R22 Corner
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Looks like some information on the crash is contained in the latest recommendation issued by the ATSB as a result of this accident.
The recommendation can be found here:ATSB Recommendation R20030186
Also, CASA issued another amendment to their AD on Friday. It can be found here: CASA AD/R22/31 Amendment 8
TinKicker
The recommendation can be found here:ATSB Recommendation R20030186
Also, CASA issued another amendment to their AD on Friday. It can be found here: CASA AD/R22/31 Amendment 8
TinKicker
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amendment 8 is out on the r22 blades and now includes a sliding scale relative to the blades life for their removal. the advice is to keep your old blades in case they lift the restrictions in the future.
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Rotaryman
Calm Down!
As someone else has already suggested - The debate (and my posting) had moved on from the bankstown crash to a crash in the USA.
My comments were in response to Mr. Z's post about a crash in Washington state. The description of the crash site as stated by L.Z. was - No one saw the event and the fragments of helicopter and blades were such that many explanations for the crash were feasable.
Mr. Z. had stated this provided further unequivocal evidence that R22 blades were falling apart even when NOT used in mustering, NOT beyond their life and flown sedately.
My response was limited to that crash and not encompassing any other crash. At no time did I direct ANY of my comments at the people involved in the Sydney crash.
My point was the problem and its management is difficult and complex and is not helped by people throwing in red herrings.
Lu Zuckerman
Would you care to reread and perhaps correct your own post.
Quote:
"The helicopter was destroyed during aloss of control and collision with terrain at Tulalip, Washington.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go back and re read the NTSB report.
This implies that the helicopter was in controlled flight and it was not a dynamic rollover."
Now was it "controlled" or "loss of control"?
It does not imply any of the things you state.
It simply says what it says. At some point there was a loss of control and at some point it impacted terrain.
Dynamic roll-over can happen on the ground, in the hover, while taxi-ing. Any of which results in collision with terrain.
But really; we're getting pointlessly picky and wasting band space.
The point is: This accident, as reported in the NTSB report, doesn't add anything to the subject of blade seperation in machines with a history of mustering and under recording of blade life. THAT is the problem at hand which needs sorting out.
Calm Down!
As someone else has already suggested - The debate (and my posting) had moved on from the bankstown crash to a crash in the USA.
My comments were in response to Mr. Z's post about a crash in Washington state. The description of the crash site as stated by L.Z. was - No one saw the event and the fragments of helicopter and blades were such that many explanations for the crash were feasable.
Mr. Z. had stated this provided further unequivocal evidence that R22 blades were falling apart even when NOT used in mustering, NOT beyond their life and flown sedately.
My response was limited to that crash and not encompassing any other crash. At no time did I direct ANY of my comments at the people involved in the Sydney crash.
My point was the problem and its management is difficult and complex and is not helped by people throwing in red herrings.
Lu Zuckerman
Would you care to reread and perhaps correct your own post.
Quote:
"The helicopter was destroyed during aloss of control and collision with terrain at Tulalip, Washington.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go back and re read the NTSB report.
This implies that the helicopter was in controlled flight and it was not a dynamic rollover."
Now was it "controlled" or "loss of control"?
It does not imply any of the things you state.
It simply says what it says. At some point there was a loss of control and at some point it impacted terrain.
Dynamic roll-over can happen on the ground, in the hover, while taxi-ing. Any of which results in collision with terrain.
But really; we're getting pointlessly picky and wasting band space.
The point is: This accident, as reported in the NTSB report, doesn't add anything to the subject of blade seperation in machines with a history of mustering and under recording of blade life. THAT is the problem at hand which needs sorting out.
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Love 'em or hate 'em ......
Robinson has just delivered its 5,000th helicopter.
Since its first R22 in October 1979, Robinson has produced 3,489 R22 and 1,511 R44 helicopters, including 171 R44 Raven IIs.
The 5,000th helicopter, an R44 Raven II, was shipped to National Airways Corporation (NAC) of Lanseria, South Africa - NAC’s 75th Robinson helicopter.
Robinson now produces 9.5 helicopters a week with an 11 helicopter-per-week goal by the end of October.
