Something mysterious in Snowdonia
How could one be in violation of something you would have no way of knowing about due to the fact the government was not able to ensure all aircraft and pilots were able to access such notifications as were made and the government was unable to make contact with all air traffic then in-flight in the area?
If, as I understand it to be from earlier posts, there was no requirement of an aircraft to monitor any radio frequency for the area, then how could the government know all airborne traffic had been alerted? A collateral issue would be....how long is it from the time a pilot requests the issuance of a TDA does the appropriate authority actually act upon the request and then begin the notification process?
If a request for the creation of a TDA is sent....who is the proper authority to issue the TDA? Can a TDA be issued by a pilot on-scene or must it be a decision made by someone higher in the food chain rather than the on-scene pilot?
If, as I understand it to be from earlier posts, there was no requirement of an aircraft to monitor any radio frequency for the area, then how could the government know all airborne traffic had been alerted? A collateral issue would be....how long is it from the time a pilot requests the issuance of a TDA does the appropriate authority actually act upon the request and then begin the notification process?
If a request for the creation of a TDA is sent....who is the proper authority to issue the TDA? Can a TDA be issued by a pilot on-scene or must it be a decision made by someone higher in the food chain rather than the on-scene pilot?
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We are on the fax list for when TDA/TRAs are set up. (I'm amazed this service isn't available by email.)
The most active areas for these suddenly appearing are northern England and Scotland.
It is not unusual to have 3 of these promulgated in a day. This fact alone made me inquisitive.....and as the notification contains no details of what the "emergency" is I've been investigating a few.
Most of them relate to SAR ops - and I'm not at all certain that a TDA set up in this fashion will achieve the aims of the unit making the request.
As for Wales this weekend, the party flying was led by a band of very experienced instructors who were all aware of the TDA. And the SAR unit were aware of the mountain flying because the instructors made contact as part of their planning.
So stop stirring up a non-existent problem! If you weren't aware of the mountain flyers, how come you flew low over their hotel landing site ???!!!!!!
The most active areas for these suddenly appearing are northern England and Scotland.
It is not unusual to have 3 of these promulgated in a day. This fact alone made me inquisitive.....and as the notification contains no details of what the "emergency" is I've been investigating a few.
Most of them relate to SAR ops - and I'm not at all certain that a TDA set up in this fashion will achieve the aims of the unit making the request.
As for Wales this weekend, the party flying was led by a band of very experienced instructors who were all aware of the TDA. And the SAR unit were aware of the mountain flying because the instructors made contact as part of their planning.
So stop stirring up a non-existent problem! If you weren't aware of the mountain flyers, how come you flew low over their hotel landing site ???!!!!!!
Avoid imitations
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Crab, perhaps you are thinking of the "T/R+G" setting on your UHF/VHF box?
I concur with the other contributers in that as far as I know, this facility doesn't exist in the civvie world. Aircraft have either one VHF or two similar boxes, depending on their role / capability.
I think what you have highlighted is that the TDA is inadequate for an immediate and short term operation in Class G airspace. Even though we listen to 121.5 there is a good chance that we would miss a one-off broadcast because sod's law says we would be listening to another frequency at the time. (We normally DO revert to 121.5 for a "listen out" in transit on the "spare" box but only if we aren't already using it to talk to a minor airfield or listen to an ATIS etc, as we often need to do).
I concur with the other contributers in that as far as I know, this facility doesn't exist in the civvie world. Aircraft have either one VHF or two similar boxes, depending on their role / capability.
I think what you have highlighted is that the TDA is inadequate for an immediate and short term operation in Class G airspace. Even though we listen to 121.5 there is a good chance that we would miss a one-off broadcast because sod's law says we would be listening to another frequency at the time. (We normally DO revert to 121.5 for a "listen out" in transit on the "spare" box but only if we aren't already using it to talk to a minor airfield or listen to an ATIS etc, as we often need to do).
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Crab being an expert in all things aviation should know that the real point of the TDA for SAROps is to protect the SAR cab from the fast, pointy boys. If Crab thinks that a bunch of R22s are a threat to another helo then the four person Sea King crew needs to sharpen up their airmanship. As SASless quite rightly points out the ability to monitor guard on a V/UHF set is purely a military capability and I would have thought that a second box on the local LARS service (if available) would be more appropriate. Quite surprisingly, although the venerable old Sea King can monitor 121.5, it (mk3) does not have a second box and is therefore somewhat less capable than most commercial civilian helos despite it quite regularly flying in Class A airspace!?
As another person has already stated, this is Class G airspace and therefore open to one and all. If I was a SAR operator I would be more worried about the student flying his hawk than a mountain flyng course. The ambulance and police manage without this protection and are far more vulnerable than a big old Sea Queen and probably do more jobs than Valley do anyway.
The last time I issued a CANP, it was infringed by a military helo!
