Becoming an Instructor & related FI questions
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Instrument Rating or Flight Instructor?
This is a question I was asked recently that I couldn't really answer:
If you had the money to either go through from CPL(H) and get the 300 hours to do the Instructor course or do the CPL(H) and then an Instrument rating; which would you do?
This is following the JAA route in the UK and hoping to work here in the end, ideally. The lad concerned is obviously trying to find the best way to get a job and build experience. However, I'm not up on the state of the job market, never mind what it will be like in a few months time. I know there are some Instructor jobs out there but I dont know how many for a FI(R). As for instrument rating jobs, I dont know of any others in the UK except in the North Sea and I dont know the state of things up there.
Anyway, what do you all reckon? I thought it may be of use to others out there too.
(Personally, if I had that kind of money to spend, I wouldn't be able to trust myself......)
If you had the money to either go through from CPL(H) and get the 300 hours to do the Instructor course or do the CPL(H) and then an Instrument rating; which would you do?
This is following the JAA route in the UK and hoping to work here in the end, ideally. The lad concerned is obviously trying to find the best way to get a job and build experience. However, I'm not up on the state of the job market, never mind what it will be like in a few months time. I know there are some Instructor jobs out there but I dont know how many for a FI(R). As for instrument rating jobs, I dont know of any others in the UK except in the North Sea and I dont know the state of things up there.
Anyway, what do you all reckon? I thought it may be of use to others out there too.
(Personally, if I had that kind of money to spend, I wouldn't be able to trust myself......)
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I would go for the IR. But then I have never been an instructor, so I do not know if that is a better step on the career ladder. I got an IR after my CPL and got a good job because of it. Good luck!!
HeliFirst
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Before 2000 there was little use of an IR onshore. (only Captains offshore North Sea) and then PPLs could Instruct!!
Now things have changed (JARS) so I would recommend having got a CPL get an IR first --- and an Instructors rating only if you want only to Instruct for life!!
Ask yourself what type of flying work do you want??
Now things have changed (JARS) so I would recommend having got a CPL get an IR first --- and an Instructors rating only if you want only to Instruct for life!!
Ask yourself what type of flying work do you want??
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Thanks for the advice fellas. By the look of the number of views, this thread is of wide interest.
If you were using an FI position to get hours, so that you could get do commercial work, then an IR, that would get you there straight away, would be preferable, I suppose.
I hadn't though about the p.i.c. time, not sure how they count co-pilot time. Have to look that up, good point!
If it would cost similar amounts to do either route, then I suppose it comes down to employment prospects. Are you more likely to get a job as an FI or as a CPL with an IR?
Thats still a question I can't answer, so lets ask the audience.......
If you were using an FI position to get hours, so that you could get do commercial work, then an IR, that would get you there straight away, would be preferable, I suppose.
I hadn't though about the p.i.c. time, not sure how they count co-pilot time. Have to look that up, good point!
If it would cost similar amounts to do either route, then I suppose it comes down to employment prospects. Are you more likely to get a job as an FI or as a CPL with an IR?
Thats still a question I can't answer, so lets ask the audience.......
Last edited by SEL; 2nd Feb 2004 at 07:28.
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I don't know about PAS being the best for IR training, but I do know that Bristow at Norwich provides excellant training on their 206, and that if they like you and there are vacancies then maybe, just maybe..............
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Please forgive my ignorance, but I do have some questions regarding the IR (in the UK)
1. How many hours are required on SE/ME helicopter?
2. Is there any possiblity to do these hours in an R22, or must this be an autopilot equipted helicopter?
3. Anyone willing to guess how much an IR-rating will cost?
4. How many hours is required after PPL H before one can commence IR-training?
thanks
1. How many hours are required on SE/ME helicopter?
2. Is there any possiblity to do these hours in an R22, or must this be an autopilot equipted helicopter?
3. Anyone willing to guess how much an IR-rating will cost?
4. How many hours is required after PPL H before one can commence IR-training?
thanks
Bravo99
Unfortunately P2 time does not count towards P1 time at all. There is however the possibility of flying P1 under supervision which is kind of P1 but not quite. The rules regarding P1/US have changed recently and I am not sure what they are but I have heard that now this can only be done with a TRE (TRI?) - Anyone know more?
