Training, hours building and first job prospects in America

[bluestack]

ha ha, life in Titsville....you'll get loads of studying done....

[Gordy]

I'm thinking most people in Titusville are dealing with Fay right now---hence the lack of response.

I have a house for sale in T'ville if you're interested.......

[R1Tamer]

Gordy,

Which realtor is your house with. I'm back in the UK at the moment looking for an investment property in Titusville specifically. It very much depends on the area it's located in though.

Feel free to PM me.

R1Tamer

[tonge]

Has everyone emerged from the storm shelters yet?? Any current students want to give me any hints or tips on life at Bristow Academy??

Tonge

[dnheli]

Proper set up for US ATP working abroad?

Hello PPRuNers;

I'm a U.S. helicopter ATP looking for work since my corporate department is closing. There appear to be overseas opportunities in a wide range of sectors and locations, but my main question now surrounds 'doing it right', that is, having proper work visa, certification, etc to legally do the work.

Having no experience with this, I'm wondering what the collective intel is on the topic, ie should I stay home and not steal jobs from locals, can I work for a time period on a US certificate, and so forth?

Any web site referrals for research are appreciated as well as any other guidance on the topic, narrowly or broadly.

Thank you very much.

[darrenphughes]

What countries tickle your fancy? Immigration & license conversion can be tricky, depending on where you plan on going. Better to be more specific.

[rick1128]

There are several websites that advertise for non-national pilots. climbto350.com and jsfirm.com are two of them. As for certificates, it really depends on the country and the time period of the contract. Usually the company looking for pilots, they usually use a headhunter firm to do the advertising and selection, will take care of the validations. It has been my experience that since they will have to deal with the powers that be directly anyway, they generally start the process. You will be asked to provide copies of your certificates, medical, training records, last proficiency check (pc), passport and the last several pages of your logbook, certified.

My experience has been you will have a contract which will spell out the responsibilities of both parties. IMPORTANT! Get a copy to read over well before signing it. Get all problem areas sorted out and changed IN THE CONTRACT If you don't understand something, get it explained to your understanding, before signing. Trust me, they will hold you to the contract you signed. If and when you go on contract, leave a full copy of the contract at home and take a copy with you. It will prove helpful when they try to jigger with the contract on you. And there are places that try. Also get a good handle on your accommodations if they provide that for you. Get it explained in full and if possible pictures and address. I have stayed at one place that made a South Alabama trailer park look GOOOOOOOOOD!

As for JAA being more advanced, I personally differ with that. More restrictive, yes. More advanced? I don't think so. If it was so great, why doesn't Canada adopt it? The JAA tells you what you can do. The FAA and TC tell what you can't do. There is a big difference.

[rick1128]

Um,

Over the years I have gotten a lot of nonsense from JAA pilots about how the JAA system is much better. Of course, none of them had ever held an FAA certificate or supported their current certificate on their own. I have acted as an FO on a sim ride for a JAA required ride. Compared to 135 PIC ride or a FAA type ride, it was a joke.

It is really interesting to watch the attitude of some JAA folks. They raise a ruckus when a American pilot does a short term contract in Europe, usually to protect the JAA pilots' job. Then whine when they are told they are not really wanted over here. Interesting.

[hostile]

JAA or FAA

I moved from JAA world to here in USA last year and working now a big company with FAA licenses. I have 18 years experience with European system, and when they got JAA regulations it went crazy. Regulations are same for everybody and all countries which are implemented those should use them equally. It wont happen.

Now, I have to say that here in FAA world things goes easier, but still in safe way. There are no any hassle with type ratings (when needed) or any other aircraft trainings. And what is important for individual pilot, this system is 5-6 time cheaper to have licenses like ATP and IR. I paid $8500 for IR ticket. In JAA system it will take maybe around 30 000 to 45 000 Euros! ( $40k -55k) Same result; I work IFR operations and like everywhere, companies gives you Initial (and recurrent) trainings before and between work.

I am happy,

Hostile

[dnheli]

Thank you all for the swift, informative comments.

Right now the only country of prospective interest is India, one job with very few details but might be interesting as a family member goes there on consulting work often and perhaps we could spend more time together that way.

Otherwise, I'm just trying to research as broadly as possible, in case nothing works out for me locally, what with the US financial crisis and all. I want to know if I am comfortable taking overseas work and for me part of that is knowing the risks, benefits, etc.

Several folks here and in other phone calls have indicated that the worry over paperwork is taken care of by the employer, be it licenses or work visa. Probably if I choose such and option it should be with a larger firm until I learn the ropes better. Not good to be stuck overseas on a contract loophole that I didn't see from lack of experience!

Something still might open for me here locally or elsewhere in the states, whether a long commute and weeks on/off, but again, trying to be as best prepared for as many possibilities as I can.

Thanks again.