Since its first R22 in October 1979, Robinson has produced 3,489 R22 and 1,511 R44 helicopters, including 171 R44 Raven IIs.
The 5,000th helicopter, an R44 Raven II, was shipped to National Airways Corporation (NAC) of Lanseria, South Africa - NAC’s 75th Robinson helicopter.
Robinson now produces 9.5 helicopters a week with an 11 helicopter-per-week goal by the end of October.
Last edited by Heliport; 4th Oct 2003 at 00:54.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I love em.......... Particularly suited to my sort of work.
Diethelm, mate, you took the words outta me mouth. Cant wait until it happens.
Diethelm, mate, you took the words outta me mouth. Cant wait until it happens.
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The old, bald guys may not like it, but an enormous number of today's helo pilots started on Robbos and probably stayed on them for a while after that too. Over the last twenty-something years, that builds a lot more acceptance than any amount of advertising or statistics. Of course they know about the lightweight rotor, but...that was my first, you know?
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Nr Fairy
That link is about as useful as a bacon buttie in a synagogue
Now put yourself in Frank's shoes.
Production of the R22 is down to about 2 a week. [based on comparing MSNs of G- reg R22s recently and 12 months ago]
Production of the R44 will be 9 a week by the end of October. [stated target is 11 heli pcm by that date, take off the 2 R22s a week as above]
OK, so the R44 will bring in a lot more money due to being a bigger craft (so financially FR will not worry), but the R22 seems to have reached saturation point.
The whole idea of the R22 was that it was an entry point to the market for the private owner (yes, Frank's target market was NOT flight schools). So, should he be worried that his "baby" is losing interest? What alternatives are there? The Enstrom is no price comparison, and a couple of big Schweizer operators I spoke to at Helitech were in discussion with SAC about bringing prices down (purchase, parts etc) because they were just making themselves uncompetitive.
Should Frank be worried?
That link is about as useful as a bacon buttie in a synagogue
Now put yourself in Frank's shoes.
Production of the R22 is down to about 2 a week. [based on comparing MSNs of G- reg R22s recently and 12 months ago]
Production of the R44 will be 9 a week by the end of October. [stated target is 11 heli pcm by that date, take off the 2 R22s a week as above]
OK, so the R44 will bring in a lot more money due to being a bigger craft (so financially FR will not worry), but the R22 seems to have reached saturation point.
The whole idea of the R22 was that it was an entry point to the market for the private owner (yes, Frank's target market was NOT flight schools). So, should he be worried that his "baby" is losing interest? What alternatives are there? The Enstrom is no price comparison, and a couple of big Schweizer operators I spoke to at Helitech were in discussion with SAC about bringing prices down (purchase, parts etc) because they were just making themselves uncompetitive.
Should Frank be worried?
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T-bar cyclic
Something happened with the R22 cyclic on my first lesson in the Robinson and I am not sure what it was.
We were just cruising along without any problem when I noticed the helo was rolling to the left, slowly, even though I was applying right cyclic.
I thought the control had failed but the instructor took the cyclic and brought it back to level.
The instructor didn't say anthing to me but I was stunned because I never lost control in level flight before and wondered what had happened. This is what I think may have happened.
I have about 30 years in fixed wing with control yokes that are a bit like the R22 T-bar only smaller and upside down (the hand holds point up on a Cessna and down on the R22). My theory is this: instinctively I was turning the R22 yoke instead of moving the whole thing to the right as needed, so of course nothing happened when I lowered the grip as I would normally do in a cessna for right roll.
My instructor had no fixed wing time (only R22) and didn't know of how a Cessna is flown. In a Cessna (or Cherokee etc.) the pilot can rest his arm on the armrest and apply roll with up and down on the side of the yoke.
In the R22 the pilot can rest his hand on the leg and apply roll with side to side movement but a fixed wing pilot might revert to up and down pressure in some situations.
I also fly fixed wing aircraft with normal stick controls between the legs and never have any problem converting from moving the lever side to side instead of up and down because the stick doesn't hinge up and down. But the R22 T-stick DOES hinge like a Cessna yoke.
I read about an airline pilot that lost control of a R22 in cruise and wonder if the design of the T-stick could have been a factor because of his mostly fixed wing yoke experience.