Even though the IR training school in Norwich is excellent it seems very unlikely that someone will pick up work from Bristows. As mentioned before this is only a single engine IR which practiacally is of no use. They also do a combined course which (I imagine) will be quite expensive. Cabair is OK but if you have no Twin Squirrel time it can be very difficult to achieve the results in the minimum hours. The R22 does help but once you are on the twin it all starts to happen very fast and you better try to keep up because every extra hour will be charged at £800+ !!!!
Although at the moment recruitment in the North Sea is almost non existent it has to be said that all operators (Bristow, CHC and Bond) do sponsored people for their IR's if required, so there is some hope there.
I'd probably go for the FI and keep my ear to the ground with regards to sponsored IR's but then again things always change.
Woolf
Unfortunately P2 time does not count towards P1 time at all. There is however the possibility of flying P1 under supervision which is kind of P1 but not quite. The rules regarding P1/US have changed recently and I am not sure what they are but I have heard that now this can only be done with a TRE (TRI?) - Anyone know more?
Even though the IR training school in Norwich is excellent it seems very unlikely that someone will pick up work from Bristows. As mentioned before this is only a single engine IR which practiacally is of no use. They also do a combined course which (I imagine) will be quite expensive. Cabair is OK but if you have no Twin Squirrel time it can be very difficult to achieve the results in the minimum hours. The R22 does help but once you are on the twin it all starts to happen very fast and you better try to keep up because every extra hour will be charged at £800+ !!!!
Although at the moment recruitment in the North Sea is almost non existent it has to be said that all operators (Bristow, CHC and Bond) do sponsored people for their IR's if required, so there is some hope there.
I'd probably go for the FI and keep my ear to the ground with regards to sponsored IR's but then again things always change.
Woolf
Last edited by Woolf; 3rd Feb 2004 at 05:15.
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Apologies if I am wrong but, I do know that in the past some people who did their IR's at BHL at Norwich did get jobs at the end of the course. This was during a time of no recruitment. On the North Sea things change very quickly (from time to time!) and if you happen to be there then you might dip in.
All I'm saying is, is that its another option to paying £1000 per hour to do all your training on a twin, with the added bonus of meeting some great people, maybe getting a trip offshore (as a passenger), and maybe if your luck is in, news of jobs on the N. Sea before everybody else.
All I'm saying is, is that its another option to paying £1000 per hour to do all your training on a twin, with the added bonus of meeting some great people, maybe getting a trip offshore (as a passenger), and maybe if your luck is in, news of jobs on the N. Sea before everybody else.
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I have an IR and fly offshore in the UK, and formerly was a flight instructor, therefore claim a little knowledge of this subject.
the Instrument rating on a multi engine helicopter is now 55 hours, to include up to 20 or 40 hours in a procedural trainer or simulator depending on its class of approval.
also at least 10 hours in a IFR certified multi engine helicopter.
a single engine helicopter e.g R22 instrument trainer may well feature in the course to supplement the procedural trainer to achieve the 55 hours total.
other courses will differ in structure and feature more flight time in the IFR certified helicopter.
if you have a single engine IR al la bristows a further 5 hours instruction in multi engine helicopters is required plus a pre existing twin engine helicopter rating to make it a multi engine IR.
also prior to doing the IR 50 hours PIC cross country is required,
of which 10 hours must be in helicopters
SOURCE- LASORS 2004 part E.
this IR is going to cost the best part of £30k, there is no market for a low time CPL with IR in the UK except Bond, Bristow, CHC as P2 and none are currently recruiting. (bond have places sorted now I believe)
to me it depends how risk averse you are, the FI (R) rating will cost a little less (£23k approx, based on 115 hours building to go from 185 hours to 300 to do the FI course) and 30 hours for the FI course itself) but you will get work and enable your hours to build, annual pay not great though.
