BK117
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....Have to agree with everything John has posted...especially about the adjustment of the T/R "Bobweights" which are used to set (adjust) pedel forces .....
Cheers John ...
Cheers John ...
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BK117 questions
Does anyone know if the Kawasaki-built BK117 is certified in the UK? I remember that some Scottish fire service (Strathclyde?) had one as a demonstrator some years back, but that may have been a "pukka" German-built version.
If it is not certified now, will it be under EASA, maybe?
If it is not certified now, will it be under EASA, maybe?
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The Kawasaki built version is not certified in the UK, Europe or the USA. If you want one, you have to get a Eurocopter (MBB) built version.
Likewise, the MBB Built ones are not certified in Asia or Australia (although may be able to be certified in Oz??)
Thie thing is, that on the used market, a Kawasaki version is only worth around half of an MBB version. They are not inferior per se but it is part of the original Joint Venture between MBB and Kawasaki that they would be certified in separate markets.
The ability to earn money with a Kawasaki is therefore limited to cretain regions where traditionally, rates are lower so the revenue is lower. The used market judges them as such and that is why they are cheaper.
Hope this helps
HH
Likewise, the MBB Built ones are not certified in Asia or Australia (although may be able to be certified in Oz??)
Thie thing is, that on the used market, a Kawasaki version is only worth around half of an MBB version. They are not inferior per se but it is part of the original Joint Venture between MBB and Kawasaki that they would be certified in separate markets.
The ability to earn money with a Kawasaki is therefore limited to cretain regions where traditionally, rates are lower so the revenue is lower. The used market judges them as such and that is why they are cheaper.
Hope this helps
HH
The MBB is certificated world wide, and can be sold world wide. The marketing arrangement with Kawasaki was that the kwakas are limited to SE Asian makets, including Australasia (Aust, PNG, NZ, Pacific Isl)
Child Flight operated the region's second BK117 (after the NSW police took theirs swimming) and it wa an MBB one.
Child Flight operated the region's second BK117 (after the NSW police took theirs swimming) and it wa an MBB one.
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I beleive there was a Japanese Bk imported to canada. The seller bought a japanese aircraft and an old american airframe and transferred the low time dynamic components to the US airframe . Back in the good old days there were many tax incentives to buying a helicopter in Japan and may were bought as tax shelters .
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Shock Trauma Air Rescue headquartered in Calgary Ab, operates four Eurocopter BK117 helicopters manufactured in Germany and Japan.
STAR-2, STAR-3 and STAR-4 are BK117 B-2D models and STAR-1 is a BK117 A-1D model.
STAR-2, STAR-3 and STAR-4 are BK117 B-2D models and STAR-1 is a BK117 A-1D model.
BK117 gearboxes
In recent weeks the MD900 has taken the brunt of the bad press on Kawasaki gearbox failures ... I understand that West Midlands Police are now on their third box failure this year ... but the MD is not the only type to use Kawasaki gearboxes, the BK117 among others uses them.
So what is the history of Kawasaki gearboxes in the BK ... good or bad? Robust or weak?
So what is the history of Kawasaki gearboxes in the BK ... good or bad? Robust or weak?
From a mechanics point of view..... Bulletproof. A company that I worked for looked after 15 BK117's (A4/B1/B2), and in the 3 years I was there, they never did any unscheduled maint on the MGB. I did the Mast Spacer inspections for the company, and that would have to be the weak point, especially if you do alot of heavy lifting work with your BK, just about guaranteed to be replacing the Mast Spacer during the inspection due to wear. Keep on top of corrosion and paint condition. That magnesium sure does fizz when salty air gets on it!! The quality of the gears inside is very good. After 5000 hours, they usually look like they are new. It is surprising that the MD900 series has problems with a Kawasaki gearbox. The BK MGB's are built very well, and just keep going and going. Did you know that Kawasaki also do the inputs for the AB139 MGB?
noooby
noooby
I was not aware of the AB139 connection, but as a newer programme its track record would be less of an indicator than the old BK117.
So there must be another cause. I am no expert on gearboxes let alone the differences [if any] between the BK and the MD MGB but that leads us towards asking questions about design differences relative to the interior of the 900 MGB. Are cogs just cogs or have they changed materials?
