Something mysterious in Snowdonia
Thread Starter
Something mysterious in Snowdonia
There were lots of chaps (and I presume chapesses) having a great time in Robinsons various in Snowdonia today. We got airborne from Valley to a walker with a broken ankle/leg at the back of Snowdon and made a blind call on 121.5 to alert them to our presence. As a precaution we asked the ARCC to establish a TDA around the area and this was broadcast on 121.5 also. After we had landed back at Valley we talked to someone from the mountain flying party who asked what mysterious thing was happening at Snowdon. He also said that probably only one of the instructors was sharp enough to listen out on 121.5 - one out of 5 or 6!
A Temporary Danger Area is an airspace control measure used to protect situations from unwanted aerial activity and they are almost always established for overland SAROPs.
None of the helis in the area were any problem and I hope they enjoyed their flying (and probably a few beers afterwards), but I was surprised at the lack of understanding of TDAs and lack of monitoring of an emergency frequency. Please tell me this is not normal amongst GA pilots.
A Temporary Danger Area is an airspace control measure used to protect situations from unwanted aerial activity and they are almost always established for overland SAROPs.
None of the helis in the area were any problem and I hope they enjoyed their flying (and probably a few beers afterwards), but I was surprised at the lack of understanding of TDAs and lack of monitoring of an emergency frequency. Please tell me this is not normal amongst GA pilots.
Crab,
Civilian aircraft usually do not have the ability to monitor Guard (121.5/243.0) frequencies as do military aircraft. It is not a normal practice to do so anywhere in the world that I know of. It would be a good practice but probably impractical for Robinsons which usually will have just the one radio. There are other frequencies that require monitoring for normal operations.
If a TDA is put into effect and one is out of touch for good reason....how would you know of it....and thus be able to comply with the restrictions.
We have a similar problem here in the States regarding TFR's...which can be called for any number of reasons. If you are out in the 'bush", it gets awfully hard to keep track of these things even if you have all the best of intentions.
Or....am I off base here?
Civilian aircraft usually do not have the ability to monitor Guard (121.5/243.0) frequencies as do military aircraft. It is not a normal practice to do so anywhere in the world that I know of. It would be a good practice but probably impractical for Robinsons which usually will have just the one radio. There are other frequencies that require monitoring for normal operations.
If a TDA is put into effect and one is out of touch for good reason....how would you know of it....and thus be able to comply with the restrictions.
We have a similar problem here in the States regarding TFR's...which can be called for any number of reasons. If you are out in the 'bush", it gets awfully hard to keep track of these things even if you have all the best of intentions.
Or....am I off base here?
Not current on UK Airspace regs, particularly those pertaining to what the Mil used to call the Snowdonia MFTA, but if it's class G or H airspace then not only do they not need to monitor 121.5, they probably don't even need to have a radio at all. Standard VFR see-and-avoid.
Fully open to correction if this airspace is classified differently of course.
Fully open to correction if this airspace is classified differently of course.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Port Townsend,WA. USA
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the United States there is no requirement to monitor any particular frequency while in uncontrolled airspace. Most pilots monitor the local airport channel. For remote areas maybe 122.9 might get somebody.
Canada has (or had) a neat system where everybody monitored and chatted on 126.7, I think , so inflight help was easy. Been about 30 years or so since I crossed into Canada and with the hassles involved since 911 I doubt I will go again soon. But the common channel for calling anybody nearby seem like a good idea to me.
Canada has (or had) a neat system where everybody monitored and chatted on 126.7, I think , so inflight help was easy. Been about 30 years or so since I crossed into Canada and with the hassles involved since 911 I doubt I will go again soon. But the common channel for calling anybody nearby seem like a good idea to me.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly for a helicopter logging company, obviously we don't use R22s 
but we always monitor 121.5, granted that we are equiped with duplicate radios. However, when i was a flight instructor i always installed in my clients to always monitor that freq. when on long segments of CC flights, when not near a CTAF or tower.
Something to think about
Cody
but we always monitor 121.5, granted that we are equiped with duplicate radios. However, when i was a flight instructor i always installed in my clients to always monitor that freq. when on long segments of CC flights, when not near a CTAF or tower. Something to think about
Cody
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In my tank engine
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There isn't a requirement to monitor 121.5 in the UK the only country I know who advise it is France.
