.

I agree and "second" everything that CTD mentioned.
I'm operating one of the higher altitude 407's in Canada, and it offers spectacular performance.
--I have "Placed" a measured 2,000 Lb load at 7,800 ft (+5c),
--I routinely fly snow-guns at a local ski area (1,800 Lb @ 8,500', -5c)
--I have picked up 5 + gear (winter) at 11,500'with 1.5 hrs fuel, no problem.

I could go on...

Astar vs 407...(Ford vs Chevvy?) I have a lot of time in 350's and don't miss them at all. If some guys like them, Great, then I don't have to fly one.

If you have any questions, send them to [email protected], I'd be glad to talk more about my 407 experiences.

LA City Police flew 3 407s for 3 years until replacing them with AS-350B2s. My understanding was they didnt like the tight cockpit with mission equipment installed.They had the typical early problems
and were really sick of all the ADs.
No complaints about power as ive seem them lift off with 6 fat cops and a full bag of fuel on a 95degree day.This included the weight of the nightsun , Flir and police radio package.
They also liked the 140kt speed until it was restricted.
The AS-350B2s more comfortable cockpit and 10 years previous experience with AS-350B1s made LAPDs replacement choice easy.
And of course Eurocopter was thrilled selling them 8 new helicopters.

I don't believe this problem exists on military aircraft because they are designed to be operated by the 5th to the 95th percentile individual.

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The Cat

Lu,

Surely a 5'4" woman fits in between the 5th & 95th percentile. Same for a 5'8" Man?

Edited because eye carnt spel

[This message has been edited by Ewan Whosearmy (edited 31 January 2001).]

Dear Ewan

The Bell 206 although it served as the OH 58 in the military was not built to military specifications and therefore did not comply with Mil-Std-1472 Human engineering design criteria for military systems, equipment and facilities.

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The Cat

In my opinion the jokers who design most helicopter cockpits made damn sure they never had to fly in them.

The older 206 models are particularly vile for anyone over 6ft.(I hadn't realised the more compact amongst us, Whirlygirl, also had a problem) There is NEVER enough pedal adjustment despite the fact that it would cost peanuts to provide more screwthread and detachable "turn-around" pedals. An idea for one of the accessory manufacturers perhaps?