Another train of thought might explore the differences in the dynamic forces affecting the power train of the 117 and the 900.
You do not see 900s '...do a lot of heavy lifting work...' and yet the 117 is said to be pretty resiliant against such abuse.
Does anyone have any further ideas?
So there must be another cause. I am no expert on gearboxes let alone the differences [if any] between the BK and the MD MGB but that leads us towards asking questions about design differences relative to the interior of the 900 MGB. Are cogs just cogs or have they changed materials?
Another train of thought might explore the differences in the dynamic forces affecting the power train of the 117 and the 900.
You do not see 900s '...do a lot of heavy lifting work...' and yet the 117 is said to be pretty resiliant against such abuse.
Does anyone have any further ideas?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Does anyone have any further ideas?
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Hmmm, i would question the duty cycle that the gearbox was undergoing. I imagine that Police choppers will do a lot more agressive manouvreing that most choppers. This means the mast thrust bearings and tail rotor output bearings will be seeing more load. Worrying when you consider rotor component fatigue lifes.
I can't imagine the power input being a problem, unless the engine is normally derated but has been increased for Police usage. It is possible they are using oil, which while being in spec, is not as durable thus reducing bearing life.
Really, i would need to know more about the actual nature of the failures to do anything more than speculate.
Mart
I can't imagine the power input being a problem, unless the engine is normally derated but has been increased for Police usage. It is possible they are using oil, which while being in spec, is not as durable thus reducing bearing life.
Really, i would need to know more about the actual nature of the failures to do anything more than speculate.
Mart
Giovanni Cento Nove I guess you are wrong.... bearing in mind that engineers who have worked on them have already posted. There may be a mix across the fleet, but the BK117C1 has a Kawasaki KHI KB03 anyway.
The choice of the BK as the core of this question was honed in on the box.
As for Silsoe Kids comment about about changing records perhaps he has a view on the subject.
Perhaps he has not asked why the K boxes are causing problems 'all of a sudden' when it now seems pretty clear that other boxes by the same manufacturer have displayed anything but weakness.
Do you NEVER ask questions?
How do you hope to get answers?
The choice of the BK as the core of this question was honed in on the box.
As for Silsoe Kids comment about about changing records perhaps he has a view on the subject.
Perhaps he has not asked why the K boxes are causing problems 'all of a sudden' when it now seems pretty clear that other boxes by the same manufacturer have displayed anything but weakness.
Do you NEVER ask questions?
How do you hope to get answers?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
PANews,
The reason I came up with my 'kids comment'as you put it, is because it seems to me that all you tend to do is enter or start a thread dangling your little line and when someone comes on board to discuss the subject against what you believe to be the facts, you suddenly become the expert in the said subject.
If you don't know the answer to a question, fair enough. Allow others to educate you.
However, if you know the answers, please post them and stop inviting opinions that more than likely are going to get the famous PANews reply along the lines of your last post to Giovanni.
Yes I have bitten your line, but you'll have to struggle like fcuk to get me reeled in!
A little research found,
http://www.zf.com/zf_luft/defaultz.asp?id=113&lang=1
ZF make intermediate- and tail rotor gearboxes for the BK117
'Overhaul and repair of transmissions'
"For the following transmission we can offer you either major overhaul, repair or exchange transmissions:
main transmission BK117"
Giovanni, I believe you may have an apology incoming!
PANews, this thread title and most comments do not directly mention Main Gearboxes. Although most of us know what you are on about, it doesn't follow that Giovanni knows about your bitching!
ATB,
SS
All those who enjoy PANews' little lines, may I suggest buying the 'Another Monty Python Record,' LP, and listen to the 'Pirannha Brothers' track which is at the end of side 1. It has what is called a 'locked groove'. This means it goes on ad infinitum, well at least til the next power cut anyway!
Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...................................................... ...
edited because I want PA to apologise to Gio.!!!
The reason I came up with my 'kids comment'as you put it, is because it seems to me that all you tend to do is enter or start a thread dangling your little line and when someone comes on board to discuss the subject against what you believe to be the facts, you suddenly become the expert in the said subject.
If you don't know the answer to a question, fair enough. Allow others to educate you.
However, if you know the answers, please post them and stop inviting opinions that more than likely are going to get the famous PANews reply along the lines of your last post to Giovanni.
