R22 Corner
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Right off robinson's website they give the cruise speed @ 70% power as 96kts.
I understand the UK has some different rules governing operation....is this possibly one of them?
Here is the link to robinson:
http://www.robinsonheli.com/r22specs.htm
(sorry, I made this post before I saw the one previous....)
Join Date: Jan 2006
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LTE in a R-22 Beta II
Anyone ever got LTE in a R-22 before?
I ask, because I got into it a couple of weeks ago taking some photo's with my friend. Just above ETL, but then let it get into ETL, wind blowing at my 8 O'clock. I kindly introduced it to my R-22!
I yawed to the right, 780 degrees in about 2 seconds! Stomped on that left pedal, pulled a bit a pitch, got the low rpm horn, lowered the collective now, and nosed it over to fly out of it, took 2 tries to nose it over, all the time yawing back and forth. Once I got to about 20+KTS, nose started to swing left, and then checked my trousers! The whole thing took about 15 seconds, but it felt like 3 min.!
I now am more aware of where the winds are, and I was able to get out of it, with small control movements. I think had I made some careless control inputs, I would have had to put it down on the beach, but I didn't. But I made the careless movement, of introducing LTE to the R-22! You definately learn something every flight, I did that day.
I ask, because I got into it a couple of weeks ago taking some photo's with my friend. Just above ETL, but then let it get into ETL, wind blowing at my 8 O'clock. I kindly introduced it to my R-22!
I yawed to the right, 780 degrees in about 2 seconds! Stomped on that left pedal, pulled a bit a pitch, got the low rpm horn, lowered the collective now, and nosed it over to fly out of it, took 2 tries to nose it over, all the time yawing back and forth. Once I got to about 20+KTS, nose started to swing left, and then checked my trousers! The whole thing took about 15 seconds, but it felt like 3 min.! I now am more aware of where the winds are, and I was able to get out of it, with small control movements. I think had I made some careless control inputs, I would have had to put it down on the beach, but I didn't. But I made the careless movement, of introducing LTE to the R-22! You definately learn something every flight, I did that day.
Maybe you got vortex ring as well; LTE is not common in Robinsons. Usually full left pedal stops it dead; however, if entering vortex ring state downwind, then erratic yawing is a symptom. Your loss of pitch control also seems to support this theory.
Any comments?
Any comments?
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It happened to me twice, and when I asked about it a few years back everybody said it was highly unlikely in the robbie. Nick Lappos finally answered my question and then it made sense. If the wind is off your 10 - 11 o'clock position in the hover at high gross weight the main rotor tip vorticies can get into the tail rotor and disrupt the flow and thus LTE. I've since been told that it can be over come with left peddle but I probably didn't put in FULL left peddle and have since never experienced it again. Although now maybe with the onset of it I use Full left peddle and keep a closer eye on the wind direction.
Kirt - good thinking!
About 20 years ago there was an incorrect version of the Bell 206 manual that said LTE was caused by a stalled tail rotor. It was the cause, we believe, of a film crew coming to grief over the 1984 City to Surf Fun Run in Sydney. About 10,000 mad keen runners watched the Bell 206 enter LTE and plunge into a school yard. The pilot did what he was taught and in accordance with the handbook. It took about nine seconds to come down 1,000 feet. (Saturday - kids were at home).
Manual (later withdrawn) stated the way you unstall any aerofoil is to is reduce the pitch, or angle of attack.
Now the only way to reduce pitch on the tail rotor is to use right pedal. Problem is you already have an uncommanded right yaw, and now the manual suggests you correct the situation by adding right pedal? This increases the spin even further, and loss of control may occur.
Later research showed that when you are spun around the mast (to the right) your loose shoulder harness allows you to be thrown forward in your seat. Your bum is anchored by the lap seat belt, and your upper body will lean forward. Net result is your bum slides a little under the lap belt as your shoulders move forward; just enough to pull your thigh/leg/foot aft sufficiently to reduce left pedal, and the spin is slower to recover – or not at all.
You need “metal to metal” to stop the spin in about 90 degrees in the Bell 206 family.
Lesson is to always to move your pedals towards you as your strap in, then lean forward and ensure you actually get full left pedal travel.
