Bristow North Sea
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just two points:
Firstly, a very good article by John McGurk in The Log, 'Don't Kill the Goose'. Well worth a read.
Secondly, Problemchild, go back to your fixed wing flying, and don't talk about things you no longer know about.
Chopperman.
Firstly, a very good article by John McGurk in The Log, 'Don't Kill the Goose'. Well worth a read.
Secondly, Problemchild, go back to your fixed wing flying, and don't talk about things you no longer know about.
Chopperman.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm sorry the meeting didn't work out..... but I'm not surprised. Apathy wasn't the only factor to cause a low turnout . People have a natural reluctance to be seen to be involved in unofficial forums ( would Pprune work if we all had to reveal our identities ? )That said though , I do think we should have a means of communicating our thoughts to each other and the companies. Why don't we set up a Balpa forum ? This would allow us to discuss and influence Balpa's actions and focus their efforts. At the end of the day , they are the only organisation that the companies recognise so we should be behind them 100%.
With regards to the salary issue I think it's simple . We should employ exactly the same rhetoric against the companies that they have so recently and successfully used against the oil companies. "You have been getting a high quality service at a low price for too long.... start paying up".Both the oil companies and the helicopter operators know that the wages are going to have to increase significantly to keep us happy , and I beleave they are prepared to go that route. All we have to do is stay calm and put forward well reasoned and reasonable requests through recognised channels and we will win.
One final thought for any Balpa reps who are reading this and thinking that I am blowing sunshine up their butts. You should never have agreed to a gagging clause without first consulting us! Communication is a two-way thing.
My typing finger hurts TTFN.
------------------
BOHICA
With regards to the salary issue I think it's simple . We should employ exactly the same rhetoric against the companies that they have so recently and successfully used against the oil companies. "You have been getting a high quality service at a low price for too long.... start paying up".Both the oil companies and the helicopter operators know that the wages are going to have to increase significantly to keep us happy , and I beleave they are prepared to go that route. All we have to do is stay calm and put forward well reasoned and reasonable requests through recognised channels and we will win.
One final thought for any Balpa reps who are reading this and thinking that I am blowing sunshine up their butts. You should never have agreed to a gagging clause without first consulting us! Communication is a two-way thing.
My typing finger hurts TTFN.
------------------
BOHICA
Guest
Posts: n/a
Right my turn!
Firstly the letter to BALPA has just created more problems. I've seen it at work and I'm very surprised at some of the people who have signed it. There is no way that I would lend my signature to such an appalling piece of illiterate rubbish. It is full of emotive language, idle threats and old clichés. It is a complete and utter load of bollocks.
The author of this and the signatories have together managed to undermine the BALPA negotiating team, split the workforce and enforce the management view that pilots are basically disorganised and divided. If the author is who I think he is then I wish he would make good on his continued threats to leave. I'd personally give him a lift to the train station to make sure he goes.
Face the facts, both companies will have to give the workforce a good pay rise but only for one reason and it will have nothing to do with the BALPA negotiating team or with badly written letters. The pilots are now, at long last, voting with their feet and there are very few new pilots available to take their places and that's it.
Collective Friction's point about the gagging clause and BALPA is well made. I think that at the next BALPA meeting it should be raised and answered. MSF doesn't have such a clause so why have BALPA agreed to it?
[This message has been edited by Rameses III (edited 16 June 2001).]
Firstly the letter to BALPA has just created more problems. I've seen it at work and I'm very surprised at some of the people who have signed it. There is no way that I would lend my signature to such an appalling piece of illiterate rubbish. It is full of emotive language, idle threats and old clichés. It is a complete and utter load of bollocks.
The author of this and the signatories have together managed to undermine the BALPA negotiating team, split the workforce and enforce the management view that pilots are basically disorganised and divided. If the author is who I think he is then I wish he would make good on his continued threats to leave. I'd personally give him a lift to the train station to make sure he goes.
Face the facts, both companies will have to give the workforce a good pay rise but only for one reason and it will have nothing to do with the BALPA negotiating team or with badly written letters. The pilots are now, at long last, voting with their feet and there are very few new pilots available to take their places and that's it.
Collective Friction's point about the gagging clause and BALPA is well made. I think that at the next BALPA meeting it should be raised and answered. MSF doesn't have such a clause so why have BALPA agreed to it?
[This message has been edited by Rameses III (edited 16 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
OK, I think we're all agreed in the same(ish) goals. Perhaps we need to come up with some figures for Balpa to go in with - It seems that the situation has changed in the 3 months since we were asked what pay-rise we were looking for and we're all asking for another 5-10% on top of that.
