Flying Ladies

[the coyote]

Not long ago I was on a Qantas 747-400 and the Captain was a woman. I reckon that's great and about time too.

I dig women, always have, always will. And I admire the fact that despite all the d1ck swingers and ego's in our industry they persevere and succeed, and no doubt having to unfortunately endure more crap than us blokes ever did.

I reckon men that have a problem with them, have just that, a problem.

Attitude and ability, I checked the dictionary and I don't think its gender specific!

Go the Chicks, should be more of them in our game.

[spinwing]

... Not long ago I read with interest a story about an A10 pilot whose callsign was "KC".

Said pilot was out in the boonies of Iraq helping out a few grunts on the ground with a problem (?) ... in the process was damn near shredded by ground fire ..... did a VERY good job of flying a very badly disabled a/c back to base safely (?).

Well I'd buy that pilot a drink or three ANYTIME!

Go "Killer Chick" (Capt. Kim Campbell USAF). !!!

I don't think any of the grunts on the ground she was helping out would have told her to go back to the kitchen!!!

[mikesmith]

I am hoping that something terrible happens to this entire subject and string. Anyone from outside our profession reading the contents would have to seriously consider why licences are granted to people with such twisted thinking. Can we just never have a discussion like this ever again ?
It's not amusing - it's awful.

[NIGINOO]

In view of the number of people who have posted on this thread and the varied answers they have given both in favour of, and agianst women in aviation. whats the problem in discussing it. Its a fact of life. Men will always hold strong veiws about women, as equally the women do about men. To suggest any so called outsiders might find this discussion on Prune as a reason to doubt the intelligence of pilots is rediculous. This is the real world. In the real world a chap might spout off about women to other men, but when faced with a good looking lady flying instructor he is the perfect gent Yes maam, No maam Im not telling you Maam, but i admire your skills and id still like to get in your pants. Loosen up a bit Mike.

[Whirlygig]

Caveat emptor - Whirly's been darn the pub where she belongs!

I am hoping that something terrible happens to this entire subject and string.

....and your point is?

The original question referred to women pilots and the effect that their menstruation cycle might have on their flying.

I'm not sure which Mike Smith you are but either way, you are, or have been married so ought to have some idea of what is being got at here.

Yes, there are some crass comments on here but there are also many valid points and if you can realize some insight from any post that has been written here, then some good has been achieved.

On this thread, there has been demonstrated the distaff point of view, sexism, egalitarianism and downright-bloody-p1ss-taking! So? Why should this thread not exist? It's well known that most of the inhabitants of Rotorheads do not venture outside this forum, so why not have a bit of fun between the genders and maybe, just maybe, you might learn something!

Cheers

Whirlygig

NIGINOO - what about ugly, lady pilots???? Are we really on a hiding to nothing? Or perhaps (I'm hoping here), we are all beautiful in your eyes!



edited - just read your profile, I know which Mike Smith you are and...er...we have met!!

[NIGINOO]

Whilygig. I can tell even from the way you handle words, you are in command I think I love you!

[Whirlygig]

Oooo NIGINOO,

Can I go all slushy-girly now?? Or will I burst my bubble?

[NIGINOO]

Having gone all slushy on me is just how i------------- o bugger the wifes just looked over my shoulder and read this. Gotta go, I remain your ever obedient servant maam. Ni Night.

[Thomas coupling]

SASless: you silly old sod...don't you get it:
the PILOT that night did a fantastic job fighting that helo and bringing it home. What i was trying to drive home was that its got absolutley NOTHING to do with the fact that the pilot was a bloody female

Whirlygig / niginoo, you both said it all. This whole thread is just a laugh...no-one out there who has commented, really believes that women helo drivers are any better/worse than blokey helo drivers. Those days have long gone.

[If anyone out there genuinely believes there is a difference...sorry guys, you've been left behind, the dinosaur era left ages ago. ]

This sort of 'banter' makes the world go round...provided the recipients haven't been offended, and that's where to draw the line.

Need a cup of tea now....run along whirly

[Whirlygig]

There are excellent, good, fair, poor, and bad woman pilots just as there are excellent, good, fair, poor, and bad male pilots.Period

NOTHING to do with the fact that the pilot was a bloody female

Have you lot been to "pun" school?

Need a cup of tea now....run along whirly

Thomas, if, at this time of night, you want a cup of tea, you can make it yourself; I only do red wine or G&Ts at this hour!

On serious note, from an operational point of view, I would be interested to know about the logistics, say, of an 8-hour pipe-line job.

I don't imagine that there is anyone out there, male or female, who can last for 8 hours without a wee. So what do you do? OK, put down somewhere, squat behind the JetRanger and return to the cockpit feeling refreshed! But, at certain times, with a lady pilot (or rather a Whirlygig-type pilot), these occasions might be slightly more frequent than otherwise budgeted. Whaddya do? I've heard about fighter pilots wearing nappies but I think there is a limit - just how good is TenaLady?