IR is high risk and is completely dependent on n.sea picking up.
if the money not a prob go for the IR first you could always do the FI course afterwards, if it is a prob do the FI course, at least you will be able to keep flying afterwards
basically FI = low risk, IR = high risk !!!
the Instrument rating on a multi engine helicopter is now 55 hours, to include up to 20 or 40 hours in a procedural trainer or simulator depending on its class of approval.
also at least 10 hours in a IFR certified multi engine helicopter.
a single engine helicopter e.g R22 instrument trainer may well feature in the course to supplement the procedural trainer to achieve the 55 hours total.
other courses will differ in structure and feature more flight time in the IFR certified helicopter.
if you have a single engine IR al la bristows a further 5 hours instruction in multi engine helicopters is required plus a pre existing twin engine helicopter rating to make it a multi engine IR.
also prior to doing the IR 50 hours PIC cross country is required,
of which 10 hours must be in helicopters
SOURCE- LASORS 2004 part E.
this IR is going to cost the best part of £30k, there is no market for a low time CPL with IR in the UK except Bond, Bristow, CHC as P2 and none are currently recruiting. (bond have places sorted now I believe)
to me it depends how risk averse you are, the FI (R) rating will cost a little less (£23k approx, based on 115 hours building to go from 185 hours to 300 to do the FI course) and 30 hours for the FI course itself) but you will get work and enable your hours to build, annual pay not great though.
IR is high risk and is completely dependent on n.sea picking up.
if the money not a prob go for the IR first you could always do the FI course afterwards, if it is a prob do the FI course, at least you will be able to keep flying afterwards
basically FI = low risk, IR = high risk !!!
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confused......
evening fling wingers.
as i apparently have more money than sense, i'm pricing up the cost of becoming a rotary instructor. currently i hold a cpl/ir(a) with the fi(a) all nicely stashed in my licence.
so my current understanding of what i need to do is as follows. could someone please let me know if i have missed anything out or completely lost the plot.
ok, to begin with get the ppl(h). according to lasors this can be yours for 39 hours tuition. fine. happy with that.
next i need to hour build up to 105 hours before i can start the cpl course. again no problems so far. looks like 66 hours banging round solo like a loon....
fine and dandy. next i need to do the theory side of things. according to lasors again, as i have completed all the atpl writtens for fixed wing, all i need to do is principles of flight as all the other exams are the same as the atpl(a) exams. that'll save a few squids....
then i start to get confused. now, because i hold a valid ir(a), the modular cpl(h) course is quoted as 20 hours vfr and 5 hours on instruments. so this takes me up to 130 hours on heli's.
i also need a night qualification training to gain a cpl. so the course is 5 hours (again a bonus of the ir). however, according to lasors, the nq can only be issued once you have logged 100 hours post ppl issue! now, for the cpl issue, only the training for a nq is required. do you still need the 100 hours post ppl aswell if you are applying for a cpl. if so then that puts a rather large spanner in the works. i suspect not, as i think this 100 hours is for people with a ppl wantig to fly at night, and a cpl has the night qualification embedded. however, if someone could clarify this i would be grateful.
anyway, back to the numbers. 39 (ppl) + 66 (hour building) + 25 (cpl training) + 5 (nq) = 135 hours.
you need 185 hours to get a cpl issued, however, 50 hours are credited from fixed wing if you hold a cpl(a). hurrah! hopefully that will be enough for the cpl(h).
good gravy me thinks. to start an fi(h) course you need 300 hours on heli's. a bit steep, but them there are the rules. the fi(a) means that i don't need to do the theory side, just the expensive flying part. a quick question about the fi. as a newbie, you are restricted to no first solol flights. as this restriction is removed from my fi(a) does this mean that i am automatically unrestricted as an fi(h). also, i have the night and instrument instruction restrictions removed from the fi(a). do these automatically get assigned to the fi(h) aswell? its not clear in lasors..
as for costs. well,
the ppl 39 hours @ £240 = £9380
hour building 66 hours @ £125 hours = £8250
cpl training and nq = £5970
add on test fees aswell = £1000
which gives me not much change from £25000. ouch!
somehow build hours up to 300, then add another 7200 for the fi rating aswell.
not much change from £33000, plus i have a mountain to climb post cpl to get the experience for the fi course. so if anyone has any tips or stories to help me that would be much appreciated. i do have a plan b up my sleeve, but the above way is the one i want to persue.
