Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job

[Jon Tucker]

Help! Need advice on rotor pilot traning!

Hi,

Could really use some advice from you guys in the know...

I'm sick of my current career and I want to try and become a Comercial rotor pilot. I've been looking into it and frankly, I'm a little confused!

I live in the UK and the costs to train here are high so.... off to USA then but(!), when I start looking into it, it doesn't seem so straight forward.

So.... what I want to know is...

If I train in the USA will my licence be valid here in the UK?

I've read about the FAA and JAA, which to do? why?

Some flight training centres claim to get you to CFI in 12 weeks from scratch, others say it takes a year to 18 months, obviously it depends on the frequency of your flights but is it possible in 12 weeks?

There also seems to be a vast differnce in the costs of different training centres, I think its around $45k, is this about right?

Hope you can sort me out, and I'de appreciate any other 'Heads-Up' info anyone can give.

Thanks

Jon.

[skidkicker75]

Hi jon,

I am in pretty much the same situation as you, however i'am a few months ahead of you.

As i understand it, no, if you train in the USA the lisence is not valid in the UK and vice versa.

Price i would say sounds about right, i have seen on this forum mentioned many times that you get what you pay for, but as for most mortals like us the cheaper the better!

What you gain by training in the USA is the hours which ultimatly is what counts, (the flying is the expensive bit) and to convert to a UK lisence is relativly cheap.

As i understand it there are far more opportunitys for work in the US than at home. Having said that i have chosen to train in new zealand and then convert to whichever lisence is required if and when i get a job

As for scratch to CFI in twelve weeks sounds highly dubious to me, i have been training for 8 months now and will be finishing in 6 weeks, and thats for a 150hr CPL and not CFI. Personally speaking i would count on a year maybe a little longer for CFI.

Hope this helps and if i have got anything wrong i'am sure i will be corrected by others.

Just get to it, its the best feeling in the world!!

[rotorboy]

dont do it , buy powerball tickets.... odds are better and the goods arent so odd

rb

[Whirlybird]

Jon.

It doesn't look straightforward because it isn't. You will get answers to some of your questions by doing a search on here, as most of them have been asked many, many times. But you will probably be just as confused at the end, because there are no straight answers.

However, despite the costs, do try to bear in mind that there are other more important factors to consider. A good school with good instructors will get you through in far less time, with far better training, than...some of the others. It will probably even save you money in the long run. So don't just pick the apparently cheapest option.

Also bear in mind you're about to enter an industry where most of the jobs are dirty, exhausting, dangerous, not that well paid, and have no security. Being bored with your current job isn't enough. You've got to absolutely love helicopter flying for it to be worth it. Otherwise get a PPL(H), and maybe even more, but do it parttime to give you an interest, while retaining the ability to pay the bills.

Hope that helps a bit.

[The Rotordog]

I always get concerned when people say they want to jump into aviation because they are "sick of their current career." I worry that some people are prone to such sickness, and would eventually become sick of aviation too. Yes, it does happen. I prefer to hear from people who want to get into aviation simply because they want to.

Being in aviation is not a cure-all for general unhappiness in life. In fact, as Whirlybird correctly notes, flying jobs often come with various penalties that newbies either fail to consider or deliberately ignore.

[Flying Lawyer]

Using American licences in the UK:

An FAA PPL is valid.

An FAA CPL is valid, but only for limited purposes and only with permission from the UK Department for Transport.

An FAA Instructors Rating is valid, but only for limited purposes and only with permission from the UK Department for Transport.


eg An owner of an American registered aircraft may apply to the DfT for dispensation for an FAA Instructor to give him instruction in the aircraft and/or for an FAA CPL to fly the aircraft for the owner.

NB: This is only a summary of the general principles, not an exhaustive list.


Training / Job prospects:
You'll find a great deal of helpful information on training and job prospects on this thread - Link


Tudor Owen

[Jon Tucker]

Well thanks for your concern there Rotordog, but I can assure you that the basis for my wanting to do it is not purely related to my being unsatifsfied with my current career.

Its the only one I've had so far and I've been to doing it for 12 years, so no, I'm not prone to it.

