Airprox: Harrier vs. Air Ambulance (again!)
Thread Starter
Since the argument for upgrade was no doubt increased safety and reduced operating costs
I had 2 different FJ fly close to me today both coming from behind (one during a PFL and the other positioning for ILS) but they both saw me and manoeuvred away - maybe it was the white strobes, maybe it was the hover floods,....
Maybe you should look at how many jobs you get launched to that aren't really essential but keep your callout stats high to please the charity and the NHS and then consider your exposure time to the 'FJ threat' during non-urgent lifesaving flights.
The consistent opinion amongst the non-civil heli pilots appears to be that, in the case of the Jet Ranger death and the Cessna fatality, the civil pilots were the ones to blame. Personally, I cannot ignore the fact that in each instance, a fast jet has flown THROUGH another aircraft; it's a very disturbing image.
I am curious as to how this whole thread would have panned out had the incident in question been a fatal collision??
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
crab,
Before I continue, no they don't go out to do it, but if the opportunity arises ! 
I'm glad someone took the bait anyway.
If I can refer you to GENERAL AVIATION SAFETY SENSE LEAFLET 18A, MILITARY LOW FLYING
Perhaps on this thread, CANP as useful as a machmeter on an S-61! 
And from the horses mouth;
So, were you looking out? I suspect the answer is yes, and I bet you didn't see them til they had passed you.
Perhaps they didn't see you after all, as I guess that the one that was positioning for an ILS may have been told about you from the ATCU, and as the other was doing a PFL would have done a comprehensive HASEL check before commencing the exercise.
Today, it could have been you !!!
No FJ crew goes out to frighten helicopter pilots and they don't launch without proper briefing and planning (including CANPs).
I'm glad someone took the bait anyway.
If I can refer you to GENERAL AVIATION SAFETY SENSE LEAFLET 18A, MILITARY LOW FLYING
CIVIL LOW LEVEL ACTIVITY
LATCC (Mil) ALFENS Ops disseminates the information notified
from the Civil Aircraft Notification Procedure (CANP), to all military flying units.
.....However, no provision is made for commercial (public transport) transit flights at low level.
The ALFENS Ops should be contacted not less than 4 hours beforehand, but preferably earlier, to discuss CANP. This minimum period of 4 hours for notification is required so that aircrew can be advised during their flight planning. Notifications with less than 4 hours notice will generally be accepted but as the notice period diminishes, so does the likelihood of the message getting through.
LATCC (Mil) ALFENS Ops disseminates the information notified
from the Civil Aircraft Notification Procedure (CANP), to all military flying units.
.....However, no provision is made for commercial (public transport) transit flights at low level.
The ALFENS Ops should be contacted not less than 4 hours beforehand, but preferably earlier, to discuss CANP. This minimum period of 4 hours for notification is required so that aircrew can be advised during their flight planning. Notifications with less than 4 hours notice will generally be accepted but as the notice period diminishes, so does the likelihood of the message getting through.
And from the horses mouth;
I had 2 different FJ fly close to me today both coming from behind (one during a PFL and the other positioning for ILS) but they both saw me and manoeuvred away - maybe it was the white strobes, maybe it was the hover floods,....
Perhaps they didn't see you after all, as I guess that the one that was positioning for an ILS may have been told about you from the ATCU, and as the other was doing a PFL would have done a comprehensive HASEL check before commencing the exercise.
Today, it could have been you !!!
Firstly, I was the one doing the PFL and I was the one positioning for the ILS (outside controlled airspace with no ATC) - both in open FIR (class G airspace for ShyTorque) and since I said they both came from behind me - No I didn't see them until they were past me -THAT is my point, they SAW me!
If they saw me because I was in a yellow helicopter then why don't you all paint your AA yellow?