To reassure the Robbie drivers, Frank was a tail rotor specialist before he made the Robbies, and he took care to design this trait out of the design. However it can happen in any helicopter!
Want to try and get it – just fly into wind, then do a steep descending right hand turn to a downwind quickstop! A Bell no no, and a Robbie also.
So ends the sermon……….
About 20 years ago there was an incorrect version of the Bell 206 manual that said LTE was caused by a stalled tail rotor. It was the cause, we believe, of a film crew coming to grief over the 1984 City to Surf Fun Run in Sydney. About 10,000 mad keen runners watched the Bell 206 enter LTE and plunge into a school yard. The pilot did what he was taught and in accordance with the handbook. It took about nine seconds to come down 1,000 feet. (Saturday - kids were at home).
Manual (later withdrawn) stated the way you unstall any aerofoil is to is reduce the pitch, or angle of attack.
Now the only way to reduce pitch on the tail rotor is to use right pedal. Problem is you already have an uncommanded right yaw, and now the manual suggests you correct the situation by adding right pedal? This increases the spin even further, and loss of control may occur.
Later research showed that when you are spun around the mast (to the right) your loose shoulder harness allows you to be thrown forward in your seat. Your bum is anchored by the lap seat belt, and your upper body will lean forward. Net result is your bum slides a little under the lap belt as your shoulders move forward; just enough to pull your thigh/leg/foot aft sufficiently to reduce left pedal, and the spin is slower to recover – or not at all.
You need “metal to metal” to stop the spin in about 90 degrees in the Bell 206 family.
Lesson is to always to move your pedals towards you as your strap in, then lean forward and ensure you actually get full left pedal travel.
To reassure the Robbie drivers, Frank was a tail rotor specialist before he made the Robbies, and he took care to design this trait out of the design. However it can happen in any helicopter!
Want to try and get it – just fly into wind, then do a steep descending right hand turn to a downwind quickstop! A Bell no no, and a Robbie also.
So ends the sermon……….
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When did you solo?
Hi,
Just Interested to those people who have done there JAA PPL on the R22!
How many hours had you pilots had before you did your first solo?
Just Interested to those people who have done there JAA PPL on the R22!
How many hours had you pilots had before you did your first solo?
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
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a) most of the PPLs here their training on the R22!
b) anything from 5 hours to 50! There was a thread on it recently; the upshot of which is that everyone is different and that, essentially, it mean diddly-squat about your abilities at the end!
Cheers
Whirls
b) anything from 5 hours to 50! There was a thread on it recently; the upshot of which is that everyone is different and that, essentially, it mean diddly-squat about your abilities at the end!
Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
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Sean,
Reading between the lines (and possibly getting it wrong), I suspect you may either be concerned about your own aptitude, or thinking your instructor is holding you back. Don't worry! As my fellow Whirly said, the rate at which people learn has diddly-squat (I like that word, Whirlygig) to do with how good a pilot you'll be in the end. And hours to first solo depends on weather conditions, type of airfield, etc etc...and probably most of all on how experienced and capable of dealing with emergencies your instructor wants you to be before he lets you loose alone in about the twitchiest, most unforgiving helicopter there is. Relax and enjoy your training!
Reading between the lines (and possibly getting it wrong), I suspect you may either be concerned about your own aptitude, or thinking your instructor is holding you back. Don't worry! As my fellow Whirly said, the rate at which people learn has diddly-squat (I like that word, Whirlygig) to do with how good a pilot you'll be in the end. And hours to first solo depends on weather conditions, type of airfield, etc etc...and probably most of all on how experienced and capable of dealing with emergencies your instructor wants you to be before he lets you loose alone in about the twitchiest, most unforgiving helicopter there is. Relax and enjoy your training!
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Hi all,
minimum time for solo 20hrs - period.
Anything else is to early for my taste - especially in a R-22.
Also this avoids "instructor-competitions" about who solos students faster (had that happen at my airplane-solo, 3.7 hrs, stupid, ....).
My experience with R-22 students is, that they all need some serious time to get the hang on a real auto-entry, not the regular Robinson-training auto-entry (lower collective, stabilize auto, slightly reduce rpm, ...) - but the real one (power-loss, react, entry, stabilize)
On a solo, all I care for is, that a student is able to enter and stabilize an auto, SHOULD the incredible happen and he really looses power on the solo.