I have done several trial flights in both fixed wing and rotor craft, and been planning to acquire my PPL(H) for a little while now.

In the last few years I have been commited to my job and my hobby, which is rallying. Both of these things have taken all of my time and one has used the available cash earned from the other! My situation is different now, I have stopped spending my cash on rallying and therefore am in a posistion to spend some on getting a licence to fly.

Also, now that I've stopped rallying, I find that my job is not what was keeping me interested in life. So....wouldn't you know it!!! I want to change my job, and I want a flying licence...How neatly these things could co-incide I thought!

I'm not 15 yrs old Rotordog, I've given this serious consideration. Neither am I so naive that I haven't realised the hard work, determination and commitment required, in fact its exactly like rallying in that respect.

Any other info anyone?

Great, thanks for the link Tudor

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

I always get concerned when people say they want to jump into aviation because they are "sick of their current career."

I am part way through my PPL(H) and I also want to make a career out of it. I am not sick of my current job, actually I work for myself and I really enjoy it, but flying helicopters for a living has recently become my ultimate goal. I know I have a long way to go, and the situation with jobs and pay isn't ideal, but I am doing it for the love of flying, and I am going to give it my best shot.

I'm going to stick with training in the UK, becuase this is where I plan to fly later on - if I trained in the USA then tried to get work over here, I don't think I'd be very confident with the local procedures.

WhirlyGirl

[The Rotordog]

Jon Tucker wrote:

Well thanks for your concern there Rotordog, but I can assure you that the basis for my wanting to do it is not purely related to my being unsatifsfied with my current career.

Not to be argumentative, but what you said in your original post was, "I'm sick of my current career and I want to try and become a Comercial rotor pilot." Oops! Sorry if I misunderstood your very clear intentions.

So you've had a job for twelve years while pursuing a great, fun hobby on the side. But now you've abandoned your hobby for some reason and are also suddenly and coincidentally dissatisfied with your job. Hey man, sounds like an early mid-life crisis to me. You feel that becoming a professional pilot will fill some void in your life or give you a sense of satisfaction that has somehow eluded you thus far. Or maybe it evaporated.

I'm no psycho-therapist, but If I were you I wouldn't expect great things from aviation, happiness-wise. There are a great many aviators who lead unrewarding, unhappy lives...because that's just who they are in the first place. Not saying that's you, understand. On the other hand, many of us feel (and have always felt) that aviation is as much a part of our lives as our spleen. For us there was never a choice.

You want to be a commercial helicopter pilot? Great! Come on in, the water's...well...it's water. You might bathe in it luxuriously, or you might find yourself up to your neck and sinking, struggling to remain afloat in a sea of debt in the never-ending chase for more ratings and hours.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that life is what you make it. If you're unhappy doing one thing, "trying" something else (especially aviation) in an effort to become happy is a big gamble.

In aviation, it's not just about hard work, committment and determination. If that were all there was to it, everybody would be a pilot! But there's also the incredible frustration of not being able to find a job...never mind a good one. And then the desperation of being stuck in a bad job while praying for a better one to "come along." There's also the horrible, unspeakable grief that comes when a friend dies in a helicopter crash. That last part will make you seriously question why you ever became a pilot. I myself have had to go through this more than once. We all have. You will too. It is not easy.

There's the tension of taking that flight-physical exam every year, knowing that the doctor could very well find a "glitch" that could end your career. Oh, that's comfortable! You try not to think about such things as he straps the blood-pressure cuff to your arm...

And finally (but not all-inclusively) there's the nagging self-doubt...the "am I good enough to do this?" that all pilots must constantly wonder about. On the surface, our egos tell us, "Hell yeah!" and certainly we must be confident that we can do the job. But if we dig a little deeper, we must constantly evaluate and critique ourselves to make sure our skills truly keep improving and that we don't develop any bad habits (perhaps fatal ones).

I have a lot of flight time. And even so I have found myself in situations in which the little voice inside of me is saying, "I hope you're good enough to pull this off, buddy." Ah, if only helicopter flying involved just straight-and-level flight on days of clear, blue skies with little white puffy clouds and birds chirping merrily in the background. But it doesn't.

