R22 Corner
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Uncle Joe,
If you're comfortable doing full-down autos, don't let anyone discourage you. Do them! Use common sense, of course- pick your day, make sure there's some wind blowing and have a big, flat, unobstructed area. Have a ball! I would advise against power-recoveries. Too risky. Make a good entry, commit yourself and go to the ground. This way you'll have the confidence that you'll be able to do it "for real." As an experienced plank driver, you probably have enough air sense and judgement by now. And if you do muck it up, hey, you knew the risks going in, right?
One last thing. An R-22 whilst solo may run the Nr on the low side. But then, it doesn't need to overcome that much inertia at the lighter weight, eh?
Be careful and have fun.
If you're comfortable doing full-down autos, don't let anyone discourage you. Do them! Use common sense, of course- pick your day, make sure there's some wind blowing and have a big, flat, unobstructed area. Have a ball! I would advise against power-recoveries. Too risky. Make a good entry, commit yourself and go to the ground. This way you'll have the confidence that you'll be able to do it "for real." As an experienced plank driver, you probably have enough air sense and judgement by now. And if you do muck it up, hey, you knew the risks going in, right?
One last thing. An R-22 whilst solo may run the Nr on the low side. But then, it doesn't need to overcome that much inertia at the lighter weight, eh?
Be careful and have fun.
Guest
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It seems strange when I read the above posts in that you are all highly experienced pilots and you all disagree about how to set the helicopter up for autorotation. Which one of you is correct.
Another thing I find strange, is that in some of my past postings, and in the report I sent to many of you, I specifically stated that the rigging procedure on both the R22 and the R44 is vague and ambiguous and could lead to the incorporation of excessive pitch and many of you tossed it off as the ramblings of an idiot (my words not yours).
Yet in many of the above postings some of the writers alluded to a possible rigging problem. Could it be that we are both right?
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The Cat
Another thing I find strange, is that in some of my past postings, and in the report I sent to many of you, I specifically stated that the rigging procedure on both the R22 and the R44 is vague and ambiguous and could lead to the incorporation of excessive pitch and many of you tossed it off as the ramblings of an idiot (my words not yours).
Yet in many of the above postings some of the writers alluded to a possible rigging problem. Could it be that we are both right?
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The Cat
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Flare Dammit,
If Uncle Joe was comfortable doing autos he wouldn't be having the difficulties he is, would he? How you feel isn't always a good indication of what you can do safely.
Lu,
Firstly, not everyone here is highly experienced. Doesn't stop them saying what they think, and it shouldn't either. Secondly, they're really only disagreeing as to details. Look at threads on any other forum, eg the arguments about carb heat on final on the Instuctors Forum; you'll find loads of similar minor disagreements. As you say, there can be times when both sides are right.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
If Uncle Joe was comfortable doing autos he wouldn't be having the difficulties he is, would he? How you feel isn't always a good indication of what you can do safely.
Lu,
Firstly, not everyone here is highly experienced. Doesn't stop them saying what they think, and it shouldn't either. Secondly, they're really only disagreeing as to details. Look at threads on any other forum, eg the arguments about carb heat on final on the Instuctors Forum; you'll find loads of similar minor disagreements. As you say, there can be times when both sides are right.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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From the R22 Pilot's Operating Handbook:
OVERCONFIDENCE PREVAILS IN ACCIDENTS
A personal trait most often found in pilots having serious accidents is overconfidence. High-time fixed-wing pilots transitioning into helicopters and private owners are particularly susceptible. Airplane pilots feel confident and relaxed in the air, but have not yet developed the control feel, coordination, and sensitivity demanded by a helicopter.....When flown properly and conservatively, helicopters are potentially the safest aircraft built. But helicopters are also probably the least forgiving. The pilot should allow himself a greater safety margin than he thinks will be necessary, just in case.