Bomber - you know as well as I do that ambulance control will often task a land ambulance and an air ambulance to the same job - not because an air ambulance has been specifically requested but because the more times the AA gets called out the better the stats look when you are raising money for the charities. I suspect a careful analysis of AA jobs would show that although it is nice for the patient to get to hospital quicker, it is not essential and that the number of injuries requiring immediate helicopter evacuation are far less prevalent.
Has anyone got stats for how many patients would have died but for the AA compared to the actual number of callouts?
As far as I am aware AA are not IFR or night capable (although they should be) so why is that a justification for upgrade?
Droopy, as far as I was aware we were not talking about mountainous areas and UHF guard can be heard at low level in 95% of the UK which is why TDAs are broadcast on it.
Siloesid - you do seem to have a very biased view of FJ pilots - were you a wannabe when you were in the mob? I know some of them can be cocky w*nkers on the ground but don't dismiss their airborne skills lightly - try doing their training and then criticise.
BTW I didn't first mention the CANP system and yes I do know it's no use for AA and police ops.
The Tornado/206 incident involved a non-UK based crew who didn't know about the 206 when they briefed (in Germany I think) and then got airborne for their mission profile that included low level in UK. Since that trajic accident the PINs (pipeline inspection notification system) has been instigated by MOD and any notified activity is included in preflight briefings.
If you are operating AA and you have a problem with FJ then try ringing the local RAF station and talking to someone about it - you might be surprised that we go out of our way to avoid pi88ing people off and we certainly do not treat Airprox as an occupational hazard.
If they saw me because I was in a yellow helicopter then why don't you all paint your AA yellow?
Bomber - you know as well as I do that ambulance control will often task a land ambulance and an air ambulance to the same job - not because an air ambulance has been specifically requested but because the more times the AA gets called out the better the stats look when you are raising money for the charities. I suspect a careful analysis of AA jobs would show that although it is nice for the patient to get to hospital quicker, it is not essential and that the number of injuries requiring immediate helicopter evacuation are far less prevalent.
Has anyone got stats for how many patients would have died but for the AA compared to the actual number of callouts?
As far as I am aware AA are not IFR or night capable (although they should be) so why is that a justification for upgrade?
Droopy, as far as I was aware we were not talking about mountainous areas and UHF guard can be heard at low level in 95% of the UK which is why TDAs are broadcast on it.
Siloesid - you do seem to have a very biased view of FJ pilots - were you a wannabe when you were in the mob? I know some of them can be cocky w*nkers on the ground but don't dismiss their airborne skills lightly - try doing their training and then criticise.
BTW I didn't first mention the CANP system and yes I do know it's no use for AA and police ops.
The Tornado/206 incident involved a non-UK based crew who didn't know about the 206 when they briefed (in Germany I think) and then got airborne for their mission profile that included low level in UK. Since that trajic accident the PINs (pipeline inspection notification system) has been instigated by MOD and any notified activity is included in preflight briefings.
If you are operating AA and you have a problem with FJ then try ringing the local RAF station and talking to someone about it - you might be surprised that we go out of our way to avoid pi88ing people off and we certainly do not treat Airprox as an occupational hazard.
Crab, the local RAF stations all around E. Midlands work very hard to successfully coordinate our AA transits in the local area. In much of Lincolnshire it would be very difficult operate without the cooperation of the military. I receive a daily ops briefing in the Flight Planning room of the largest RAF station in the area. I regularly discuss with the local controllers how to safely conduct my operations.
My operation had 2 Airprox with FJ in 2000 but none since, so perhaps we are doing something right.
One area of concern remains: safe t/o and landings through the 250ft band.
Which way would public opinion sway, regarding local mil LL flying, after just one FJ/AA airtoair?
My operation had 2 Airprox with FJ in 2000 but none since, so perhaps we are doing something right.
One area of concern remains: safe t/o and landings through the 250ft band.
Which way would public opinion sway, regarding local mil LL flying, after just one FJ/AA airtoair?
Hi Crab,
You are off the mark with your comments about Air Ambulance tasking. The Ambulance Control staff really do not care whether we are flying or not, it makes no difference to them other than getting a case off their screen!