I am not taking the p1ss here; I really would like to know. What about North Sea Ops?

There are differences between men and women; they don't affect piloting abilities but I know that I can just about reach to tie down the rotor blades on a JetRanger; can't do a Squirrel. I have tried and it was laughable. What can I do if I am so short I can't reach. S'pose I do what I've always done; find a strapping young man!

So guys, thanks for the support. I hope that some of the little things that matter to women pilots will become common place e.g. harnesses that will fit someone who is 5'4" but with a, shall we say thorax circumference, measurement equalling that of a BIG bloke! And flight suits that actually go IN at the waist etc.

Cheers

W

[spinwing]

Mmmmm

...dya think this thread would be considered "Internet Sex"???

.... the thought police might get us!

[SASless]

Whirly....

It is late at night....I have had enough Guinness to give me beer goggles....and at risk of incurring the wrath of Heliport.....somehow the image of a 5'4" slip of a thing looking for a strapping lad....well uh....can just see Whirly...coyly asking said Big Strapper...."want to tie me up young man?"

The fairer sex is at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to emergency dumps of excess tea....guess we can see the wisdom of skirts in that regard....however that being said....my advice to lady bush pilots...(oh that is getting too close to dangerous ground)...is to "watch out for the nettles!"

The key here one must assume is a gentleman knows when to avert his eyes.....and all gathered herein know that helicopter pilots are indeed that to a fault. Honest...really....no fooling!

[Whirlybird]

Anyone from outside our profession reading the contents would have to seriously consider why licences are granted to people with such twisted thinking. Can we just never have a discussion like this ever again ?
It's not amusing - it's awful.

I'm inclined to agree. Although I can see where Whirlygig, TC etc are coming from, and I check this thread at frequent intervals and post on it...far too much, in reality some of it is pretty horrendous. There is a difference between banter and genuine prejudice, and while TC might like to think the second no longer exists, it does, and most women can tell the difference. And I groan every time I see yet another thread on women pilots on PPRuNe - it's the same old stuff, and serious or otherwise, I can't really believe it's still around.

Yes, the original question on menstrual cycles was...possibly interesting. Where it's going now - where to pee - I know interests many people. When I walked round the coast of Britain that's what people wanted to know - where did I pee? Polly Vacher, in telling of crossing the Pacific on her round-the-world flight, brings the house down with her descriptions of trying to take off immersion suit, etc etc etc in mid-ocean. I don't get it, personally. In a helicopter, you land, and pee. And if someone wants to look - well, be my guest. I suppose it comes of a misspent youth travelling in countries where loos didn't exist, and if you wanted to answer the call of nature on a long bus journey across the desert, the driver stopped the bus and...well, there are no bushes in the desert. So I don't give a damn.

Anyway, Mike, I'm curious as to which Mike Smith you are...since all obvious details have been removed from your profile. But I suspect I know you.

[MightyGem]

Go "Killer Chick" (Capt. Kim Campbell USAF). !!!

Killer Chick's story HERE

[teeteringhead]

that's what people wanted to know - where did I pee?

.. and I understand that was very similar to one of King Geroge V's first questions to Lindbergh when he met him!

In a helicopter, you land, and pee.

..which is one thing that impressed me early in my rotary career. Flying in a Sioux from Ternhill in Shropshire to Valley in Anglesey against a headwind was taking forever - being overtaken by cars on the A5!

Instructor calls "I have control", lands in nearby field, gives me back control and runs behind nearest bush! Clearly I am going to feel at home in this world thought the young teetringhead..

Sorry for going off subject.

[moosp]

Maybe I missed it. In all the posts to this interesting thread, one question I would like to raise.

Where ARE all the women in Helicopter Aviation? What is it about the machine that seems to keep them away? If you are a commercial organisation and about 49% of your target market are un-interested, what are we doing wrong?

A few guesses.

1) Science is still taught as a boy thing at school.

2) Helicopter schools are usually in a small hut or a rugged hangar on the side of a wind blown field. Women's alternative of the golf club with its opulence and style is temptingly attractive.

3) Helicopters are (by daily social standards) noisy. Women are more sensitive to the discomfort of mechanical noise than men. For instance the sound of a passing Huey at full chat might well feel good to most men pilots, but to an average woman outside of aviation it is simply unpleasant noise.

4) Helicopter flying is one of the most tricky motor skills that you have to learn in the world of recreational activities, which might lead to a commercial future. My experience is that women self- select away from such activities thinking that they would not be good at it. They arrive with the baggage of a biased education.

5) There is still a perceived risk or danger to flying. This is also seen in ab initio training of fixed wing pilots where women are seen to avoid sport aviation. Few women are risk tolerant to the myths of this perception and so pursue recreation that is apparently (though not necessarily) safer.