Yes, there's a lot of hard work in getting the point where you are even employable. But right now you have no idea what the "hard work" of being a helicopter pilot entails. I did not either when I first started in this business. I do now, of course. And if I had it to do all over again, would I? That's kind of a moot question, because I never had the choice in the first place. You, on the other hand, do.

Good luck.

[Jon Tucker]

I spend alot of time on a Rallying forum, and your points Rotordog, are very similar to those given by the regulars to newbies that post asking for advice on how to start out.

If you want me to explain myself fully then you'll have to buy me a pint coz I cant be bothered to argue it out here!

It may be all irrelavant anyway. Since I have tinitus, I probably dont meet the MEL requirements for CPL(H)!

[Flingwing207]

And if I had it to do all over again, would I? That's kind of a moot question, because I never had the choice in the first place.

Heh, heh. Kinda funny, 'dog. What, you were threatened with death if you didn't become a pilot?

Anyway, great description of your experiences, now I'll throw in my 2 cents. BTW, the following is not a response to the previous post, but is prompted by seeing so many such posts in so many forums.

Whenever somebody asks "should I become a helicopter pilot?", they get a pile of responses saying no, it sucks, no pay, danger, divorce, bla bla. Then the folks working so hard to dissuade you end with "but I keep doing it because I have to".

Hmmm. Why do the "have to"? Well perhaps,

A) They have no other marketable skills. Fair enough - all you know how to do is fly, so this "suck" job is still more acceptable than any other work you could get. Or,

B) They can't quit because they actually LIKE their work. So why don't they want you to join the profession? Perhaps they're worried that somehow you'll get ahead of them, get that cream job which should have been theirs. Perhaps they're waiting for the long-forecast pilot shortage to actually arrive - and your entry into the industry just delays that day. Perhaps they're afraid that you'll discover that it isn't quite as awful as it seems to them.

I don't really know why else someone would be so adament in telling people to avoid a profession, when at the same time, they don't leave it themselves.

If all you know how to do is flying helicopters, you can learn to do something else. If you already know how to do something else, you can learn to fly helicopters - if it isn't what you want, you can do something else! If you go into debt to learn to fly, so be it. If you have to do something else besides flying to pay off the debt, oh well!

Just so you know, I quit a most excellent job which I guarantee almost anybody would love doing (and the pay was pretty good too). I took the money I had saved, went to Titusville and learned to be a CFII(R-H). Now I make just enough to pay the rent and buy some food, miss my old job but am having a great time learning new skills and a new profession. Given where I am in my life, it is unlikely I will rise as far in this industry as I did in my last vocation, but that won't stop me from trying. Aviation won't make me divorce my wife, because I'd happily divorce aviation if that was the only option.

I also doubt I will ever find myself in a pilot job over someone else more deserving, so all you long-timers can rest easy. If you think that my becoming a CFI is reducing your paycheck, then my apologies, but not only will I keep working, I'll do my best to keep all my students excited about becoming professional pilots. Supply and demand is only part of a wage equasion, folks - consider L.L. Bean's original business model: a quality product at a good price. Or put another way, you get what you pay for.

Bottom line - do what you want to do, and as Rotordog suggested, do it with your eyes wide open.

[Jon Tucker]

They are open, I promise!

[Whirlybird]

This isn't in answer to anyone's post specifically but might be relevant. I recently changed flying schools as the CFI of the last one hated my guts. Why, I kept asking myself. I moved heaven and earth to get on with him, and as regulars on this forum know, I can be tactful and gracious...when I want to be! But nothing worked. Basically he was jealous - because I had another career to pay the bills when the weather was bad and there were no students, because I instruct part time because I love it, because I get on well with students and they kept coming back. He could do nothing but fly helicopters, and if he liked students - or liked anyone - he hid it very well. Things went from bad to worse on the personality-clash level, and I found another job and left.

I still can't quite believe what happened last week! He flew into my new airfield, and went to the helicopter school. My new CFI says he appeared to have gone there purely to whinge and whine about me! Can you believe it? He hated me, told me to go, I went, and he follows me to complain about me.