You can survive a 1300 fpm impact, and most likely they do SOMETHING at the bottom of the auto anyway.
The most dangerous part is to get caught and NOT react, stall and come down at 8000 fpm (see actual video at the safety-course, the English R-22, carb-ice, power-loss, stalled rotor).
You have a hard time to get a R-22 0-hr student to that point in just 20 hrs....
3top
minimum time for solo 20hrs - period.
Anything else is to early for my taste - especially in a R-22.
Also this avoids "instructor-competitions" about who solos students faster (had that happen at my airplane-solo, 3.7 hrs, stupid, ....).
My experience with R-22 students is, that they all need some serious time to get the hang on a real auto-entry, not the regular Robinson-training auto-entry (lower collective, stabilize auto, slightly reduce rpm, ...) - but the real one (power-loss, react, entry, stabilize)
On a solo, all I care for is, that a student is able to enter and stabilize an auto, SHOULD the incredible happen and he really looses power on the solo.
You can survive a 1300 fpm impact, and most likely they do SOMETHING at the bottom of the auto anyway.
The most dangerous part is to get caught and NOT react, stall and come down at 8000 fpm (see actual video at the safety-course, the English R-22, carb-ice, power-loss, stalled rotor).
You have a hard time to get a R-22 0-hr student to that point in just 20 hrs....
3top
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When we changed from Bell 47's to R22's for integrated courses at a commercial school, we found the time to solo wasn't any different at about 12 hours. Indeed the time for readiness for solo was actually slightly less due to the excellent lever/throttle correllation, and even more so when governors were fitted.The 12 hours was an artificial minimum set to reflect more time given to EOL's.
References to R22's being twitchy and unforgiving is not helpful to students to whom confidence is paramount. R22's are unforgiving of poor instruction by instructors who lack confidence themselves and revert to the "do not do this or that, it is dangerous" method.
The basic principal should be that all techniques within the flight envelope and permitted by the flight manual (including EOL's) should be taught and the student should be happy that he/she can handle the unusual without continuous dire warnings about death and destruction which is hardly conducive to a calm and confident approach
R22's also require a disciplined approach to checks and procedures, particularly with reference to carb heat. As our students transitioned directly to S61's and Super Pumas without problems, it must have something going for it as an instructional tool.
References to R22's being twitchy and unforgiving is not helpful to students to whom confidence is paramount. R22's are unforgiving of poor instruction by instructors who lack confidence themselves and revert to the "do not do this or that, it is dangerous" method.
The basic principal should be that all techniques within the flight envelope and permitted by the flight manual (including EOL's) should be taught and the student should be happy that he/she can handle the unusual without continuous dire warnings about death and destruction which is hardly conducive to a calm and confident approach
R22's also require a disciplined approach to checks and procedures, particularly with reference to carb heat. As our students transitioned directly to S61's and Super Pumas without problems, it must have something going for it as an instructional tool.
The Original Whirly
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References to R22's being twitchy and unforgiving is not helpful to students to whom confidence is paramount.
I'm not saying you're completely wrong, and maybe there are better ways of generating confidence. But I don't think you can safely generalise about students in that way
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A mysterious problem, help please
Funny one this,
Instructing yesterday, radio on 123.6, change frequency to transmit on 129.725 and as I transmit low rotor horn and light come on. No yaw and RPM needle stable.
Transmit again, same thing. Try different freqencies and same happens down to 124 or so up to 132.
Pull Low rotor CB before transmitting and no horn, pop the CB in immediately after transmitting, to continue flight.
Back on the ground no sign of problem on any frequency, then later on another flight in the circuit on 122.2 same thing happens.
Ideas folks?
Instructing yesterday, radio on 123.6, change frequency to transmit on 129.725 and as I transmit low rotor horn and light come on. No yaw and RPM needle stable.
Transmit again, same thing. Try different freqencies and same happens down to 124 or so up to 132.
Pull Low rotor CB before transmitting and no horn, pop the CB in immediately after transmitting, to continue flight.
Back on the ground no sign of problem on any frequency, then later on another flight in the circuit on 122.2 same thing happens.
Ideas folks?
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Mysterious Problem
Jemax,
Had that one long time ago in an old R22 Beta, it sure gets your attention the first time it happens eh?