The facts are -
We still struggle to get some controls to task us because they are worried that this is wasting money. (False - we actually get cheeper per mission the more we are used.)
The statistics look dreadful if we respond to inappropriate tasks because they show up as aborted or not carried.
Yes, a large number of patients would cope quite well without air transport - there are often hidden benefits e.g. leaving road resources in the rural area rather than losing them for 2 or 3 hours. How many times have you winched someone off a boat that would have survived if they had just carried on to the nearest harbour?
Cheers
TeeS
You are off the mark with your comments about Air Ambulance tasking. The Ambulance Control staff really do not care whether we are flying or not, it makes no difference to them other than getting a case off their screen!
The facts are -
We still struggle to get some controls to task us because they are worried that this is wasting money. (False - we actually get cheeper per mission the more we are used.)
The statistics look dreadful if we respond to inappropriate tasks because they show up as aborted or not carried.
Yes, a large number of patients would cope quite well without air transport - there are often hidden benefits e.g. leaving road resources in the rural area rather than losing them for 2 or 3 hours. How many times have you winched someone off a boat that would have survived if they had just carried on to the nearest harbour?
Cheers
TeeS
Tees - exactly my point - we get tasked to a lot of stuff that doesn't need a helicopter but the CG get the 999 call in and clear it in the quickest but not always the cheapest or most efficient way - don't tell me this doesn't happen with AA because I know it does.
The point I was trying to make is that in any heli operation there is always an element of risk which everyone will try to reduce but can never completely eradicate so make sure you only put yourself at risk (if that is how you perceive the FJ problem) when you really are on urgent lifesaving, not just freeing up a land ambulance to sit on a motorway junction or in a car park somewhere.
Bertie - you are clearly doing something right - good effort - unlike some of the others who just want to moan. As for the take-off and landing phase my only suggestion is a curving flight path both on arrival and departure to maximise lookout and have as many lights on as possible.
You are right on the public opinion - look at what is happening to helicopter low flying monitoring after the Heather Cook inquest - the military are an easy target.
The point I was trying to make is that in any heli operation there is always an element of risk which everyone will try to reduce but can never completely eradicate so make sure you only put yourself at risk (if that is how you perceive the FJ problem) when you really are on urgent lifesaving, not just freeing up a land ambulance to sit on a motorway junction or in a car park somewhere.
Bertie - you are clearly doing something right - good effort - unlike some of the others who just want to moan. As for the take-off and landing phase my only suggestion is a curving flight path both on arrival and departure to maximise lookout and have as many lights on as possible.
You are right on the public opinion - look at what is happening to helicopter low flying monitoring after the Heather Cook inquest - the military are an easy target.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Crab,
This is not an anti-military low flying subject.
You are quite correct that you weren't the first to mention the CANP, but the bait laying doesn't count!
It shows, perhaps, that before this thread, your knowledge bucket in the protection of civil low flying air operations wasn't as full as it is becoming.
SS
(edited to lessen the scratchmarks, meow!)
This is not an anti-military low flying subject.
You are quite correct that you weren't the first to mention the CANP, but the bait laying doesn't count!
It shows, perhaps, that before this thread, your knowledge bucket in the protection of civil low flying air operations wasn't as full as it is becoming.
SS
(edited to lessen the scratchmarks, meow!)
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 1st Mar 2005 at 12:20.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
And it would certainly be an interesting take off using the heliport/elevated helipad procedure at Cat A whilst maintaining a good look out and utilising the curving flight path method recommended by crab!
All this, whilst maintaining within 30 dgrees of the wind!
All this, whilst maintaining within 30 dgrees of the wind!