Can anyone in the know, look at the pay scales at Easyjet, Go etc. then find some middle ground between them and us and start batting around some figures. I don't want to start a total riot but I feel we aren't going to get 50% and I really want to see where the threshold is between the majority of pilots walking out, and pilots being satisfied.
I think we can be as open as we like here as management are well aware of the general feeling on the ground, and my belief is that if we can get 15% now with a guaranteed 15% minimum, for next year (to be negotiated upwards), then that will be an acceptable proposition. If I am wrong, then please let me know now, but at least lets start getting some figures. And don't worry about 'giving our hand away' because you can guarantee one thing, whatever our bottom line is, the companies are going to undercut that by 5% whether its printed here or taken in by Balpa.
We need to establish what is acceptable and stick to it - Anything lower requries some sort of action by all. And don't just come back with 40 or 50% as I am not looking to break the companies, but get an established foundation for future pay scale increases that will have us up with the fixed-wing crowd in the next 5 years.
If I'm speaking totally outwith the rest of you then shoot me !!
Can anyone in the know, look at the pay scales at Easyjet, Go etc. then find some middle ground between them and us and start batting around some figures. I don't want to start a total riot but I feel we aren't going to get 50% and I really want to see where the threshold is between the majority of pilots walking out, and pilots being satisfied.
I think we can be as open as we like here as management are well aware of the general feeling on the ground, and my belief is that if we can get 15% now with a guaranteed 15% minimum, for next year (to be negotiated upwards), then that will be an acceptable proposition. If I am wrong, then please let me know now, but at least lets start getting some figures. And don't worry about 'giving our hand away' because you can guarantee one thing, whatever our bottom line is, the companies are going to undercut that by 5% whether its printed here or taken in by Balpa.
We need to establish what is acceptable and stick to it - Anything lower requries some sort of action by all. And don't just come back with 40 or 50% as I am not looking to break the companies, but get an established foundation for future pay scale increases that will have us up with the fixed-wing crowd in the next 5 years.
If I'm speaking totally outwith the rest of you then shoot me !!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I would tend to agreewith the sentiment, however, the companies have to solve the problem of today and not one which may not be around in 5 yrs. The shortage of experienced crews is only going to get worse in the forseeable unless something substantial is achieved now. I believe this for two reasons;
1- high time co-pilots and junior captains will still leave to either fixed wing or other rotary jobs. To fixed wing for the money (in most cases an increase in pay to join the bottom rung of the ladder). To onshore rotary jobs for a change of seat and still probably an increase in salary. We seem to have forgotten that onshore salaries have caught us guys who have to wear rubber and fly in crap, whilst we have seen our pay and conditions deteriorate.
2- We will not attract the young keen pilot into rotary whilst we offer what we have now. This situation has been exacerbated with the implimentation of JAA licenses and the associated increase in cost. Who in their right mind is going to undertake a rotary license at a cost of £50k+ when he/she could spend £30k for a f/w ATPL with the better prospects at the end of it!
This situation is set to get even worse at the end of the year with the introduction of the JAA abridged ATPL(H) IR to ATPL(A) exams, making a fixed wing conversion from rotary one hell of a lot easier than it is at present.
1- high time co-pilots and junior captains will still leave to either fixed wing or other rotary jobs. To fixed wing for the money (in most cases an increase in pay to join the bottom rung of the ladder). To onshore rotary jobs for a change of seat and still probably an increase in salary. We seem to have forgotten that onshore salaries have caught us guys who have to wear rubber and fly in crap, whilst we have seen our pay and conditions deteriorate.
2- We will not attract the young keen pilot into rotary whilst we offer what we have now. This situation has been exacerbated with the implimentation of JAA licenses and the associated increase in cost. Who in their right mind is going to undertake a rotary license at a cost of £50k+ when he/she could spend £30k for a f/w ATPL with the better prospects at the end of it!
This situation is set to get even worse at the end of the year with the introduction of the JAA abridged ATPL(H) IR to ATPL(A) exams, making a fixed wing conversion from rotary one hell of a lot easier than it is at present.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Why are you all looking over a two or three year period! What's wrong with now. The oil companies ARE expecting it. 50% is not such a stupid figure. Look at BA asking for 30% this year, not over several.
[This message has been edited by QM (edited 17 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by QM (edited 17 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
QM,catch a taxi to GETREALSVILLE TENNESSEE.