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
OVERCONFIDENCE PREVAILS IN ACCIDENTS
A personal trait most often found in pilots having serious accidents is overconfidence. High-time fixed-wing pilots transitioning into helicopters and private owners are particularly susceptible. Airplane pilots feel confident and relaxed in the air, but have not yet developed the control feel, coordination, and sensitivity demanded by a helicopter.....When flown properly and conservatively, helicopters are potentially the safest aircraft built. But helicopters are also probably the least forgiving. The pilot should allow himself a greater safety margin than he thinks will be necessary, just in case.
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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It take a certain amount of balls to fly helicopters. Its why femmes dont make good helo pilots 
. One must be aggresive, both physically and mentally. Timidity makes for a lousy helo pilot characteristic. I never knew a helicopter pilot who was worth a sh** who didn't *think* he was pretty damn good. The problem is, we're not supposed to admit it out loud. Also, we have to have the chops to back it up. Yes, its easy to think you're better than you are.
But how do you get good? You go out and practice, man. Like sex, practising alone will polish your technique.
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The fly is human, the hippo bovine
[This message has been edited by helidrvr (edited 29 October 2000).]
. One must be aggresive, both physically and mentally. Timidity makes for a lousy helo pilot characteristic. I never knew a helicopter pilot who was worth a sh** who didn't *think* he was pretty damn good. The problem is, we're not supposed to admit it out loud. Also, we have to have the chops to back it up. Yes, its easy to think you're better than you are.But how do you get good? You go out and practice, man. Like sex, practising alone will polish your technique.
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The fly is human, the hippo bovine
[This message has been edited by helidrvr (edited 29 October 2000).]
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Flare
Really! You should come and fly with one or two lady helicopter pilots that I know.
Incidentally, my second husband does not agree with your views about women in general – he has asked me to say that the women he has been involved with (when their corner is truly threatened) are more ruthless and viscous than any man. Indeed he thinks they would make the best fighter jocks because of this – as well as because the female of the species performs better under high g as the centrifuge shows.
34
Really! You should come and fly with one or two lady helicopter pilots that I know.
Incidentally, my second husband does not agree with your views about women in general – he has asked me to say that the women he has been involved with (when their corner is truly threatened) are more ruthless and viscous than any man. Indeed he thinks they would make the best fighter jocks because of this – as well as because the female of the species performs better under high g as the centrifuge shows.
34
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God bless anonimity.
With regards to the low RRPM issue, it is a part of the test flight after a service to check the rotor rpm. To do this we have to fill out the Auto RPM graph that takes into account the Gross WT of the aircraft, as well as the ambient coditions. If we fill out this graph it shouldn't matter what the weight is or the conditions, we will ALWAYS be able to achieve at least the minimum RRPM in an Auto.
Having said that - it is not uncommon to jump in a machine that has the rigging set up that requires about one half to an inch of collictive to stop the overspeed in the auto. Some people think this is good but realy it is taking away precious collective travel that will be needed to cushion the landing after the flare at the bottom.
We have an instructor in Australia that demonstrates a 40 knot Auto'. It does work, but is probably not appropriate for normal operations where you need a zero airspeed touchdown in the bush or on soft ground. The 40 kts auto requires any thing from 3 to 5 skid lengths to stop - A horrible feeling. The zero speed touchdown is the one we should be striving for, but I guess in the training environment, initialy instructors can teach the 40 kts auto knowing that it will probably save the students life (maybe not the machine) with regards to their experience. Who knows.
Nothing beats a good old split ass flare at the bottom.
Cheers
With regards to the low RRPM issue, it is a part of the test flight after a service to check the rotor rpm. To do this we have to fill out the Auto RPM graph that takes into account the Gross WT of the aircraft, as well as the ambient coditions. If we fill out this graph it shouldn't matter what the weight is or the conditions, we will ALWAYS be able to achieve at least the minimum RRPM in an Auto.
Having said that - it is not uncommon to jump in a machine that has the rigging set up that requires about one half to an inch of collictive to stop the overspeed in the auto. Some people think this is good but realy it is taking away precious collective travel that will be needed to cushion the landing after the flare at the bottom.