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You are digging yourself a bigger hole. You are saying your procedures are endangering yourself by being unable to keep a good lookout in what you admit is a dangerous portion of your flight
What is Cat A? (Think JAROPS)
2S
You are digging yourself a bigger hole. You are saying your procedures are endangering yourself by being unable to keep a good lookout in what you admit is a dangerous portion of your flight
What is Cat A? (Think JAROPS)
2S
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
2S,
Please explain how you would maintain a good effective lookout whilst flying backwards in an upward curving flightpath, as recommended by crab.
I assume that you were taught to fly by the guy at Shoreham who has that amazing video. (Sorry, I can't remember his name.)
In other words,
Category A Take-off:.
The take-off must be performed in such a manner that in the event of a single engine failure the helicopter must be able to:
Prior to TDP, return to, and stop safely on the take-off area (rejected take-off).
After TDP, continue the take-off and climbout, and attain a configuration and airspeed that allows continued flight.
SO, if you are \'flying backwards in an upward curving flightpath, as recommended by crab\', and the donk stops how are you complying with CAT A?
Would you like to borrow a shovel.
Please explain how you would maintain a good effective lookout whilst flying backwards in an upward curving flightpath, as recommended by crab.
I assume that you were taught to fly by the guy at Shoreham who has that amazing video. (Sorry, I can't remember his name.)
JAR-OPS 3.480 Terminology
\'Category A\' with respect to helicopters means multi-engine helicopters designed with engine and system isolation features specified in JAR-27/29 or equivalent acceptable to the JAA and Helicopter Flight Manual performance information based on a critical engine failure concept which assures adequate designated surface area and adequate performance capability for continued safe flight in the event of an engine failure.
\'Category A\' with respect to helicopters means multi-engine helicopters designed with engine and system isolation features specified in JAR-27/29 or equivalent acceptable to the JAA and Helicopter Flight Manual performance information based on a critical engine failure concept which assures adequate designated surface area and adequate performance capability for continued safe flight in the event of an engine failure.
Category A Take-off:.
The take-off must be performed in such a manner that in the event of a single engine failure the helicopter must be able to:
Prior to TDP, return to, and stop safely on the take-off area (rejected take-off).
After TDP, continue the take-off and climbout, and attain a configuration and airspeed that allows continued flight.
SO, if you are \'flying backwards in an upward curving flightpath, as recommended by crab\', and the donk stops how are you complying with CAT A?
Would you like to borrow a shovel.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 1st Mar 2005 at 15:10.
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So much gets posted here so quickly I apologise if my post seems to hark back too far.
I think my point about the Cessna at Carno illustrates the problem perfectly! He was engaged in a right turn using a fixed camera, mounted on the right seat, he MAY have been below 500' but that does not mean he was infringing rule 5 which relates to distance from and object not height agl. In any case that is a red herring - he was hit from behind!
Regarding two other points:
A Cat A takeoff requires (in my aircraft) a backward climb to 120' minimum, therefore we are just entering the FJ minimum alt of 250' as we are getting decent forward speed and rate of climb, quite a long time to have no decent vision to the rear quarter.
Secondly many air ambulance are IFR and therefore night approved.
Thirdly, you may believe that FJ's do not deliberately overfly AA or Police HLS, but you should spend a week at Strensham! Half the RAF fj's come by at some time or another.
I think my point about the Cessna at Carno illustrates the problem perfectly! He was engaged in a right turn using a fixed camera, mounted on the right seat, he MAY have been below 500' but that does not mean he was infringing rule 5 which relates to distance from and object not height agl. In any case that is a red herring - he was hit from behind!
Regarding two other points:
A Cat A takeoff requires (in my aircraft) a backward climb to 120' minimum, therefore we are just entering the FJ minimum alt of 250' as we are getting decent forward speed and rate of climb, quite a long time to have no decent vision to the rear quarter.
Secondly many air ambulance are IFR and therefore night approved.
Thirdly, you may believe that FJ's do not deliberately overfly AA or Police HLS, but you should spend a week at Strensham! Half the RAF fj's come by at some time or another.