Yes I have bitten your line, but you'll have to struggle like fcuk to get me reeled in!
A little research found,
http://www.zf.com/zf_luft/defaultz.asp?id=113&lang=1
ZF make intermediate- and tail rotor gearboxes for the BK117
'Overhaul and repair of transmissions'
"For the following transmission we can offer you either major overhaul, repair or exchange transmissions:
main transmission BK117"
Giovanni, I believe you may have an apology incoming!
PANews, this thread title and most comments do not directly mention Main Gearboxes. Although most of us know what you are on about, it doesn't follow that Giovanni knows about your bitching!
ATB,
SS
All those who enjoy PANews' little lines, may I suggest buying the 'Another Monty Python Record,' LP, and listen to the 'Pirannha Brothers' track which is at the end of side 1. It has what is called a 'locked groove'. This means it goes on ad infinitum, well at least til the next power cut anyway!
Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...Sorry squire I scratched your record....sorry squire I scratched your record...................................................... ...
edited because I want PA to apologise to Gio.!!!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 6th May 2005 at 18:50.
No apology offered.
Giovanni you said categorically the BK117 gearbox was made by ZF in Germany. Not specifically correct, but it seems that some probably are - but that is not what was said in the post.
The Giovanni statement appears to have directly contradicted Noooby [allegedly a mechanic who had worked on the beast - who was backed up by Spinwing] who offered an opinion that the Kawasaki gearbox on the 117 was a good bit of gear.
Perhaps this argument may therefore be with Noooby and Spinwing in their apparent confirmation that the models of BK they were aware of were using Kawasaki.
It may be that some models of the BK have ZF boxes, but as far as the thread goes this is a Kawasaki box thread ['bad press on Kawasaki gearbox failures'].
I am aware that there are Kawasaki boxes on the BK117C1 and that I am not aware of any major MGB problem reports on that type but that was probably the sum total of my knowledge at the time I posted. Hence the question.
From Noooby and Spinswing I have had my question on the usual capabilities of Kawasaki gearboxes succinctly answered.
The insertion of any ZF mention is therefore effectively a red herring.
Finally Silsoe .... in which posting did you actually get around to twisting quoted words of 'Silsoe Kids comment' into the slightly emotive .... 'kids comment' - have you been taking something? That was just a typo for Silsoe Sid, you even changed the Capitalisation in support of what was a clear distortion of the written word.
Giovanni you said categorically the BK117 gearbox was made by ZF in Germany. Not specifically correct, but it seems that some probably are - but that is not what was said in the post.
The Giovanni statement appears to have directly contradicted Noooby [allegedly a mechanic who had worked on the beast - who was backed up by Spinwing] who offered an opinion that the Kawasaki gearbox on the 117 was a good bit of gear.
Perhaps this argument may therefore be with Noooby and Spinwing in their apparent confirmation that the models of BK they were aware of were using Kawasaki.
It may be that some models of the BK have ZF boxes, but as far as the thread goes this is a Kawasaki box thread ['bad press on Kawasaki gearbox failures'].
I am aware that there are Kawasaki boxes on the BK117C1 and that I am not aware of any major MGB problem reports on that type but that was probably the sum total of my knowledge at the time I posted. Hence the question.
From Noooby and Spinswing I have had my question on the usual capabilities of Kawasaki gearboxes succinctly answered.
The insertion of any ZF mention is therefore effectively a red herring.
Finally Silsoe .... in which posting did you actually get around to twisting quoted words of 'Silsoe Kids comment' into the slightly emotive .... 'kids comment' - have you been taking something? That was just a typo for Silsoe Sid, you even changed the Capitalisation in support of what was a clear distortion of the written word.
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Someone must have the IPC , it gives the manfg code quite clearly.
Is it possible that Japanese BK's have Kwakasaki and German ZF's . If i recall correctly there was quite a bit involved in taking an Asian airframe and retrofitting it so it could be used in North America . One of the Bk's flying for STARS in ALberta started out as a Japanese aircraft .
Is it possible that Japanese BK's have Kwakasaki and German ZF's . If i recall correctly there was quite a bit involved in taking an Asian airframe and retrofitting it so it could be used in North America . One of the Bk's flying for STARS in ALberta started out as a Japanese aircraft .