6) The frequent exposure to testosterone overdose when the flying is over for the day. Of the many club and hotel bars that I have visited over the years with helicopter and fixed wing pilots, the company has been wonderful, but the ambience for a woman has varied from boring to threatening.

Any other ideas? As old Mao said, women hold up half the sky, but we cannot seem to interest them into beating it into submission...

[Whirlygig]

Moosp,

This will, I know, be controversial but I believe the reason that there are not many women aviators is that the majority of women are just not interested in it! Not necessarily any of your points 1 to 6 (although they might not help) but most women I know cannot understand why I would even want to fly, let alone fly a helicopter. Many can't understand why I ride a motorbike, drive a truck or play around with a Sunbeam Alpine.

I have had conversations along the lines of "You spend HOW MUCH per hour? You could buy a pair of Jimmy Choos for that!" Different priorities, definitely.

Most men I speak to envy me, most women don't understand! Personally, I have had more sexism from women than men not just in aviation but also my in respect of my degree (physics) and current career (accountancy). Most revolves around the "why haven't you got children" issue - apparently I am supposed to be unfulfilled and incomplete until I do have them!

However, for a lot of women, children are their top priority, if not only priority.

This may not go far in explaining Moosp's question; asking female pilots on here would not give true answers - maybe you should be asking women who are not pilots, why not? But, this is what I have found in my experience.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlybird]

moosp,

For a start, it's not just rotary aviation. 6% of PPLs are female, and 2% of commercial pilots. I believe the percentages are approximately the same for rotary aviation as for f/w. The same figures occur in other countries, and it's about the same percentage as it was many years ago.

So, why? Many people ask, I've read articles on the subject, but there are no clear answers. My 17 year old, female, flying-mad neighbour, training to be an ATC instructor and wanting to join the RAF, said to me, when asked about this: "It's just not a girlie thing, is it?" This proves nothing, except that the younger generation aren't changing - except she can join the RAF as a pilot and I couldn't have done.

But I digress. As an instructor, I talk to lots of young men hoping to take up flying helicopters...I do virtually all the trial lessons at the school I work for. Every time, I say to their wives, girlfriends, mothers, sisters etc: "Have you ever thought of giving it a go?". "Oh, I couldn't do it", is what most of them say. Not "I wouldn't want to", or "It's too dangerous" or "I don't have the time" but "I couldn't". I tend to point out that I did it, somewhat late in life (which gets over the "too old" excuses), and that I'm a fairly ordinary average woman, not a Superwoman...being 5ft 2ins helps; I just don't look like a Superwoman. But it doesn't work. Somehow, it's ingrained in their heads that they aren't clever enough or co-ordinated enough or something.

Now, it's wellknown that women tend to be underconfident generally. The reasons for this are probably social/environmental - women somehow pick up, along with mother's milk and kindergarten, that they're not supposed to be good at lots of things. And I think this is at the root of it. Yes, some of them aren't interested, as Whirlygig said. The social scene is a nightmare - I long ago just stopped going to most rotary social activities, to be honest. It's perceived as - and is - dangerous, but women ride horses, and they're more dangerous than helicopters; ask any insurance company. We may fly from wind-blown fields, but stables aren't particularly comfortable places...and dirtier and smellier than hangars.

moosp, I reckon you had it on the nail with the "biased education", from the word go, and that everything else stems from that. How did I avoid it? I didn't, completely. Every criticism knocks my confidence. Every so often I look at a helicopter and can't believe I can really fly it. Whatever I do, somewhere, deep down, I think I'll never really be any good. But I've always tended to do my own thing and not take any notice of what's the done thing, and maybe that's why I wanted to fly helicopters, so I do, and to hell with the other stuff.

Now, to take this thread even further in a more interesting direction, what can I do to convince these women - who tell me I'm wonderful but don't realise they're no different from me - that they too CAN do it?

[broadreach]

The real difference between men and women (not necessarily in that order)

80-90% of men don't feel threatened, can accept and welcome the variety of working with and competing against women. These men will ignore threads like this one which go absolutely nowhere.

10-20% of men will feel threatened - or see a good vehicle to revamp off that joke they heard last week - and will respond to a post with something derogatory, whether they believe it or not. The important thing is that it should be funny in their own minds.

10-20% of women will rise to the bait right from the start and when that 10-20% of men respond, will redouble their efforts to convince that 10-20% of men.

WhirlyG and WhirlyB, why in heaven's name do you bother?

[NIGINOO]

Broadreach. They bothered for probably the same reason that you have posted. They have put foreward many explanations as to the way women think and react to the male of the species. They stood up to the verbal barracking from some and gave some back.Let yourself go and give us you ten cents worth.