I know who the company are who was operating there and I would have thought they were using a company frequency (This would make sense in regard to safety, Lots of helicopter close together on a mountain flying course)
This said it also makes sense if you see a military helicopter in close proximity in this type of situation to listen out on 121.5
I know who the company are who was operating there and I would have thought they were using a company frequency (This would make sense in regard to safety, Lots of helicopter close together on a mountain flying course)
This said it also makes sense if you see a military helicopter in close proximity in this type of situation to listen out on 121.5
Crab, does the ARCC tell London/Scottish Information that a TDA has been set up(not Notamed), as most people would possibly be using that service,.? And don`t I recall there is a `remote site` frequency--122.95? that people should use? Syc..
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
crab: when setting up a TRA / TDA I normally inform the local ATC unit who maybe giving a flight information service to GA in the area, and follow it up with the paperwork later. But in class G airspace not everyone will be in receipt of such a service (due to a number of reasons), so do not expect everyone to get the message.
I fly for the police in the southern UK and it is not unusual for GA to join me (while orbiting an incident) to see what I'm looking at
I fly for the police in the southern UK and it is not unusual for GA to join me (while orbiting an incident) to see what I'm looking at
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Far Far Away
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab
Just for your info, there will be another mountain flying course (from a different flying school) operating in that area from Saturday 2nd July to Monday 4th July. There will be R22s, Jetrangers, Gazelles, H500s and Scouts as far as I know.
I'll see if I can get them to monitor 121.5
Just for your info, there will be another mountain flying course (from a different flying school) operating in that area from Saturday 2nd July to Monday 4th July. There will be R22s, Jetrangers, Gazelles, H500s and Scouts as far as I know.
I'll see if I can get them to monitor 121.5
Thread Starter
I am a little surprised that any VHF radio installed in an aircraft nowadays does not allow the user to use one frequency whilst monitoring 121.5 - maybe I am just used to mil spec radios. Just for the sake of self preservation I would want to be able to receive important safety messages even if I am just bimbling around in class G airspace.
The guys on their heli detachment were using a company frequency known only to them but to their credit they had phoned Valley ops to notify them of the activity. Unfortunately for us, Valley ops shut up shop for the weekend and the info wasn't passed to us regarding the Saturday flying (an internal ****up that will be addressed). A notam or CANP would have been much better and then the whole world would have known they were there.
Since they were using a company frequency, they would not, unless they had a second radio, have been able to monitor any ATC - whether it be Canaerfon Radio (the closest and their refuel point) or London info; they would not know what was happening around them if they couldn't monitor guard.
Now, to put this in perspective, I am not at all worried about R22s around a SAROP in Snowdonia - we can all lookout and avoid each other but what about a major incident, whether it be terrorist or natural disaster? Any GA pilot could just drift into a very sensitive and potentially hazardous situation just because he didn't have the ability or desire to monitor an emergency frequency - it just doesn't seem good practise or airmanship to me.
The guys on their heli detachment were using a company frequency known only to them but to their credit they had phoned Valley ops to notify them of the activity. Unfortunately for us, Valley ops shut up shop for the weekend and the info wasn't passed to us regarding the Saturday flying (an internal ****up that will be addressed). A notam or CANP would have been much better and then the whole world would have known they were there.
Since they were using a company frequency, they would not, unless they had a second radio, have been able to monitor any ATC - whether it be Canaerfon Radio (the closest and their refuel point) or London info; they would not know what was happening around them if they couldn't monitor guard.
Now, to put this in perspective, I am not at all worried about R22s around a SAROP in Snowdonia - we can all lookout and avoid each other but what about a major incident, whether it be terrorist or natural disaster? Any GA pilot could just drift into a very sensitive and potentially hazardous situation just because he didn't have the ability or desire to monitor an emergency frequency - it just doesn't seem good practise or airmanship to me.
Crab,
I'm surprised, that you are surprised! I can't think of a standard civvie VHF radio that is set up to monitor guard, nor anyone who does so as a matter of routine. The airlines tend to keep their third VHF on 121.5, but it gets misused as a result; almost like "Crab Common" Most commercial GA helicopters would have 2 VHF's, but the second is more likely to be on a company frequency than on 121.5.