Anyway, the only explanation is that this is a sad confused soul who would like to be doing something other than instructing in a small helicopter school in the winter, but he can't. And he resents the fact that I can. Me, I'm grateful that I can afford to enjoy instructing, despite the fact that today I just about covered expenses.

For the record, I phoned the owner of the first school, whose comment was: "Oh, we can't have that; this industry is too small for that kind of thing". He had the sense to see that it wouldn't help any of us. But it's a small industry, and while I'm glad my present employer doesn't take the attitude that there's no smoke without fire, some people may. This may not help me at all, just when I'm making some headway in a new career. Do I care? Yes. But will it affect my ability to pay the bills? No.

I won't spell out any morals of this tale, but I just thought some of you might like to hear it.

[copterfamily]

Live the dream my friend

Dear Mr Tucker,

You will always get alot of folks whose galsses are always half empty. As Flingwing says, why they are still doing such a dead end job is anyones guess.

My suggestion is to give it a go. Life is not a rehersal, you won't take your wealth or your debt with you when you buy the big one - but you can spend the last part of your life wondering "what if?"

I gave it all up, sold the lot and went overseas to pursue the dream of flying Helicopters for a living - and now here I am, at the bottom of the ladder and now working my way up and smiling every minute of the day.

My suggestion to you is to work out first where in the helicopter insudtry you want to end up. Do you want to work overseas, or stay in the UK. Once you have made that decision, do the licence for that country.

The facts about doing a JAA license in the USA are long and arduous, and you can PM me if you want a British Guy currently in the states opinion. Much of the training options need to be weighed up carefully, assessed in the cold light of day and then the decision made. But believe me - once you get thopse ratings - wow, it is SOOOOO COOOL.

Keep your glass half full mate - its worth every penny.

[hencloud]

Jon

I have been flying since 1997. This probably does not qualify me to give advice since it is such a short time compared to many others on this site.

If you want to make it as a helicopter pilot as I see it nowadays you have 4 options.

1. Go back in time to when you were 18. Get a job in a flying school cleaning down planes, helicopters and basically brown nosing the instructors to get half an hour lesson here or there. Borrow from the bank and make your self nearly bankrupt to get the ratings. At 18 to 30 you wont mind living in a squat and eating beans on toast every night and not having a social life.

2. Do all of these things at your current age but don't expect to hang onto any self respect, your wife, your house, your nice car.

3. Sell your sole to the armed forces and get Joe Bloggs to fork out for your training.

4. Win the lottery or make loads and loads of money doing something else before you even set foot in a helicopter. Buy all your ratings and hours and sit pretty waiting for the jobs to come in, because with that many ratings and without the pressure of borrowing money it basically becomes a hobby and the jobs will come in.

On top of this your require the following characteristics.

1. Utter selfishness.
2. Utter ruthlessness.
3. The ability to act (smile when your world is faling apart).
4. Deal with bailiffs and county court judgements against you.
5. Be prepared to die relatively poor.

The irony is is that actually flying the bloody machines is the easiest part of all.

Enjoy!

[Jon Tucker]

Its incredible how similar this all sounds to the form of motorsport I've been partaking in the last 4 years or so!....

1) The amount of money required.

Think of a figure at the beginning of the season and double it, and you'll still be nowhere near the actual amount of money you'll actually spend. This obviously comes along with the whole baliff/court proceedings thing, and believe me, I've got the T-shirt.

2) MIDS (Motorsport Induced Divorce Syndrome)

I've never been married but I've lost a couple of partners to this (you would think I would have learnt by now!), and I know many other people who've experienced it. Of both genders!

3) Frustration

It seems in aviation you have the frustration of not being able to find a job after you've forked out for your ratings. In motorsport, the frustration comes from spending hundreds of hours and pounds (approx 3k PER RALLY) preparing the car, organising your team, booking accomodation etc, only to retire within a mile of the start line because your gearbox breaks. This also relates to henclouds mention of 'Acting'! There is a major difference here in that there are probably only a dozen jobs driving a rally car in the whole world.

4) Medicals

Yep, Yep, Just the same, one toe nail out of place and thats your lot.

5) Danger

I have had friends that have been very seriously injured and 1 that died in a rally car. One thing I dont understand is why, if anyone thought about that when they got in a car, would they still do it? I dont think about that in the car, EVER. Same for choppers I guess, Rotordog?