assuming all done in minima's, then i will walk away with 330 hours in helis, cpl(h)/fi(h) and a substantially reduced bank balance. beats working for a living anyway.
cheers
pil
as i apparently have more money than sense, i'm pricing up the cost of becoming a rotary instructor. currently i hold a cpl/ir(a) with the fi(a) all nicely stashed in my licence.
so my current understanding of what i need to do is as follows. could someone please let me know if i have missed anything out or completely lost the plot.
ok, to begin with get the ppl(h). according to lasors this can be yours for 39 hours tuition. fine. happy with that.
next i need to hour build up to 105 hours before i can start the cpl course. again no problems so far. looks like 66 hours banging round solo like a loon....
fine and dandy. next i need to do the theory side of things. according to lasors again, as i have completed all the atpl writtens for fixed wing, all i need to do is principles of flight as all the other exams are the same as the atpl(a) exams. that'll save a few squids....
then i start to get confused. now, because i hold a valid ir(a), the modular cpl(h) course is quoted as 20 hours vfr and 5 hours on instruments. so this takes me up to 130 hours on heli's.
i also need a night qualification training to gain a cpl. so the course is 5 hours (again a bonus of the ir). however, according to lasors, the nq can only be issued once you have logged 100 hours post ppl issue! now, for the cpl issue, only the training for a nq is required. do you still need the 100 hours post ppl aswell if you are applying for a cpl. if so then that puts a rather large spanner in the works. i suspect not, as i think this 100 hours is for people with a ppl wantig to fly at night, and a cpl has the night qualification embedded. however, if someone could clarify this i would be grateful.
anyway, back to the numbers. 39 (ppl) + 66 (hour building) + 25 (cpl training) + 5 (nq) = 135 hours.
you need 185 hours to get a cpl issued, however, 50 hours are credited from fixed wing if you hold a cpl(a). hurrah! hopefully that will be enough for the cpl(h).
good gravy me thinks. to start an fi(h) course you need 300 hours on heli's. a bit steep, but them there are the rules. the fi(a) means that i don't need to do the theory side, just the expensive flying part. a quick question about the fi. as a newbie, you are restricted to no first solol flights. as this restriction is removed from my fi(a) does this mean that i am automatically unrestricted as an fi(h). also, i have the night and instrument instruction restrictions removed from the fi(a). do these automatically get assigned to the fi(h) aswell? its not clear in lasors..
as for costs. well,
the ppl 39 hours @ £240 = £9380
hour building 66 hours @ £125 hours = £8250
cpl training and nq = £5970
add on test fees aswell = £1000
which gives me not much change from £25000. ouch!
somehow build hours up to 300, then add another 7200 for the fi rating aswell.
not much change from £33000, plus i have a mountain to climb post cpl to get the experience for the fi course. so if anyone has any tips or stories to help me that would be much appreciated. i do have a plan b up my sleeve, but the above way is the one i want to persue.
assuming all done in minima's, then i will walk away with 330 hours in helis, cpl(h)/fi(h) and a substantially reduced bank balance. beats working for a living anyway.
cheers
pil
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I would recommend Mike Horrell of MFH Helicopters based at Conington Airfield nr Peterborough, he has undertaken quite a few instructor courses in the past, also he will fly with you every day if you wish so you will get good continuity and a rating (hopefully) in the shortest possible time. Apart from that he is a good bloke.
Mikes number is 07779086911
Also I have just heard that following a meeting out in Innsbruck, the hours requirement for Heli instructing is to be reduced to 250. the only proviso being a pre course check ride with a CAA examiner (£££££££!!!) prior to starting. I believe this will be adopted as of June this year.
Mikes number is 07779086911
Also I have just heard that following a meeting out in Innsbruck, the hours requirement for Heli instructing is to be reduced to 250. the only proviso being a pre course check ride with a CAA examiner (£££££££!!!) prior to starting. I believe this will be adopted as of June this year.
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I did an FI course at Tiger recently as posted in another thread that I cannot find just at present the notes on that thread where Pete Bings ground school Package was very good and comprehesive but he was not allowed to carryout the flying so Alan Ramson had to, but is went to rats becouse he was so busy
Richard the new instructor did his course with Mike Green at Fast and he was highly pleased with the course
I carried out my test with Mike and I could see why, mike even during the test was very helpfull and constructive
Got a first time pass so it could not have been that bad it just seemed to drag on and on.
Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Heligaz
on not wishing to tread on Whirrygigs toes could you by any chance disclose the company that is looking for FI,s at present
as I am in the similar position
would it be the one at Halwarden
I would appreciate it, that is if you dont mind, also that is if you dont mind whirygig
if you do I understand
Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Richard the new instructor did his course with Mike Green at Fast and he was highly pleased with the course
I carried out my test with Mike and I could see why, mike even during the test was very helpfull and constructive
Got a first time pass so it could not have been that bad it just seemed to drag on and on.
Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Heligaz
on not wishing to tread on Whirrygigs toes could you by any chance disclose the company that is looking for FI,s at present
as I am in the similar position
would it be the one at Halwarden
I would appreciate it, that is if you dont mind, also that is if you dont mind whirygig
if you do I understand
Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Last edited by Bravo 99 (AJB); 16th Mar 2004 at 18:55.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Get a job, get some experience, become an instructor.
Mr.Selfish is right after all you cannot get you drivers licence and train someone to drive straight away. Imagine what the highways would be like.
The blind leading the blind, rising to the level of your green instructors incompetence.
Two thousand hours should be the lowest limit for helicopter instructors.
Mr.Selfish is right after all you cannot get you drivers licence and train someone to drive straight away. Imagine what the highways would be like.
The blind leading the blind, rising to the level of your green instructors incompetence.
Two thousand hours should be the lowest limit for helicopter instructors.
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Charlie S Charlie, yes there is a check ride presently but I think it is with a CFI, the new one I understand is with a CAA examiner - not sure if this will actually present any major difficulties but certainly having paid nearly £1000 for a Commercial check ride (examiner, heli hire and licence), I am concerned they do not fleece us on the day.
As for implementation, my understanding is that the CAA are implementing from June.
As an extra thought why is a Commercial check ride nearly 3 times the cost of a PPL check ride and why is the licence more expensive as well!!!
As for implementation, my understanding is that the CAA are implementing from June.
As an extra thought why is a Commercial check ride nearly 3 times the cost of a PPL check ride and why is the licence more expensive as well!!!
I think I'm right that at current rates your CAA Examiner's pre-entry check ride will be £150. Set this against the savings of 49 hours worth of SFH and it's got to be a bargain.
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I dont disagree it is a huge saving and hopefully brings forward the day I can earn a penny or two, I guess I am like a lot of other people qualified and poor and not wanting to pay out more than I have to.
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HELP ....I think I've had a breakdown ......
After 27 years working in the Heli industry I've gone and signed up to do my (official) instructors rating .... can somebody PLEASE PLEASE tell me whats come over me ??????
Yeah I know about the terminal insanity! (ha ha)
After 27 years working in the Heli industry I've gone and signed up to do my (official) instructors rating .... can somebody PLEASE PLEASE tell me whats come over me ??????
Yeah I know about the terminal insanity! (ha ha)
spinningwings,
I seem to have been struck with the same "idea"!
Once upon a time, I gave around 500 hours of dual instruction and I confess to missing it. I´m considering moving to Australia and would like to pick up an instructor rating. I would like to know whether I would be able to each on twins or does one need to do a Type Rating Examiner course as in Europe?
Forgive the lazy questions, but I'm a long way from Oz and my research thus far has been fruitless.
Thanks
P.S. Does anyone know if Australian type ratings are recognised by JAA, i.e. can type ratings on my Aus licence be transferred to my JAR one?
I seem to have been struck with the same "idea"!
Once upon a time, I gave around 500 hours of dual instruction and I confess to missing it. I´m considering moving to Australia and would like to pick up an instructor rating. I would like to know whether I would be able to each on twins or does one need to do a Type Rating Examiner course as in Europe?
Forgive the lazy questions, but I'm a long way from Oz and my research thus far has been fruitless.
Thanks
P.S. Does anyone know if Australian type ratings are recognised by JAA, i.e. can type ratings on my Aus licence be transferred to my JAR one?