With Australia slowly dragging itself into the late 20th Century for airspace management, we're finding the issue of communication more of a problem. Last year some bright spark in Airservices Australia actually removed all the frequencies from VFR charts, because he/she/it decided that non IFR aircraft didn't need to know area frequencies as it would then clutter up the airwaves
I'm surprised, that you are surprised! I can't think of a standard civvie VHF radio that is set up to monitor guard, nor anyone who does so as a matter of routine. The airlines tend to keep their third VHF on 121.5, but it gets misused as a result; almost like "Crab Common"
Most commercial GA helicopters would have 2 VHF's, but the second is more likely to be on a company frequency than on 121.5.With Australia slowly dragging itself into the late 20th Century for airspace management, we're finding the issue of communication more of a problem. Last year some bright spark in Airservices Australia actually removed all the frequencies from VFR charts, because he/she/it decided that non IFR aircraft didn't need to know area frequencies as it would then clutter up the airwaves
Likewise, I've not flown any light civvie aircraft in the UK with a radio that allows guard (or any other frequency) to be monitored in parallel with the working frequency. It is not uncommon practice for aircraft with two radios to monitor guard on the second (I certainly do on long hops), but by no means a published one.
In the area you mention there are other issues as well of-course. Firstly anybody operating below the peaks in a light fixed or rotary is likely to have at-best intermittent contact with any LARS provider. Secondly you can expect a lot of non-radio traffic: mainly paragliders, but potentially also hang-gliders, PPG and microlights - none of which are required to carry a radio, and in the first three categories the pilots were never required to pass either an airlaw or radio exam either.
So, I'd guess that the effect of a TDA, promulgated by radio, in Snowdonia, is probably what you saw - some subsequent gossip but very little effect on the actual traffic.
G
In the area you mention there are other issues as well of-course. Firstly anybody operating below the peaks in a light fixed or rotary is likely to have at-best intermittent contact with any LARS provider. Secondly you can expect a lot of non-radio traffic: mainly paragliders, but potentially also hang-gliders, PPG and microlights - none of which are required to carry a radio, and in the first three categories the pilots were never required to pass either an airlaw or radio exam either.
So, I'd guess that the effect of a TDA, promulgated by radio, in Snowdonia, is probably what you saw - some subsequent gossip but very little effect on the actual traffic.
G
Crab: two things if I may:
I am your friendly neighbourhood police chopper. Down the road at Caernarfon is the north wales air ambulance. Between us we probably do around a 100 HEMS jobs into/out of the mountains, especially this time of year. We do training with all the MRT's we evn on the odd occasion do joint ops with yourselves in the hills! Other than the odd serious incident (plane crash, major rescue), we have never had the need for initiating a TDA????
Why did you initiate one for a broken ankle
All those pilots enjoying a day out around the most beautiful parts of the UK and you tell them to bugger off?
Massive overkill if you ask me.
Secondly - we don't even monitor 121x5!! Especially in the hills - no signal!! No-one else on it except london information above 3000' AMSL.
We always listen out on Caernarfon because of all the puddle jumpers with great success (all those wazzing the cafe at Snowdon are on Caernarfon freq.)
And we always listen out on Valley radar, for my best mates the fast jets (not).
We've got our own for you if we want to talk direct.
Civvies certainly don't listen out on 121x5 in them thar hills, I can guarantee that!
Sabre Zero 1 (fancy call sign!). Have you notam'd your movements for next week?
We would certainly expect to hear about your activities one way or another. Are you basing yourselves somewhere?
Give the police a call and they'll give you our landline number - give us a call? We have an op in the hills on the 2nd.
Don't bother with 121x5, listen out on valley frequency constantly.
I am your friendly neighbourhood police chopper. Down the road at Caernarfon is the north wales air ambulance. Between us we probably do around a 100 HEMS jobs into/out of the mountains, especially this time of year. We do training with all the MRT's we evn on the odd occasion do joint ops with yourselves in the hills! Other than the odd serious incident (plane crash, major rescue), we have never had the need for initiating a TDA????
Why did you initiate one for a broken ankle
All those pilots enjoying a day out around the most beautiful parts of the UK and you tell them to bugger off?
Massive overkill if you ask me.
Secondly - we don't even monitor 121x5!! Especially in the hills - no signal!! No-one else on it except london information above 3000' AMSL.
We always listen out on Caernarfon because of all the puddle jumpers with great success (all those wazzing the cafe at Snowdon are on Caernarfon freq.)
And we always listen out on Valley radar, for my best mates the fast jets (not).
We've got our own for you if we want to talk direct.
Civvies certainly don't listen out on 121x5 in them thar hills, I can guarantee that!
Sabre Zero 1 (fancy call sign!). Have you notam'd your movements for next week?
We would certainly expect to hear about your activities one way or another. Are you basing yourselves somewhere?
Give the police a call and they'll give you our landline number - give us a call? We have an op in the hills on the 2nd.