Has anybody thought of this possible problem with converting fixed wing pilots to the R22 cyclic?
We were just cruising along without any problem when I noticed the helo was rolling to the left, slowly, even though I was applying right cyclic.
I thought the control had failed but the instructor took the cyclic and brought it back to level.
The instructor didn't say anthing to me but I was stunned because I never lost control in level flight before and wondered what had happened. This is what I think may have happened.
I have about 30 years in fixed wing with control yokes that are a bit like the R22 T-bar only smaller and upside down (the hand holds point up on a Cessna and down on the R22). My theory is this: instinctively I was turning the R22 yoke instead of moving the whole thing to the right as needed, so of course nothing happened when I lowered the grip as I would normally do in a cessna for right roll.
My instructor had no fixed wing time (only R22) and didn't know of how a Cessna is flown. In a Cessna (or Cherokee etc.) the pilot can rest his arm on the armrest and apply roll with up and down on the side of the yoke.
In the R22 the pilot can rest his hand on the leg and apply roll with side to side movement but a fixed wing pilot might revert to up and down pressure in some situations.
I also fly fixed wing aircraft with normal stick controls between the legs and never have any problem converting from moving the lever side to side instead of up and down because the stick doesn't hinge up and down. But the R22 T-stick DOES hinge like a Cessna yoke.
I read about an airline pilot that lost control of a R22 in cruise and wonder if the design of the T-stick could have been a factor because of his mostly fixed wing yoke experience.
Has anybody thought of this possible problem with converting fixed wing pilots to the R22 cyclic?
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The Revolution Voyager (the 2 seat version of the ill-fated Mini 500) had a T bar sytem as well. They only made one prototype before the company went bust but inside it looked just like an R22 (at least from the photos I saw.)
I was a bit worried about how easy the T-Bar system would be to use when I was preparing for my first lesson about 6 years ago. Once I had about two minutes at the controls I didn't notice any problems. Now I find getting into anything with a conventional cyclic seems awkward and uncomfortable. Also having the floor space clear in front of the passenger is very useful. You know the Pax isn't going to bump, lean on it or move it at some critical time. Also frees up floor space for other stuff if needed.
I agree with everyone about the comments on the doors. Most times that I have taken people there has been concerned looks as the gap widens and the wind rushes past their left ear. If anything needs fixing its the doors.
I was a bit worried about how easy the T-Bar system would be to use when I was preparing for my first lesson about 6 years ago. Once I had about two minutes at the controls I didn't notice any problems. Now I find getting into anything with a conventional cyclic seems awkward and uncomfortable. Also having the floor space clear in front of the passenger is very useful. You know the Pax isn't going to bump, lean on it or move it at some critical time. Also frees up floor space for other stuff if needed.
I agree with everyone about the comments on the doors. Most times that I have taken people there has been concerned looks as the gap widens and the wind rushes past their left ear. If anything needs fixing its the doors.
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Saw this on NAC website, a very interesting Power Point show about SMA engines. Mr. Robinson might want to have them in his helicopters.
http://www.nac.co.za/Library/SMA.zip
The file is about 6Mb in size.
Heli-Ice
http://www.nac.co.za/Library/SMA.zip
The file is about 6Mb in size.
Heli-Ice
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I bet RHC is going to be flat out in the rotor department for a while with the new CASA directives........ apparently there is already a three month waiting list.
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Duals and passengers
RobboRider
To give you the "floor space" you want infront of your passenger, should you not be removing the dual controlls?
I know its not illegal to fly with a pax and duals aslong as they have been breefed, but does it not make sence to have them removed? Just remember-you need maintenance authority to remove most flight controlls
To give you the "floor space" you want infront of your passenger, should you not be removing the dual controlls?
I know its not illegal to fly with a pax and duals aslong as they have been breefed, but does it not make sence to have them removed? Just remember-you need maintenance authority to remove most flight controlls
Just try removing the "quick remove" duals from an AS350 or EC120 - it is a serious job, engineer required. The clear-floor method of R22 cyclic design is pretty good, especially for females in skirts wanting to sit in the front. No need to avert one's eyes as they clamber around the cyclic with their knickers on display.