The question is WHY ON EARTH would anybody want to do such a thing? Its because its awesome and once you've done it once you HAVE to do it again. Why aren't I doing it anymore? Because believe it or not, its actually more expensive than flying and the sponsors a few and far between these days.

Anybody want to take up rallying? Yes, of course they do.

My point is that, sorry, but YOU'RE NOT SCARING ME

EDITED...

I'm only peeking through the letterbox of Chez Aviation at the moment, and sure, it looks tough, but a lot of things are. If it was easy what whould be the point of doing it?

[The Rotordog]

Jon Tucker:

My point is that, sorry, but YOU'RE NOT SCARING ME

I don't think anyone is trying to scare you, Jon. Just trying to give you some perspective and insight. F'rinstance, you wrote:

have had friends that have been very seriously injured and 1 that died in a rally car. One thing I dont understand is why, if anyone thought about that when they got in a car, would they still do it? I dont think about that in the car, EVER. Same for choppers I guess, Rotordog?

Wrong! I think about all of my friends who've died every time I strap on the bird. I think about all the other accidents I've heard or read about or studied. Like the guy I knew who had a clutch failure and did not recognize the symptoms in time to expeditiously lower the collective pitch. When they pulled his helicopter out of the water, the main rotor blades were barely damaged, indicating that they were barely turning at all upon impact. He lived. His passenger did not.

I think about the close-calls I've heard about too, the ones that somehow...miraculously did not end in a fatal accident. Like the friend of mine who accidently flew into a cloud over the swamps of south Florida one dark, dark night and got his BK-117 inverted. Inverted in a helicopter is when you, for the instant that you have left to live, think to yourself, "That's it, I'm dead." Fortunately for my friend, he managed to get it upright a moment before hitting the ground and wrecking the ship. Had he been in anything but a BK, he would probably not be here to tell the story.

I think about these things all the time, not in an emotional, obsessive, depressed way, but primarily so I do not repeat them. Accidents happen to the best pilots. We must study those that have already happened, even if it is sometimes gruesome. Why or how do I still fly? Sometimes it is not easy. But I think about these things and I make a conscious self-committment to *not* make those same mistakes as the ones who came before me. Remember, wings and rotorblades and tailbooms do not fall off (unless you're in a 407 that is). Catastrophic structural failures are rare. The majority of aviation accidents are pilot-related. We're human. We make mistakes. So learn from the mistakes of others, KEEP THEM IN MIND! And hopefully you can avoid making the same one.

I have said that I did not have a choice other than to become a helicopter pilot. Flingwing207 wondered:

What, you were threatened with death if you didn't become a pilot?

What I meant was that for me there was never anything else I wanted to do more than fly! My destiny was to do this (father handing down the flying genes helped). I can never remember a time when I ever waffled when asked the question, "What do you want to be when you grow up, Rotorpup?"

So for me there was no choice. This was what I was going to do, and for better or worse, by God this is what I've done. Fortunately, I've done some other things along the way. Flying these contraptions is not and has never been my sole-source of income - just my primary source until recently.

Guys like Jon are the ones who have a choice. He obviously chose to do something else with his life at first, and now thinks he'd like to "try" being a commercial pilot. That's the difference between him and me, and that's all I was trying to point out.

Flying helicopters for money is great fun, I'd never deny that. And it is not my intent to discourage anyone from becoming a pilot either recreationally or commercially. Far from it, in fact. Is it do-able? Sure! Obviously! That is not in question.

My posts merely focus on Jon's stated motivation. Commercial aviation is not something you "try on" like a new pair of jogging sneakers to see if you'll like them. Aviation requires a committment that goes beyond the "that looks cool!" mindset. It's easy for one to claim that they have the necessary dedication and committment. We can only hope that for their sake it is true. The fact that Jon ditched not only a pretty cool hobby but also his main job is telling. And I still maintain that someone who is unhappy and dissatisfied in one career will not find happiness or satisfaction in another. Then again, I've been wrong before...

[Jon Tucker]

What I actually said was... "try and become" not, as you seem to have understood, "try being". A fundamental difference.