[hammerhead70]

rick 1128:

Ahhh...here we go again! The typical biased opinion of an American pilot, based on...NOTHING but one individual experience on a sim ride. Nice!!! Before you make such comments you should get ALL the facts together though. The FAA ATP written exam can easily be done by rote learning because you can buy the Test prep with all the questions and answers...big deal! Try that with the JAA written exam for the ATP!
BTW, I do hold a FAA ATP, a TC ATP and a JAA ATP. Many of the European colleagues I have met do have a FAA license as well because they did their initial training in the US. They certainly know what they are talking about when they compare the two systems. Do you hold a JAA license?
I also worked as CFI in the States and I will attest any JAA ATP a much better general aviation knowledge than their FAA counterparts ten fold. Let's not even talk about the practical side. FAA IFR check flight...possible to do in an R22!?! And right after that you can show up in the GOM and "try" your luck, or should we say "push" it!? If you want to fly IFR in the North Sea...you get your multiengine type rating first and then do a multiengine IFR check flight before you are allowed to fly SIC for a while.

Yes...the JAA is much more regulated. But, is that really a disadvantage? Look at the recent accident rates in the GOM and compare those to the North Sea.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/otopdf/2000/oto00089.pd

Human Factors in Offshore Aviation

http://www.hsac.org/Minutes/GOMAcc99_04.pdf

And at last...how many European pilots have you really met, who were even thinking about giving up their jobs in the North Sea and fly in the GOM or somewhere else in the US?
Remuneration for a multiengine IFR Captain in the GOM does not even come close to what a Captain in the North Sea makes! So why would anybody with a sane mind want to give up a job in the civilized world and move to the swamps of Louisiana? Besides that...it is nearly impossible for somebody who is not a US citizen to get a working permit as a helicopter pilot in the US. The guys you are referring to are usually foreign low time pilots trying to built time in the US!
Personally... I don't give a , because living and working in your glorious country would be the last item on my list...right after flying a clapped out 212 on one engine in the most corrupt, muggiest you can imagine!

[inputshaft]

Hammerhead 70

You know, your own post is exceptionally biased and seemingly based on nothing more than working "as a CFI in the States" and a few standard jibes at the VFR part of the GOM.

Also a FAA, Transport Canada and CAA ATP ....... and a Brit

[hammerhead70]

Really??? And your statement is based on what information? If we knew each other you would know that my experience expands far beyond "just working as a CFI in the States" and a few jibes at the VFR part of the GOM!
It's just funny how a guy like Rick1128 gets away with such a stupid comment, basically insulting everybody who holds a JAA license by calling them "whiners" who raise a ruckus when an American pilot does a short term contract in Europe. If that's the case, I'm sure there is a reason for it! Undermining current remuneration standards comes to mind right away! And again...how many US citizens do you know, who work in JAA land as helicopter pilots?
We all know how welcome foreigners are in the US. Just remember the last time you were waiting in line trying to get through Immigration! Why is there no legal way to get a working permit in the US as a helicopter pilot other than getting married there? Feel free to prove me wrong!

There are many differences between the two systems. You can like one better than the other, but that's personal preference! I don't agree with the bureaucracy and the costs in Europe either, but to say that the JAA ride is a joke compared to the FAA 135 ride is just ludicrous! Everybody who has gone through both check rides knows that!
Maybe you would like to comment the development of accidents in the GOM and the US air ambulance industry over the past few years?! I would say there could be quite a few people still be alive, if the FAA had not left so many areas grey and open for interpretation.

I know I'm biased, but that's just because I don't like to be called a "whiner" by a "yankee" who thinks he invented rotary wing aviation!

[IntheTin]

Um... lifting...


Great post..

[darrenphughes]

Unless one has some emotional connection to the N. Sea as an American, it seldom makes sense to pursue a JAA license, relocate, pay a much higher level of tax to live in a place that is much more expensive than the US. At the end of the day, you have less money... as an American.

Yeah, but you get to multiply it by 2 when changing it into dollars!!!

[hammerhead70]

Um...lifting...

Great rhetorical post indeed...but as I said...it's rhetorical and just because you are writing it like that doesn't mean that you are right nor do you provide proof for your points!
Using terms like "objective"...make sure you know what it means and apply it equally to me and yourself and send your bud Rick a copy of it too! He certainly needs it!
Your own and Rick's response tell us one thing though! Everything that you are unable to achieve or is different from you or your system over there CAN NOT be right and therefore will be offended, ridiculed or destroyed. The best example for that is your pals Rick1128 post here.


"The truest characters of ignorance are vanity, and pride and arrogance." - Samuel Butler

[Senior Pilot]

I think that's enough of the playground behaviour, thanks very much

There is so much garbage over the past week that this very valuable thread is on the verge of some very severe ppruning: which will benefit no one. First and final warning

[heliman500]

Offshore accident rate

Hammerhead70, you quoted:

"Look at the recent accident rates in the GOM and compare those to the North Sea"

So i did.....