As another person has already stated, this is Class G airspace and therefore open to one and all. If I was a SAR operator I would be more worried about the student flying his hawk than a mountain flyng course. The ambulance and police manage without this protection and are far more vulnerable than a big old Sea Queen and probably do more jobs than Valley do anyway.
The last time I issued a CANP, it was infringed by a military helo!
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(With a very strong Mancunian accent - that's Manchester, UK to the rest of you.)
"You see the problem is, is that the problem, you see, is that MY problem is MUCH more important, I say is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than your problem - DO YOU SEE!"
"You see the problem is, is that the problem, you see, is that MY problem is MUCH more important, I say is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than your problem - DO YOU SEE!"
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Its ok preaching about the values of monitoring guard when you have mil spec radios that do it automatically. Even with our twin VHF fit, we are often flicking between boxes (fnarr fnarr!) to keep up with ATC. As mentioned earlier, you dont actually need ANY radio to fly in open FIR. When I can, I do, but that is a rare occurence. I would depend on a local ATC unit or London Information to pass the message.
There are no limits
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Crab,
Why do you establish a TDA for your SAROPS? Looking at my copy of DAP/AUS/202/Legal dated 24 March 2005, I see no mention of this.
I would suggest that TDAs are established for disasters to keep out snoopers and the press.
PM me if you would like to come and see what we do in the real world.
Why do you establish a TDA for your SAROPS? Looking at my copy of DAP/AUS/202/Legal dated 24 March 2005, I see no mention of this.
I would suggest that TDAs are established for disasters to keep out snoopers and the press.
PM me if you would like to come and see what we do in the real world.
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121.5
Hi,
I thought that my set automatically switched to 121.5. I based this on the listening out of a full may-day conversation between an air-france airbus that helped out getting a Piper that lost a window due to bird strike to land safely in the nearest location Abbeville, (a great job btw of the crew).
Or was I listening to a relaying , nowadays it is sometimes hard to know the difference (when listening out)
So my question, the standard King in R44, does it automitacally has a listening watch on 121.5 ?
Delta3
I thought that my set automatically switched to 121.5. I based this on the listening out of a full may-day conversation between an air-france airbus that helped out getting a Piper that lost a window due to bird strike to land safely in the nearest location Abbeville, (a great job btw of the crew).
Or was I listening to a relaying , nowadays it is sometimes hard to know the difference (when listening out)
So my question, the standard King in R44, does it automitacally has a listening watch on 121.5 ?
Delta3
Crab must be off shift.....as evidenced by his absence here of late. Hopefully, when he comes back to work and can find time to set down the tea cup he will respond to some of the questions and invites offered in response to his original post that set off this thread. I know several of us are very interested in how he views the situation now.
It could also be he is doing some research to ensure he has the pukka gen this time.
It could also be he is doing some research to ensure he has the pukka gen this time.
Thread Starter
Miaaooow pussycats - it takes a while to get back from N Wales to sunny Devon but here goes:
1. I mentioned in my post about perspective and that an R22 in Snowdonia doesn't worry me at all (airmanship and lookout and all that) so all those slagging me off for being too precious can wind their necks in a bit.
2. A TDA is regularly established for an overland SAROP primarily to keep fast jets from flying into helicopters (do the police and Air ambulance not wish they could gain protection from other traffic as well?) ARCC set one up as a matter of routine and not because we asked for it - I made blind calls on 121.5 because the first we knew of the heli activity was when Caenarfon Radio told us of it - he did not know the company frequency and none of the detachment aircraft were on Caernafon at the time. So, in a vague attempt at airmanship to warn them of our impending presence I used an international emergency (and airline chat) frequency.
3. I really didn't know that civvy radios do not have a TR+G facility and find it rather worrying - most sailors with a radio listen out on channel 16 in case of emergency so why don't pilots.
4. Headsethair - the bloke in the hotel (part of the det) was the one who said only one of the instructors would be sharp enough to monitor 121.5, not me. The instructors didn't contact the SAR flight to notify us, they contacted Valley Ops who are not the same thing - if you read my post I said a notam would have been the best option but this wasn't done. I don't have a beef with the detachment at all and I'm glad someone enjoyed seeing us.
5. I am constantly amused that so many operators don't see SAR as operating in the 'real world' just because we are military and not civvy, despite the fact that 95% of our jobs are rescuing civilians from non military situations.
I think everyone should monitor guard - it's there for a good reason and just because it might not be convenient to listen on it doesn't make it right.
1. I mentioned in my post about perspective and that an R22 in Snowdonia doesn't worry me at all (airmanship and lookout and all that) so all those slagging me off for being too precious can wind their necks in a bit.