Don't bother with 121x5, listen out on valley frequency constantly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Excuse my ignorance here with CAA requirements for Public Transport helicopters, but I would assume that dual VHFs would have been one of them, so there shouldn't be a problem monitoring the emergency frequency.
When we were training we were taught that it was a good idea to monitor 121.5, as it is the frequency over which ELTs broadcast, especially when flying cross country and over hostile terrain.
Even when flying tours I have 121.5 selected on back up.
Another good reason to do so is that if your machine is fitted with an ELT, on shut down tune in to see if the G switch hasn't been inadvertantly activated - it will save valuable SAR resources from being wasted and you a red face when they show up at your hangar.
When we were training we were taught that it was a good idea to monitor 121.5, as it is the frequency over which ELTs broadcast, especially when flying cross country and over hostile terrain.
Even when flying tours I have 121.5 selected on back up.
Another good reason to do so is that if your machine is fitted with an ELT, on shut down tune in to see if the G switch hasn't been inadvertantly activated - it will save valuable SAR resources from being wasted and you a red face when they show up at your hangar.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems to me that the TDA system as it stands does not work for short term SAROPS. How effective is VHF/UHF for warning of TDAs is of no use, especially for low level traffic in remote, hilly terrain? Robinsons are one thing, fast jets are quite another - I would be very surprised if there hasn't been a case of a military jets innocently busting TDAs.
Interested in the selection of 121.5, particularly as low level coverage is poor to the North and West of Manchester (according to the AIP). If I was aware of a Sea King on SAROPS in the vicinity, I would have chosen 123.1 to listen to on my solitary radio rather than 121.5. Obviously the scene of search frequency is no longer used.
Sandy,
Very few R22s are public transport - I have never seen an R22 with two radios. The R44s that I have flown which were public transport only had one radio. I think (and I am open to be corrected on this one) it is flight conditions ie IFR/VFR and airspace that dictates how many radios are carried.
Interested in the selection of 121.5, particularly as low level coverage is poor to the North and West of Manchester (according to the AIP). If I was aware of a Sea King on SAROPS in the vicinity, I would have chosen 123.1 to listen to on my solitary radio rather than 121.5. Obviously the scene of search frequency is no longer used.
Sandy,
Very few R22s are public transport - I have never seen an R22 with two radios. The R44s that I have flown which were public transport only had one radio. I think (and I am open to be corrected on this one) it is flight conditions ie IFR/VFR and airspace that dictates how many radios are carried.
Crab,
Why don't you get your outfit to provide you an opportunity to fly with the Police, EMS, and civilian operators out there in the real world....and see how things work outside your own small closed world. It might prove enlightening. Lots of other people fly helicopters and do so in a professional manner....and most of them are not SAR pilots. Maybe your outfit would benefit from that exchange....thinking outside that proverbial box works you know.
What provoked you to request a TDA for that flight....was it seeing the Robbies in the vicinity of your flight? Was the TDA Notam'ed....if so it would have been after the end of your flight and surely not during the flight itself one would think?
Why don't you get your outfit to provide you an opportunity to fly with the Police, EMS, and civilian operators out there in the real world....and see how things work outside your own small closed world. It might prove enlightening. Lots of other people fly helicopters and do so in a professional manner....and most of them are not SAR pilots. Maybe your outfit would benefit from that exchange....thinking outside that proverbial box works you know.
What provoked you to request a TDA for that flight....was it seeing the Robbies in the vicinity of your flight? Was the TDA Notam'ed....if so it would have been after the end of your flight and surely not during the flight itself one would think?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can only agree with most of the previous comments. 121.5 would be low on my list of priorities. If Valley was operational, that would be my first choice - otherwise I would go with Caernarfon, as the nearest operational ATC service. Even then, if I had only 1 comm box, these would get dropped for some company frequency for some of the time.
The reason that it would be low priority is that I woud not expect any transmissions I made on it to be received by a ground station, due to the terrain. I would expect to get more useful information about other traffic either from Valley (or even from Caernarfon).
In the hills, you would not expect reliable comms on any VHF frequency anyway, so see and avoid would be the watchword.
The reason that it would be low priority is that I woud not expect any transmissions I made on it to be received by a ground station, due to the terrain. I would expect to get more useful information about other traffic either from Valley (or even from Caernarfon).
In the hills, you would not expect reliable comms on any VHF frequency anyway, so see and avoid would be the watchword.
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Within the UK what would be the legal status of a TDA declared in this manner if it were not promulgated to the users of the airspace in which it was located in a manner where they could use it in their flight planning?