We have an instructor in Australia that demonstrates a 40 knot Auto'. It does work, but is probably not appropriate for normal operations where you need a zero airspeed touchdown in the bush or on soft ground. The 40 kts auto requires any thing from 3 to 5 skid lengths to stop - A horrible feeling. The zero speed touchdown is the one we should be striving for, but I guess in the training environment, initialy instructors can teach the 40 kts auto knowing that it will probably save the students life (maybe not the machine) with regards to their experience. Who knows.
Nothing beats a good old split ass flare at the bottom.
Cheers
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Flare Dammit
Please, you are just a wind up..... aren't you? Like the jokes but encouraging mintballs to risk his neck is beyond a joke.
The more I read about the R22 in this and other threads just re-inforces my view that it is a nasty bit of kit designed and waiting to bite at the slightest pilot error.
Really, any aircraft that can't be safely autorotated by a low hour solo simply doesn't deserve a C of A. Christ on a bike, what does he do if the motor quits or his elastic bands snap, call for an in flight instructor transfer?
perleeeze.
Please, you are just a wind up..... aren't you? Like the jokes but encouraging mintballs to risk his neck is beyond a joke.
The more I read about the R22 in this and other threads just re-inforces my view that it is a nasty bit of kit designed and waiting to bite at the slightest pilot error.
Really, any aircraft that can't be safely autorotated by a low hour solo simply doesn't deserve a C of A. Christ on a bike, what does he do if the motor quits or his elastic bands snap, call for an in flight instructor transfer?
perleeeze.
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Ark :
The R22 can be safely autoed by low time pilots. How else do they pass their GFTs ? Even I can do it and I'm lower time than most !!
If the a/c has low RPM even with a 12 stone bod in it and the lever full down, that's a rigging problem - difficult to detect on a pre-flight, and not really related to certification unless the design ( and here's a nod in Lu's direction ) the certification is flawed.
Tell you one thing, it makes you very quick at getting the lever down - that's something that can only help in ANY type you fly. I remember seeing a story about a Super Puma reaching 70% Nr in a flight test - if I find the reference I'll post it.
Lastly - have you ever flown a Robbie ? If you're talking from personal experience that's fine, otherwise I'd be only too happy to give you a jolly to find out for yourself.
The R22 can be safely autoed by low time pilots. How else do they pass their GFTs ? Even I can do it and I'm lower time than most !!
If the a/c has low RPM even with a 12 stone bod in it and the lever full down, that's a rigging problem - difficult to detect on a pre-flight, and not really related to certification unless the design ( and here's a nod in Lu's direction ) the certification is flawed.
Tell you one thing, it makes you very quick at getting the lever down - that's something that can only help in ANY type you fly. I remember seeing a story about a Super Puma reaching 70% Nr in a flight test - if I find the reference I'll post it.
Lastly - have you ever flown a Robbie ? If you're talking from personal experience that's fine, otherwise I'd be only too happy to give you a jolly to find out for yourself.
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To all you heli guys above. I have always had a strong fascination in helicopters even after many thousand hours in fixed wing and still hanker after doing a ppl/h, however I have to say after all this talk of low rotor rpm and particularly the R22 and its particular flying characteristics I am wondering whether i had just better stick to what I know. Someone convince me otherwise or is there a better small helicopter to learn on than the R22. Meanwhile keep flying safely and I will continue to look on with envy.
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I think this forum is fantastic for picking up peoples opinions and experience. I would also like to leave my comment on this subject which is that my CFI (I fly R22s) has ingrained into me that "Autos are your personal insurance policy" and I make sure that I have at least 1.5 hrs every 3-4 months with an instructor covering autos. I would never dream of doing them on my own at this stage (80 hours TT). I just hope that if I ever have to commit myself to a real one that all this training and experience pays off and I can walk away from it, I,m sure it will.
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I'm not a helo driver but have spent a few hours in them courtesy of the offshore industry and a fellow ppruner and thus I do appreciate that they are a tad less stable than your average plank supported aircraft. I agree with the people that say practice auto's with an instructor. When I first did aeros, if I didn't feel happy with my (self) chosen detail, I'd drag an instructor along.
You only get the one life, this is not a rehersal.....
PS. Didn't Mr. Robinson throw his hands up in horror at the thought of the R22 being used as a training machine?????