2. A TDA is regularly established for an overland SAROP primarily to keep fast jets from flying into helicopters (do the police and Air ambulance not wish they could gain protection from other traffic as well?) ARCC set one up as a matter of routine and not because we asked for it - I made blind calls on 121.5 because the first we knew of the heli activity was when Caenarfon Radio told us of it - he did not know the company frequency and none of the detachment aircraft were on Caernafon at the time. So, in a vague attempt at airmanship to warn them of our impending presence I used an international emergency (and airline chat) frequency.
3. I really didn't know that civvy radios do not have a TR+G facility and find it rather worrying - most sailors with a radio listen out on channel 16 in case of emergency so why don't pilots.
4. Headsethair - the bloke in the hotel (part of the det) was the one who said only one of the instructors would be sharp enough to monitor 121.5, not me. The instructors didn't contact the SAR flight to notify us, they contacted Valley Ops who are not the same thing - if you read my post I said a notam would have been the best option but this wasn't done. I don't have a beef with the detachment at all and I'm glad someone enjoyed seeing us.
5. I am constantly amused that so many operators don't see SAR as operating in the 'real world' just because we are military and not civvy, despite the fact that 95% of our jobs are rescuing civilians from non military situations.
I think everyone should monitor guard - it's there for a good reason and just because it might not be convenient to listen on it doesn't make it right.
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Seeing the SAR crew in the hills and over the hotel topped off an incredible weekend. Thanks for the flypast and the general liason, it was good to know we weren't going to drop in on the big yellow machine over the next hill as I struggled with another pinnacle approach.
On the subject, the (public transport) R22 I flew didn't have the capability to monitor 121.5. Looks like a legislative issue as people just wont fit the machines with the capability unless required.
On the subject, the (public transport) R22 I flew didn't have the capability to monitor 121.5. Looks like a legislative issue as people just wont fit the machines with the capability unless required.
Thread Starter
Tu154 - we would have liked to round off our weekend by joining you for the beer that was offered - maybe next time.
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Crab
Protection would be nice but if UK air ambulances were to try and set up TDAs for every broken leg they went to, the country would be awash with red circles!
Generally the fast reaction time to attending these jobs means that it would be totally impractical to try and set up TDAs. They are reserved only for Major Incidents in the Police/HEMS world.
I agree that a civvy version of TR+G would be a great idea. Both of our VHFs are taken up with monitoring local frequencies. But it's class G and keep eyeballs out.
Protection would be nice but if UK air ambulances were to try and set up TDAs for every broken leg they went to, the country would be awash with red circles!
Generally the fast reaction time to attending these jobs means that it would be totally impractical to try and set up TDAs. They are reserved only for Major Incidents in the Police/HEMS world.
I agree that a civvy version of TR+G would be a great idea. Both of our VHFs are taken up with monitoring local frequencies. But it's class G and keep eyeballs out.
Thread Starter
whoateallthepies - since no-one but the military seems to observe the TDAs then all the red circles in the world won't protect you (except from FJ) - this is my point. Surely every aviator has the responsibility to monitor the emergency frequency - if no one does it, who will ever hear your call for help if you are not talking to an ATC unit?
Imagine a major terrorist action along the lines of 9-11 but in class G airspace, all the emergency services launch into action trying their best to minimise loss of life and then someone in an R22 or Cessna 172 bimbles into the area, completely unaware of what is happening as he is not monitoring 121.5, and takes out a vital lifesaving or coordinating asset who was concentrating on a complex scenario with multiple radio inputs and, just for a second, had their lookout degraded by cockpit workload.
A not entirely impossible scenario, I would suggest, when all the air assets have their eyes on the ground assessing landing areas and likely casualties and the GA pilot is rubbernecking wondering where all the smoke is coming from.
The emergency services aircraft will be talking to each other on 123.1 (yes it is still used all the time) for airborne deconfliction plus any other tasking frequency so a TDA is the only way of protecting them from traffic extraneous to the operation. Unfortunately since the CAA and everyone else seems happy that we continue to ignore the civil emergency frequency and all its potential benefits, we had better hope that nothing bad happens in the future (ostrich syndrome).
Imagine a major terrorist action along the lines of 9-11 but in class G airspace, all the emergency services launch into action trying their best to minimise loss of life and then someone in an R22 or Cessna 172 bimbles into the area, completely unaware of what is happening as he is not monitoring 121.5, and takes out a vital lifesaving or coordinating asset who was concentrating on a complex scenario with multiple radio inputs and, just for a second, had their lookout degraded by cockpit workload.
A not entirely impossible scenario, I would suggest, when all the air assets have their eyes on the ground assessing landing areas and likely casualties and the GA pilot is rubbernecking wondering where all the smoke is coming from.
The emergency services aircraft will be talking to each other on 123.1 (yes it is still used all the time) for airborne deconfliction plus any other tasking frequency so a TDA is the only way of protecting them from traffic extraneous to the operation. Unfortunately since the CAA and everyone else seems happy that we continue to ignore the civil emergency frequency and all its potential benefits, we had better hope that nothing bad happens in the future (ostrich syndrome).