I did have a Japanese student who was so small that his legs were straight out to reach the pedals and therefore he couldn't get the tiller handle down to his knee. Simply fixed - he went to K-Mart and bought a rubber booster seat. Probably not legal, but it worked.
For the gaping R22 door problem, it is a simple fix. Get the engineer to fix another of those clip thingys that is already on the bottom of the door, to the top of the door. Works a charm, stops the cold winter winds and keeps the tense pax untense.
I did have a Japanese student who was so small that his legs were straight out to reach the pedals and therefore he couldn't get the tiller handle down to his knee. Simply fixed - he went to K-Mart and bought a rubber booster seat. Probably not legal, but it worked.
For the gaping R22 door problem, it is a simple fix. Get the engineer to fix another of those clip thingys that is already on the bottom of the door, to the top of the door. Works a charm, stops the cold winter winds and keeps the tense pax untense.
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Ascend Charlie:
Mine doesn't have any clip-thingyies on the rear edge only the front lower edge. The place it opens up is along the back edge just beside the pax left ear. The door is firmly closed at zero speed but in forward flight the drop in pressure around the body sucks the door outwards along the back edge.
I have thought about some sort of clip but can't see how to do it while still maintaining simple easy opening for rapid egress if I had a bingle. I'm sure someone with a few more active and unscrambled neurones than I have could come up with something.
Dynamic Component:
You have it one
Most of the easy remove systems I've seen are anything but easy.
Mine doesn't have any clip-thingyies on the rear edge only the front lower edge. The place it opens up is along the back edge just beside the pax left ear. The door is firmly closed at zero speed but in forward flight the drop in pressure around the body sucks the door outwards along the back edge.
I have thought about some sort of clip but can't see how to do it while still maintaining simple easy opening for rapid egress if I had a bingle. I'm sure someone with a few more active and unscrambled neurones than I have could come up with something.
Dynamic Component:
You have it one
Most of the easy remove systems I've seen are anything but easy.
Iconoclast
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Here is a suggestion
I do not know if this requires an STC or any other official permission but here is my suggestion. On many light aircraft and on some helicopters there are Plexiglas© devices that are installed in the windows. They are designed to scoop up ram air for ventilation inside the cockpit area. In your case, they could be rotated to allow air to flow out of the cockpit thus reducing the differential pressure that causes the doors to move outward.
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R22 Cyclic, Doors, & Other Items...
Most of my time has been in the R22, but I've spent a few hours in the B47 and a couple hours in the B2B. I honestly didn't notice any difference in handling - just a slight change in where to rest my arm. In contrast, I found the collectives in the B47/B2B a bit lower than expected (you really have to push the collective down during landings, autos, etc).
Regarding door modifications for ventilation, here is a company that has approved systems (click on Robinson)...
http://www.tech-tool.com/
If you REALLY want a conventional cyclic in a Robinson, here are some resources...
http://www.helicopterpilotsguide.com/Unusual.html
Shows R22 with Full View Doors, "Conventional" Cyclic Conversion, Slingload Hook (don't ask), Remote Oil Filter Kit, Spray Equipment, and Fuselage Mounted Pods. Cyclic pictures follow:
Regarding door modifications for ventilation, here is a company that has approved systems (click on Robinson)...
http://www.tech-tool.com/
If you REALLY want a conventional cyclic in a Robinson, here are some resources...
http://www.helicopterpilotsguide.com/Unusual.html
Shows R22 with Full View Doors, "Conventional" Cyclic Conversion, Slingload Hook (don't ask), Remote Oil Filter Kit, Spray Equipment, and Fuselage Mounted Pods. Cyclic pictures follow:
Last edited by RDRickster; 7th Oct 2003 at 00:07.
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Being 6'6" I've only encountered one problem with the T bar and that is on slope landings. If I get anyone of any height next to me and try and teach them slopes the cyclic motion moves something like, Student moves cyclic till it hits his leg, moves cyclic up to clear his leg and go on the left of mine, goes over his leg and moves it back down. Makes slope landings even more complex and not much fun. Otherwise I love it, especially as an instructor except for when the handle covers my line of sight to the CAT gauge.