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When I was last at Strensham they didn't just flyby they very often overflew and on one occasion came rather to close to HV as it was lifting on a job, crew didn't know about it until I told them when they got back!
The site is very clearly marked on all the maps!
The site is very clearly marked on all the maps!
Yes SS of course I have become an A2 QHI and a Sqn trg off without knowing anything about CANP!!!
Who said anything about a backwardclimb? If AA have to comply with Cat A procedures and it is endangering the aircraft to do so maybe you should either A. campaign to the CAA to have the rules changed or B. not do the job at all.
It seems to me that you are less at risk waiting for the land ambulance than hoping a FJ doesn't sneak up on you while you are climbing backwards to 120'.
Anyway I thought we were talking about field operations not elevated helidecks.
If there is a problem at Strensham then talk to the MOD, don't bleat about it on PPrune.
If wanting the military low flying to be contained in DUAs/notamed areas/Canada isn't an anti-mil low flying suggestion I don't know what is.
PS SS your profile indicates you are an apache god not a mere mortal AA driver - unless it's all bo88ocks of course.....
Who said anything about a backwardclimb? If AA have to comply with Cat A procedures and it is endangering the aircraft to do so maybe you should either A. campaign to the CAA to have the rules changed or B. not do the job at all.
It seems to me that you are less at risk waiting for the land ambulance than hoping a FJ doesn't sneak up on you while you are climbing backwards to 120'.
Anyway I thought we were talking about field operations not elevated helidecks.
If there is a problem at Strensham then talk to the MOD, don't bleat about it on PPrune.
If wanting the military low flying to be contained in DUAs/notamed areas/Canada isn't an anti-mil low flying suggestion I don't know what is.
PS SS your profile indicates you are an apache god not a mere mortal AA driver - unless it's all bo88ocks of course.....
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Yes SS of course I have become an A2 QHI and a Sqn trg off without knowing anything about CANP!!!
Who said anything about a backwardclimb? If AA have to comply with Cat A procedures and it is endangering the aircraft to do so maybe you should either A. campaign to the CAA to have the rules changed or B. not do the job at all.
It seems to me that you are less at risk waiting for the land ambulance than hoping a FJ doesn't sneak up on you while you are climbing backwards to 120'.
Anyway I thought we were talking about field operations not elevated helidecks.
If there is a problem at Strensham then talk to the MOD, don't bleat about it on PPrune.
If wanting the military low flying to be contained in DUAs/notamed areas/Canada isn't an anti-mil low flying suggestion I don't know what is.
PS SS your profile indicates you are an apache god not a mere mortal AA driver - unless it's all bo88ocks of course.....
Who said anything about a backwardclimb? If AA have to comply with Cat A procedures and it is endangering the aircraft to do so maybe you should either A. campaign to the CAA to have the rules changed or B. not do the job at all.
It seems to me that you are less at risk waiting for the land ambulance than hoping a FJ doesn't sneak up on you while you are climbing backwards to 120'.
Anyway I thought we were talking about field operations not elevated helidecks.
If there is a problem at Strensham then talk to the MOD, don't bleat about it on PPrune.
If wanting the military low flying to be contained in DUAs/notamed areas/Canada isn't an anti-mil low flying suggestion I don't know what is.
PS SS your profile indicates you are an apache god not a mere mortal AA driver - unless it's all bo88ocks of course.....
Lets bear in mind that crab felt he had to remind us that he is an A2 QHI and a Sqn trg off.
'Field operations', 'air ambulance', 'Cat A Ops' and crab you are surprised we are talking about backward take offs, better known as a heliport/elevated helipad procedure.
Even with my limited requirement for field operations, (dropping off bobbies to apprehend someone, investigate something or to land in a field at the scene of an RTC outside the operating hours of the local aa, and even my short stint with an aa unit,), I have had to use a helipad arrival / departure in order to comply with Cat A Operations. I can imagine that 'normal' air ambulance ops in the field will require the helipad departure/arrival profile if not all then certainly most of the time.