I also said I'm sick of my current career, and I am. It doesn't challenge me the way it used to, in fact after 12 years, its become quite boring. Recently, it has been a means to an end and my hobby has provided the challenges. Since thats not the case now, its time to change it.

I haven't 'ditched' anything. I simply cant fund the hobby, which I love, anymore. I have had sponsors in the past but now I do not. I could get a PPL and hire an aircraft for 2 hours every weekend for year, for half the money I spent this year on rallying.

My motives were nothing to do with my original post. I wanted some advice, not a psychological profile of myself. I dont appreciate your "ditched hobby, quit main job" comment Rotordog, you have no idea. I can assure you I am not the type of person that buys a guitar, plays it once or twice and then never picks it up again. Quite the opposite in fact, if I do something, I give 100%.

You do not know how I have arrived at this decision so please, spare me your analysis.

Oh... the "your not scaring me thing" wasn't serious (thats what the smileys are for!!)

Is the whole "remember those that died" thing common in aviation? because this really is quite strange for me. When I take risks (sometimes BIG risks) in a rally car, they are calculated, and the consequences are only thought of as 'consequences'. not what might actually happen.

[Whirlygig]

Risks

I think this might be a fundamental difference between rallying and flying; with flying, you don't take risks and always think through to what might happen.

When a pilot does something that has an element of risk to it, you will find that he is quite often lambasted on these pages (viz., Air Ambulance/Audi/flowing river scenario) by some rotoheads.

Jon, If you are planning on going down the modular route (i.e. PPL first, hour building, CPL/ATPL), then just simply get your PPL and worry about the hundreds of decisions that need to be made concerning that. Then you will have a lot more experience and knowledge to decide how you want to proceed to the next step. For a start you need to think about

1. Which country
2. Which aircraft
3. Full-time/part-time tuition

There are past threads here on all these subjects.

Once you have your PPL and have a little more understanding about day-to-day heli-ops, then you can decide whether you want to continue - you will find that most Police/HEMS pilots sit around on their backsides most of the day, drinking tea and playing cards. Not much excitement there.

If you want to go down the integrated route (i.e. from ab-initio to frozen ATPL in one full-time course), then you need to do all your research up front.

However, and I mean this kindly, if you want to be taken seriously, your attitude to risk must change; nobody would employ a pilot who thinks the way you do. And yes, Rotordog's philosophy is very common amongst rotary pilots.

You don't have to justify yourself to any of us Jon, but, I'm afraid to admit that your posts come across as being a little starry-eyed about the business. Spend some time with some heli-ops; see whether it is the sort of thing you would enjoy otherwise, stick to a PPL, have fun flying occassionally when the weather is nice and you don't have to put the aircraft back!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlybird]

With respect, Rotordog and Whirlygig, I think you're being a little unfair to Jon here. I've met a lot of PPRuNers, and they're often totally different from their posts. That includes one who was really, really slammed on PPRuNe quite recently for seeming immature, ignorant and unrealistic. You'll all remember his name if I tell you...but I'm not going to. Anyway, I met him recently, and he's not at all like that; he's mature, sane, level-headed, and a hell of a nice guy. And he says he's left Rotorheads, partly because of the way he was treated...and who can blame him?

I have a degree in psychology, and for my sins I've worked as an occupational/vocational psychologist, and I can't tell if anyone should be a helicopter pilot just by reading their posts! So take it from me, neither can you. So telling someone that this industry is tough and not as it seems is sensible - I do that - but I'm sorry, friends, telling them that you know that they shouldn't go for it is just....well, I think I've spelled it out, haven't I?

Jon, several things I think Whirlygig is right about though. Firstly, if you do a search on here, you'll find loads of threads on where to train, the pros and cons of the US and the UK, etc. Secondly, do it in stages, looking at the PPL first. People often look too far ahead, when your plans and ideas can change as you learn more, meet more people, find out about helicopter flying and about yourself, etc etc etc. And to go back to your first post, cost is really not everything - check out the reputation of the school, and most importantly, if you get on with them and with your instructor; more important than it might seem.

If you've got any more specific questions, I'll be happy to answer them if I can.