PPS. Flare Dammit. Practising sex alone? That makes you a w a n k e r in most civilised countries. Hope your helo driving abilities don't reflect this.
[This message has been edited by LowNSlow (edited 31 October 2000).]
You only get the one life, this is not a rehersal.....
PS. Didn't Mr. Robinson throw his hands up in horror at the thought of the R22 being used as a training machine?????
PPS. Flare Dammit. Practising sex alone? That makes you a w a n k e r in most civilised countries. Hope your helo driving abilities don't reflect this.
[This message has been edited by LowNSlow (edited 31 October 2000).]
Guest
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Put some extra weight under not only your seat, but both...
Flew with a couple of guys who only weighed 115lbs or so and we always added weight under his/her seat (expecially on solo flights)
Being fat bastard that I am - I only need to floor collective and leave it there prior to flare when practicing autos solo.
Low-time pilots should practice w/instructor until maneuvers is mastered, but I guess you've heard this already.
later
Flew with a couple of guys who only weighed 115lbs or so and we always added weight under his/her seat (expecially on solo flights)
Being fat bastard that I am - I only need to floor collective and leave it there prior to flare when practicing autos solo.
Low-time pilots should practice w/instructor until maneuvers is mastered, but I guess you've heard this already.
later
Guest
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Yo: LowNSlow:
Re. your comment:
PS. Didn't Mr. Robinson throw his hands up in horror at the thought of the R22 being used as a training machine?????
Yes, that's true but his company still pops them out of the pod knowing full well that most of them are being used for trainers.
In any case, when a new buyer purchases one he too must be trained in either a school ship or, in his own helicopter.
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The Cat
Re. your comment:
PS. Didn't Mr. Robinson throw his hands up in horror at the thought of the R22 being used as a training machine?????
Yes, that's true but his company still pops them out of the pod knowing full well that most of them are being used for trainers.
In any case, when a new buyer purchases one he too must be trained in either a school ship or, in his own helicopter.
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The Cat
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hey Joe,
1st, don't worry about rudder. American Navy helo pilots call it that. ( I am ex Army). Sounds your a/c may have a riging problem. You have a potentially dangerouse problem there. Call maint. to re-rig the system. Even though I never flown a R22, I do have a CFII and a helo is a helo. Go with a experienced pilot?mech and check the rigging
j
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How could they possibly be Japanese planes?
— Admiral Husband E. Kimmel
Believe me, Germany is unable to wage war.
— Former British Prime Minister David LLoyd George, 1 August, 1934.
[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 07 November 2000).]
1st, don't worry about rudder. American Navy helo pilots call it that. ( I am ex Army). Sounds your a/c may have a riging problem. You have a potentially dangerouse problem there. Call maint. to re-rig the system. Even though I never flown a R22, I do have a CFII and a helo is a helo. Go with a experienced pilot?mech and check the rigging
j
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How could they possibly be Japanese planes?
— Admiral Husband E. Kimmel
Believe me, Germany is unable to wage war.
— Former British Prime Minister David LLoyd George, 1 August, 1934.
[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 07 November 2000).]
Guest
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A simple explanation that has been overlooked is when the R22 was rigged. Summer vs winter. Also, expect a lower end RRPM at lower weights, its normal. Solo R22 autos are a bad idea because it IS an unforgiving aircraft of errors, it wasn't designed to be a trainer, it just happens to be very economical to operate. Respect the limits of the aircraft and you will have no problems.
BTW: I love them!
BTW: I love them!
Guest
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Robinson: Tech Q's
Once again, I must admit to a major error. The error was in my statements about the 18-degree offset on the rotating swashplate, in relation to the stationary part of the swash plate. The fact that when the blades are disposed over the lateral axis creates an 18-degree difference between the two elements of the swashplate means absolutely nothing and, I am sorry that I took up so much of your time in trying to justify the offset. I tried to tie this into gyroscopic precession and the left tilt of the rotor disc. I also referenced the fact that this difference could cause an increase in pitch possibly resulting in blade stall. On this particular point I was really wrong. In Frank Robinsons’ explanation of this problem he talked about delta effect and that pretty much explained his side of the story.