The pay hike you are talking about is only achievable by breaking the company.The new contract rates that have been negotiated with the oil companies will take a while to filter through.Any large pay award at this time would require a commensurate increase in the pension scheme, and I don't think BHL or SCOTIA could afford that.If we can keep our heads and not get greedy then we will achieve a very good standard of living with a longterm future to go with it.
------------------
BOHICA
The pay hike you are talking about is only achievable by breaking the company.The new contract rates that have been negotiated with the oil companies will take a while to filter through.Any large pay award at this time would require a commensurate increase in the pension scheme, and I don't think BHL or SCOTIA could afford that.If we can keep our heads and not get greedy then we will achieve a very good standard of living with a longterm future to go with it.
------------------
BOHICA
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've been to realsville, which is why I mention it. The oil companies ARE expecting it. It is just convincing 'The Management' to go to them and increase our rates. Of course we can't expect our company, or Scotia to coff up a 50% pay rise with the current negotiated rates. Therefore it is time to go back to the oil companies and inform them that the pilots need more to keep them happy and not leave, or cause disruption.
A perfect example was in rotor & wing recently. A suggested structured 41% rise for PHI. It is about time someone got of their butt and did the same in this country!
Our company can only work on their current rates. After the meeting last week, most agree that the rates NEED to be re negotiated.
A perfect example was in rotor & wing recently. A suggested structured 41% rise for PHI. It is about time someone got of their butt and did the same in this country!
Our company can only work on their current rates. After the meeting last week, most agree that the rates NEED to be re negotiated.
Guest
Posts: n/a
If you want to see a comparison of where we stand against the airlines, have a look at the latest edition of The Log. There is an excellent article by John McGurk and he puts forward our case very well. I only hope those in management see the article and take heed of the warnings (and the oil companies come to that).
Whoever, it was who was asking about the letter posted at Bristows, it was put on this list by North Sea Phantom. The letter was accompanied by a report of the meeting posted by 100%RPM.
Interestingly enough, the two items were stapled together in the Bristow crewroom and as "[email protected]" appears to be the e-mail address offering copies of the text of the letter, I can only guess he is the instigator. I have to agree with Rameses III with his comments over this person. This person has done more harm that good in my opinion. We need to be supporting our negotiating team, NOT causing them more problems. They have more than enough to contend with by trying to get a so-far unsympathetic management to come up with something to take to the workforce. Despite the gagging order imposed by management (which I have seen in other comapnies during crucial pay negotiations and so is not an unusual thing to happen - Bristow is not alone in this), it basically means that the union negotiators believe that the company has not given them anything near to what their members want and therefore both have retired to allow the management to see if they can come up with something better. To tell everybody about things which are not actually on the table is worthless. Why not let the team get something that they can take to us to vote on. THEN, we can decide what we want to do about it and let our CC know.
Then is the time to say "50% or nothing" or (to me) the more sensible approach of trying to increase over say 3 years.
Whoever, it was who was asking about the letter posted at Bristows, it was put on this list by North Sea Phantom. The letter was accompanied by a report of the meeting posted by 100%RPM.
Interestingly enough, the two items were stapled together in the Bristow crewroom and as "[email protected]" appears to be the e-mail address offering copies of the text of the letter, I can only guess he is the instigator. I have to agree with Rameses III with his comments over this person. This person has done more harm that good in my opinion. We need to be supporting our negotiating team, NOT causing them more problems. They have more than enough to contend with by trying to get a so-far unsympathetic management to come up with something to take to the workforce. Despite the gagging order imposed by management (which I have seen in other comapnies during crucial pay negotiations and so is not an unusual thing to happen - Bristow is not alone in this), it basically means that the union negotiators believe that the company has not given them anything near to what their members want and therefore both have retired to allow the management to see if they can come up with something better. To tell everybody about things which are not actually on the table is worthless. Why not let the team get something that they can take to us to vote on. THEN, we can decide what we want to do about it and let our CC know.
Then is the time to say "50% or nothing" or (to me) the more sensible approach of trying to increase over say 3 years.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Rameses III
Your points raised on "the letter" are, perhaps too scathing. The individual concerned can be naive to the extreme but the points raised by his letter are relevant. It is time that management is made aware of how we, the pilot workforce, view the incompetence of the last decade of contract negotiations. BALPA is our only forum capable of acheiving this. As I have said in previous comments, oil companies will pay whatever is needed to service their industry. However, the fact that all 3 and now only 2 companies have shot each other in the foot over contract prices is as much a fault of us, the pilot workforce, as our own management. We have bent over backwards to fly that rotation in "marginal" conditions, not take our rest period out of suit, be real "company men" whilst filling in our duty hours etc etc. WHY? All we have needed to do is operate exactly by the book. Certainly, that would have given better protection against slimming down and enforced redundancies. However, back to the letter. The fact that so many are signing this letter, many of whom are capable of more eloquent pros, is to me, a sign of unity which is what we all want.