If AA have to comply with Cat A procedures and it is endangering the aircraft to do so maybe you should either A. campaign to the CAA to have the rules changed or B. not do the job at all.
May I suggest that should you ever need an air ambulance, then make sure that you have at least about 500metres of clear area in the near vicinity. And consider yourself an extra set of eyes.!
"PS SS your profile indicates you are an apache god not a mere mortal AA driver - unless it's all bo88ocks of course....."
My profile indicates 'WAH64FS2004' then a comma so make your own conclusion again.
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Sorry must hand you the shovel. CAT A refers to the helicopter not the procedure. Under JAROPS there are now 3 performance classess. You require a CAT A helicopter to perform Class 1 and 2 procedures
Class 1 which equates to the old Cat A ie critical engine stops anywhere and helicopter can continue to fly away or land safely in the reject area.
Class 2 which equates to the old Cat A restricted, ie critical engine stops and helicopter can continue to fly away but if failure occurs early during t/off or late in landing phase a forced landing may be required.
Class 3 where the performance is such that an engine failure in flight may result in a force landing in a multi engined helicopter but will be required in a single
The CAA allow class 2 performance for operation to an elevated helipad (oil rig) so why can't the police/AA arrange the same dispensation.
It is all about risk management. Is it more likely an engine will stop at a critical time or will you be hit by a FJ because your lookout is restricted by procedure limitations. Is it safer to land in a field with a better approach/dep path which allows Class 1 performance but is further from the casualty who may need instant attention. Can you move after dropping off the medics to a safer t/off point. These are all questions that an exp pilot should be asking.
It seems that not enough is being done on BOTH sides to alleviate the danger.
2S
Sorry must hand you the shovel. CAT A refers to the helicopter not the procedure. Under JAROPS there are now 3 performance classess. You require a CAT A helicopter to perform Class 1 and 2 procedures
Class 1 which equates to the old Cat A ie critical engine stops anywhere and helicopter can continue to fly away or land safely in the reject area.
Class 2 which equates to the old Cat A restricted, ie critical engine stops and helicopter can continue to fly away but if failure occurs early during t/off or late in landing phase a forced landing may be required.
Class 3 where the performance is such that an engine failure in flight may result in a force landing in a multi engined helicopter but will be required in a single
The CAA allow class 2 performance for operation to an elevated helipad (oil rig) so why can't the police/AA arrange the same dispensation.
It is all about risk management. Is it more likely an engine will stop at a critical time or will you be hit by a FJ because your lookout is restricted by procedure limitations. Is it safer to land in a field with a better approach/dep path which allows Class 1 performance but is further from the casualty who may need instant attention. Can you move after dropping off the medics to a safer t/off point. These are all questions that an exp pilot should be asking.
It seems that not enough is being done on BOTH sides to alleviate the danger.
2S
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Firstly;
Section 1 SubPart A
JAR-OPS [Part] 3 does not apply to helicopters when used in military, customs, police services and SAR.
Helicopter Emergency Medical Service (HEMS) operations shall be conducted in accordance with the requirements contained in JAR-OPS Part 3 except for the variations contained in Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) for which a specific approval is required.
Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) Helicopter Emergency Medical Service
Performance requirements
(i) Take-off and landing
Helicopters with a MTOM of 5 700 kg or less
(A) Helicopters conducting operations to/from a heliport at a hospital which is located in a hostile environment, shall be operated in accordance with Subpart G (Performance Class 1)[; except when the operator holds an Approval to operate under Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(i).]
(B) Helicopters conducting operations to/from a HEMS
operating site located in a hostile environment shall as far as possible be operated in accordance with Subpart G (Performance Class 1).
The commander shall make every reasonable effort to minimise the period during which there would be
danger to helicopter occupants and persons on the surface in the event of failure of a power unit.
(ii) Take-off and landing
Helicopters with a MTOM exceeding 5 700 kg.
Helicopters conducting HEMS shall be operated in accordance with Performance Class 1.