Surely every aviator has the responsibility to monitor the emergency frequency
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Crab,
I think you are trying to push water up hill without a pump and your comments together with some you and your colleagues have made on other threads shows holes in your knowledge in civillian ways. There is nothing wrong in that - I never knew military radios constantly monitored guard.
One of the problems with 121.5 is that ppls used to be (and may be still are) taught that reception is poor below 2000' everywhere and very patchy north and west of Manchester. Now I have no idea how true this is, but it is a perception held by many.
To up grade every civillian radio to ones that monitor guard is a non starter without regulation and to be effective would have to include balloons, gliders, microlights, hanggliders and those parachutes with fans on. Not very practical. Remember that there are huge number of aviators who do not fly with a radio at all.
Unfortunately the current TDA system is flawed, I flew unwittingly through the TDA set up for the Hatfield rail disaster, but there is no way I could have known since it was within an hour of it being first NOTAMed (and I was completely unaware of the incident, so you can't accuse me of rubbernecking). Fast jets fly through TDAs set up for SAROPs - I have seen it happen. I am sure you or at least some of your colleagues have seen it too. We can all only do our best to avoid these areas, but when they are set up at short notice and there is no guarenteed means of communicating the information to airborne craft, then TDAs will get busted.
I think you are trying to push water up hill without a pump and your comments together with some you and your colleagues have made on other threads shows holes in your knowledge in civillian ways. There is nothing wrong in that - I never knew military radios constantly monitored guard.
One of the problems with 121.5 is that ppls used to be (and may be still are) taught that reception is poor below 2000' everywhere and very patchy north and west of Manchester. Now I have no idea how true this is, but it is a perception held by many.
To up grade every civillian radio to ones that monitor guard is a non starter without regulation and to be effective would have to include balloons, gliders, microlights, hanggliders and those parachutes with fans on. Not very practical. Remember that there are huge number of aviators who do not fly with a radio at all.
Unfortunately the current TDA system is flawed, I flew unwittingly through the TDA set up for the Hatfield rail disaster, but there is no way I could have known since it was within an hour of it being first NOTAMed (and I was completely unaware of the incident, so you can't accuse me of rubbernecking). Fast jets fly through TDAs set up for SAROPs - I have seen it happen. I am sure you or at least some of your colleagues have seen it too. We can all only do our best to avoid these areas, but when they are set up at short notice and there is no guarenteed means of communicating the information to airborne craft, then TDAs will get busted.
Lordy, How do we former military aviators ever get along in civvie street? No Guard feature....never monitor 121.5 or 243.0.....much less the HF freqs. And all that SAR traffic.....thousands of the things floggin around darting around the Robbies and Pipers....whats a guy to do I ask?
If it were as important as you think Crab....would not the civilian authorities have mandated a Guard feature on VHF radio equipment? Would not the AIP or equivalent mandate a listening watch on 121.5 and thus necessitate the Guard feature?
What is complicated here? You cruise up to the mountains to fetch a broken legged walker to the hospital....probably a flight that a HEMS bird could have handled unless there was some winching involved ....you see some other helicopters in your neighborhood....go to the trouble to demand they all un-ass your area.....and it is the civvie's that are un-professional and dangers to the military?
Do I want to make the legendary PAN call or even a Mayday on 121.5 and hope someone is listening....or on a frequency I am working or was working or one that I know someone is listening to? I would suggest the Guard freq's are a military thing in practice and not something civvies are going to use with any certainty.
I also note you put emphasis upon a TDA for over-land SAR flights....what about over-water SAR flights....you do TDA's for those too?
What protocol does your SAR Coordinator use to dispatch a HEMES aircraft vice a SAR bird?
If it were as important as you think Crab....would not the civilian authorities have mandated a Guard feature on VHF radio equipment? Would not the AIP or equivalent mandate a listening watch on 121.5 and thus necessitate the Guard feature?
What is complicated here? You cruise up to the mountains to fetch a broken legged walker to the hospital....probably a flight that a HEMS bird could have handled unless there was some winching involved ....you see some other helicopters in your neighborhood....go to the trouble to demand they all un-ass your area.....and it is the civvie's that are un-professional and dangers to the military?
Do I want to make the legendary PAN call or even a Mayday on 121.5 and hope someone is listening....or on a frequency I am working or was working or one that I know someone is listening to? I would suggest the Guard freq's are a military thing in practice and not something civvies are going to use with any certainty.
I also note you put emphasis upon a TDA for over-land SAR flights....what about over-water SAR flights....you do TDA's for those too?
What protocol does your SAR Coordinator use to dispatch a HEMES aircraft vice a SAR bird?