In the Gulf of Mexico alone there is 58% of the worlds offshore flying, compared to that of the N.Sea where its just 10% (that almost x6 exposure time). Based on this fact alone i think you'll find that its almost obvious to say why there may be more accidents in the Gulf of Mexico. I think its also important to factor in the type of flying that is conducted; the majority of the flying in the GOM is 'field work' where a pilot maybe making 50-60 take-offs & landing a day, compared to that in the N. Sea where it averages about six. As we are all aware; take-off & landings are the most critical portion of any flight and its at this point which most of all accidents occur. With that being said; it is to be expected that more accidents will occur in the GOM at this critical point in flight. You also have to remember that the majority of the flying in the Gulf of Mexico is performed with single engine, which further adds to the risks involved.

I also found this information in the web link you provided:..."the fatal accident rate in the Gulf of Mexico was very close to, and sometimes marginally better than, the experience in the rest of the world"

[hammerhead70]

heliman500:

and the article continues:

2003, however, was a watershed year. The US-based Helicopter Safety Advisory Conference (HSAC) Helicopter Operations and Safety Review 2003 reported in relation to helicopter operations in the Gulf: ‘This was the worst overall accident record in the 20 years since we began gathering data, with the highest number of fatal events (seven) and total fatalities (12), and second highest number of total accidents (15).'

In the five-year period up to and including 2003, there were a total of 47 helicopter accidents in the Gulf of Mexico of which 14 were fatal, resulting in 19 fatalities and 42 injuries. These accidents can be described as follows:

Pilot procedures:
• nine were the result of loss of control or improper procedure;
• five were the result of controlled flight into terrain or water—three occurred at night;
• five were the result of helideck obstacle strikes;
• five were from tie-down procedures, loose cargo and an onshore obstacle strike; and
• one was the result of fuel starvation.

And...one should be very careful by comparing those statistics...I agree! You can really only compare accidents or fatalities per flown hour and then break it further down into single engine, multi engine etc. North Sea operations are mainly conducted in heavy or medium multi engine aircraft. Their counterparts in the GOM have similar or even better "good" statistics.

I don't think that there is more morons flying around in FAA land than anywhere else and I never said that here. But...according to the statistics there is a trend for those accidents and it is going up. The EMS industry is showing the same trend as well. Read it yourself and maybe do your own research!

Fact Sheet - EMS Helicopter Safety


The FAA and other involved authorities are trying to evaluate and solve that problem because that trend in modern day aviation is unacceptable! I'm sure they are looking at every possible aspect of it. That may be the rule and regulation making process, operational procedures or pilot training and licensing. And that's where my point is! To say, under the evidence of those accident trends, that the JAA licensing compared to the FAA is nonsense and the FAA rule making is "more advanced" or the JAA check rides are a joke, is quite a steep statement, especially when the person who makes that statement openly admits that he doesn't even hold the JAA license. Both systems have their flaws and the Europeans like their bureaucracy there is no doubt and I don't support that because it does cost me too!

I also disagree with the statement that there is no correlation between the ability to pass a series of written examinations (which forces you to know your stuff rather than remember the answers and forget most of the material after two weeks) and the safe operation of an aircraft. There is! Being a good stick jiggler is only one part of the equation and is rather insignificant unless your are working 2 feet beside a live power line or with a 200 foot longline pulling wood every day. One of the other ingredients is knowledge. Knowledge leads to experience which hopefully leads to better decision making and ultimately to more safety and less accidents! I haven't heard of any accidents caused by the pilot being a "rough stick", but how many accidents have you heard of who were related to pilot decision making!?


As for other FAA licensed pilots working overseas...I believe that aviation is a global business. The fact that I can work in many places around the world with people from other countries, be that from wherever they are, is great and I enjoy that a lot! Heck...I left my own county years ago to go after my dream and get my initial training in the US. And even though it has nothing to do with the FAA, I do think that the US Immigration law is quite a bit over protective when it comes to foreigners trying to work as helicopter pilots in the US. It's certainly far from "equal rights" to all of us.

And it just boggles my mind when I hear this:

Quote Rick1128: "Over the years I have gotten a lot of nonsense from JAA pilots about how the JAA system is much better. Of course, none of them had ever held an FAA certificate or supported their current certificate on their own. I have acted as an FO on a sim ride for a JAA required ride. Compared to 135 PIC ride or a FAA type ride, it was a joke.

It is really interesting to watch the attitude of some JAA folks. They raise a ruckus when a American pilot does a short term contract in Europe, usually to protect the JAA pilots' job. Then whine when they are told they are not really wanted over here. Interesting."



Anybody who is looking for some honest advice about getting a license be it FAA, TC or JAA or working overseas feel free to ask in a respectful manner. I've worked in the US, Canada, Asia and Europe.

Cheers and fly safe!

[rickorob]

Cheap flying USA

Check out Welcome To Vertical Air Services They have one R22 in Bend, Oregon and one R44 in Key West....They are cheap...Two guys started it, got sick of over priced corporate schools....Part 61 so you can build time if you are foreign but not any ratings.