Especially if you are solo, or low on experience at the time.... I think it is some sort of interference from the radio, somehow activates the low RPM horn and light, cant remenber how we solved it at the time other then to pull the CB or dont use those frequencies, not very helpful I know, but if you get your avionics man to have a look, im sure he will be able to solve it. I am guessing it was an R22? if so how old is it?
Regards,
BC
Had that one long time ago in an old R22 Beta, it sure gets your attention the first time it happens eh?
Especially if you are solo, or low on experience at the time.... I think it is some sort of interference from the radio, somehow activates the low RPM horn and light, cant remenber how we solved it at the time other then to pull the CB or dont use those frequencies, not very helpful I know, but if you get your avionics man to have a look, im sure he will be able to solve it. I am guessing it was an R22? if so how old is it?Regards,
BC
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Somewhere in the looms there is probably a crack in the insulation allowing induction from the radio transmit, probably worse when there is a bit of damp. A sod to locate. We had a few such problems way back, even when our R22B's were new. The electronics guy's were a bit sniffy about some of the Robinson cable work.
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Time to solo
Yep, rushing students to solo early to benifit their and their instructors egos is not a good thing.
Personally, speaking as someone who flew into cloud on my third solo, I think it is crazy that students are sent solo without even an introduction to instrument flying, especially the AH. I was fortunate enough to drop out of the cloud with only about 15deg bank, but it could have been very different.......
I am not sure who s**t himself more, me or the spectating instructor.....
Personally, speaking as someone who flew into cloud on my third solo, I think it is crazy that students are sent solo without even an introduction to instrument flying, especially the AH. I was fortunate enough to drop out of the cloud with only about 15deg bank, but it could have been very different.......
I am not sure who s**t himself more, me or the spectating instructor.....
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I am troubled that such a simple aircraft has so many doubtful conditions that this thread has ballooned into a huge treasure of information.
Firstly, I am not a great fan of the R22 for I see in it's design that it was superbly engineered for 'private transport', for the private owner to use for pleasure or his private work. However, training organisations have it on their inventory and believe that it is agood training machine. I beg to differ and I will now duck down behind the bomb proof wall and watch the bullets fly. The R44 is a very different beast and the rumour that R22 production could cease in favour of more R44's sounds good to me.
Secondly, as far as the instructors ability to train a student will very much depend, not on finite lying skills but on the experience and depth of knowledge that an instructor should have before taking up instructing. This then would ensure that if confidence in the airworthyness of the helicopter is required then it is the ability of the instructor to demonstrate the safety aspects in such a manner that the student 'learns' the correct techniques and procedures which will ensure safety at all stages of flight.
Finally, some of the previous comments above cause me concern that there are some instructors lacking certain teaching skills. And to this end not providing the very best for the student under their guidance. I am ducking down behind that wall again as I know there are some factions who are out there instructing who are ardent that the R22 is the best training machine and their minds will never accept the fact that there are better machines out there which have a proven record as trainers. These instructors perhaps do not have that depth of knowledge pertinent to their employ.
Firstly, I am not a great fan of the R22 for I see in it's design that it was superbly engineered for 'private transport', for the private owner to use for pleasure or his private work. However, training organisations have it on their inventory and believe that it is agood training machine. I beg to differ and I will now duck down behind the bomb proof wall and watch the bullets fly. The R44 is a very different beast and the rumour that R22 production could cease in favour of more R44's sounds good to me.
Secondly, as far as the instructors ability to train a student will very much depend, not on finite lying skills but on the experience and depth of knowledge that an instructor should have before taking up instructing. This then would ensure that if confidence in the airworthyness of the helicopter is required then it is the ability of the instructor to demonstrate the safety aspects in such a manner that the student 'learns' the correct techniques and procedures which will ensure safety at all stages of flight.
Finally, some of the previous comments above cause me concern that there are some instructors lacking certain teaching skills. And to this end not providing the very best for the student under their guidance. I am ducking down behind that wall again as I know there are some factions who are out there instructing who are ardent that the R22 is the best training machine and their minds will never accept the fact that there are better machines out there which have a proven record as trainers. These instructors perhaps do not have that depth of knowledge pertinent to their employ.