I will conclude by saying the Prune forum is good for us all to let off steam. I don't believe it harms our cause because it provides a useful conduit from the workforce to management. However, there is only one organisation ,BALPA, capable of improving our terms and conditions. I would say if you are not in, join or hold your tongue. We are so quick to criticise the CC but of course they are powerless without the majority of workforce support. If we could get our membership to around 90% or better, we would se a management who took all these comments in Prune much more seriously.
I launched a Puma into the blue,
Where he went, I have no clue,
A 61 said "I can do",
Now that buggers got lost too.
Anon!
Your points raised on "the letter" are, perhaps too scathing. The individual concerned can be naive to the extreme but the points raised by his letter are relevant. It is time that management is made aware of how we, the pilot workforce, view the incompetence of the last decade of contract negotiations. BALPA is our only forum capable of acheiving this. As I have said in previous comments, oil companies will pay whatever is needed to service their industry. However, the fact that all 3 and now only 2 companies have shot each other in the foot over contract prices is as much a fault of us, the pilot workforce, as our own management. We have bent over backwards to fly that rotation in "marginal" conditions, not take our rest period out of suit, be real "company men" whilst filling in our duty hours etc etc. WHY? All we have needed to do is operate exactly by the book. Certainly, that would have given better protection against slimming down and enforced redundancies. However, back to the letter. The fact that so many are signing this letter, many of whom are capable of more eloquent pros, is to me, a sign of unity which is what we all want.
I will conclude by saying the Prune forum is good for us all to let off steam. I don't believe it harms our cause because it provides a useful conduit from the workforce to management. However, there is only one organisation ,BALPA, capable of improving our terms and conditions. I would say if you are not in, join or hold your tongue. We are so quick to criticise the CC but of course they are powerless without the majority of workforce support. If we could get our membership to around 90% or better, we would se a management who took all these comments in Prune much more seriously.
I launched a Puma into the blue,
Where he went, I have no clue,
A 61 said "I can do",
Now that buggers got lost too.
Anon!
Guest
Posts: n/a
What are the current membership percentages of Balpa in each company ? For so long we had absolutely no forum or voice that I'd have assumed a near 100% membership now the Union is recognised by the operators.It's the only chance, so each time you fly, badger the other guy to join if he's not already done so.It's amazing how quickly the numbers can rise if you get a ground swell going and people feel they are part of the majority.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Not so professional anymore this forum. Lots of childish banter and nit picking but not much else. Stop playing games with the clever digs at each other and get on with the job of trying to improve our lot. Also it would be better if you stop listing peoples email addresses like flapbacks. If BALPA went to the management, and they went to the oil companies saying we wanted 30-40% and the oil companies said yes. Does anyone thing that we would get that money or would managment stich us up yet again with the money going to themselves. Please stop the swearing as well.
I like many others am looking for work elsewhere!
I like many others am looking for work elsewhere!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Brassed off'
I cannot agree with you. Our dispute IS with OUR management. What they can negotiate from the oil companies is up to them and good luck to them! (we all want happy share holders don't we?) What our management must realise is that they have a very unhappy workforce, which will soon be no workforce unless they do something soon. I, like you, am now looking very actively elsewhere and will go unless they come up with the goods. Surely, we are not alone here.
However, I agree about the needless niggles and e-mail idents.
I should maybe qualify the workforce! Maybe they will still have a workforce but will it be of the right calibre/experience?
I cannot agree with you. Our dispute IS with OUR management. What they can negotiate from the oil companies is up to them and good luck to them! (we all want happy share holders don't we?) What our management must realise is that they have a very unhappy workforce, which will soon be no workforce unless they do something soon. I, like you, am now looking very actively elsewhere and will go unless they come up with the goods. Surely, we are not alone here.
However, I agree about the needless niggles and e-mail idents.
I should maybe qualify the workforce! Maybe they will still have a workforce but will it be of the right calibre/experience?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Does anyone know how the Bristow anti BALPA brigade’s Sunday meeting went? Did anyone turn up and can we expect another badly written letter in the near future attacking the Company Council?
The way in which these clowns are carrying on causes me to suspect that they may be management infiltrators. The truth is out there!
The way in which these clowns are carrying on causes me to suspect that they may be management infiltrators. The truth is out there!