How I came to this conclusion was by reading and re-reading the rigging procedures. Some of you may have read my posts on this thread where I compared a Bell Rotor system to that of a Robinson rotor system. You may recall I suggested a test on both helicopters where the blades were positioned in a specific way and the cyclic was to be moved in a specific direction. In the case of the Bell the blades would not move but on the Robinson they would move. Then I suggested that the Robinson blades be rotated until the pitch links were above a specific axis and then the test was to be repeated. When the cyclic was moved the blades did not move. I used this point to show that there was an 18-degree offset on the swashplate and if not compensated for the helicopter would move to the left when the cyclic was moved forward. This conclusion was correct but the basis for the conclusion was incorrect.
Prior to going any further I have to assume that most of the participants on this thread all believe in phase angle and 90 degrees of gyroscopic precession. If you don’t agree with this concept you can stop reading this post right now.
Here is the real story. When the Robinson R22 and R44 are rigged for cyclic control ranges the blades are rotated so that the pitch links are directly over the lateral or longitudinal axes of the helicopter. Unlike the Bell where the blades are disposed over either the longitudinal or lateral axes of the helicopter the Robinsons’ blades are offset 18-degrees ahead of the respective axes.
This means that when the cyclic is pushed forward from the neutral center the blades will have reached their maximum pitch input and with gyroscopic precession they will have their maximum response to that input 90-degrees later. That means, that the blades will tip down left of the longitudinal centerline. The ultimate conclusion was correct but the means of reaching it was flawed. Frank Robinson knew that my assumption was correct but, but my reasoning was not, so he weasel-worded his way out of it by stating that the engineering explanation about delta hinge effect was too complex to put into words in the forum.
Let’s hear you comments
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The Cat
How I came to this conclusion was by reading and re-reading the rigging procedures. Some of you may have read my posts on this thread where I compared a Bell Rotor system to that of a Robinson rotor system. You may recall I suggested a test on both helicopters where the blades were positioned in a specific way and the cyclic was to be moved in a specific direction. In the case of the Bell the blades would not move but on the Robinson they would move. Then I suggested that the Robinson blades be rotated until the pitch links were above a specific axis and then the test was to be repeated. When the cyclic was moved the blades did not move. I used this point to show that there was an 18-degree offset on the swashplate and if not compensated for the helicopter would move to the left when the cyclic was moved forward. This conclusion was correct but the basis for the conclusion was incorrect.
Prior to going any further I have to assume that most of the participants on this thread all believe in phase angle and 90 degrees of gyroscopic precession. If you don’t agree with this concept you can stop reading this post right now.
Here is the real story. When the Robinson R22 and R44 are rigged for cyclic control ranges the blades are rotated so that the pitch links are directly over the lateral or longitudinal axes of the helicopter. Unlike the Bell where the blades are disposed over either the longitudinal or lateral axes of the helicopter the Robinsons’ blades are offset 18-degrees ahead of the respective axes.
This means that when the cyclic is pushed forward from the neutral center the blades will have reached their maximum pitch input and with gyroscopic precession they will have their maximum response to that input 90-degrees later. That means, that the blades will tip down left of the longitudinal centerline. The ultimate conclusion was correct but the means of reaching it was flawed. Frank Robinson knew that my assumption was correct but, but my reasoning was not, so he weasel-worded his way out of it by stating that the engineering explanation about delta hinge effect was too complex to put into words in the forum.
Let’s hear you comments
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The Cat
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I asked around a little about the R22 rotor design after reading Frank's post and the numerous others on the subject and I heard pretty much the same thing that Frank said. The 18 degrees was designed into the head to try to deal with some complex characteristics involved with pitch coupling. The R22, if designed with a 90 degree offset, would force the pilot to compensate in the low speed regime. The design as it stands, necessitates some compensation at higher speeds. From what I understand, without complex flight control servos and such, the design chosen by the manufacturer will always be a compromise. I'd love to hear more on the subject myself, especially from someone who has a knack for teaching.