So, (Cat A) Perf 1 unless variation approval has been granted? 
Section 1 SubPart A
JAR-OPS [Part] 3 does not apply to helicopters when used in military, customs, police services and SAR.
Helicopter Emergency Medical Service (HEMS) operations shall be conducted in accordance with the requirements contained in JAR-OPS Part 3 except for the variations contained in Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) for which a specific approval is required.
Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(d) Helicopter Emergency Medical Service
Performance requirements
(i) Take-off and landing
Helicopters with a MTOM of 5 700 kg or less
(A) Helicopters conducting operations to/from a heliport at a hospital which is located in a hostile environment, shall be operated in accordance with Subpart G (Performance Class 1)[; except when the operator holds an Approval to operate under Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 3.005(i).]
(B) Helicopters conducting operations to/from a HEMS
operating site located in a hostile environment shall as far as possible be operated in accordance with Subpart G (Performance Class 1).
The commander shall make every reasonable effort to minimise the period during which there would be
danger to helicopter occupants and persons on the surface in the event of failure of a power unit.
(ii) Take-off and landing
Helicopters with a MTOM exceeding 5 700 kg.
Helicopters conducting HEMS shall be operated in accordance with Performance Class 1.
So, (Cat A) Perf 1 unless variation approval has been granted?
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You are coming round at last
your quote
"B) Helicopters conducting operations to/from a HEMS
operating site located in a hostile environment shall as far as possible be operated in accordance with Subpart G (Performance Class 1).
The commander shall make every reasonable effort to minimise the period during which there would be danger to helicopter occupants and persons on the surface in the event of failure of a power unit."
This is Class 2 so there is dispensation to avoid the helipad departure if the commander assesses the risk of a FJ collision as high.
As I and Crab have said before a curving departure Class 2 will give you the best chance of seeing and being seen.
2S
You are coming round at last
your quote
"B) Helicopters conducting operations to/from a HEMS
operating site located in a hostile environment shall as far as possible be operated in accordance with Subpart G (Performance Class 1).
The commander shall make every reasonable effort to minimise the period during which there would be danger to helicopter occupants and persons on the surface in the event of failure of a power unit."
This is Class 2 so there is dispensation to avoid the helipad departure if the commander assesses the risk of a FJ collision as high.
As I and Crab have said before a curving departure Class 2 will give you the best chance of seeing and being seen.
2S
Thanks 2strops.
SS I have only flown in the Military and as such have never had to comply with Cat A procedures and view them with complete disdain. We fly our own profiles to minimise exposure to not only engine failure at critical stages of flight, but also other aircraft.
Good pilots think about what they are doing and why rather than blindly following the 'rule book' and endangering the aircraft and pax.
I missed the FS part of the AH64 - are you sure you don't fly AirAmbulanceFS2005 as well.
SS I have only flown in the Military and as such have never had to comply with Cat A procedures and view them with complete disdain. We fly our own profiles to minimise exposure to not only engine failure at critical stages of flight, but also other aircraft.
Good pilots think about what they are doing and why rather than blindly following the 'rule book' and endangering the aircraft and pax.
I missed the FS part of the AH64 - are you sure you don't fly AirAmbulanceFS2005 as well.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
OK, I see crab and 2S are in agreement.
For my next OPC I shall make sure that more time is taken on this curving departure, with backward option as required, as opposed to / in addition to, the normal profiles required.
I wonder what the answer will be on that one.
crab;
Like avoiding HLSs and other areas of GA traffic activity, thinking the UKLFS will protect them in the event of......?
WOW! 
For my next OPC I shall make sure that more time is taken on this curving departure, with backward option as required, as opposed to / in addition to, the normal profiles required.
I wonder what the answer will be on that one.
crab;
Good pilots think about what they are doing and why rather than blindly following the 'rule book' and endangering the aircraft and pax.
......never had to comply with Cat A procedures and view them with complete disdain.