Life Vest / Survival Gear Discussion...
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Life Vest / Survival Gear Discussion...
Looks like I'll be spending more time over bay areas and intercoastal waterways. So, I'm putting together a life vest / survival gear package (just in case). Now, I won't be doing any long distance flights like you GOM and North Sea pilots; nevertheless, I'm trying to put something together for the long term that works. Below, I've listed the items that I've recently purchased (so far). What I'd really like to know is what you folks use for your lifevest and on-person suvival gear?
By the way, I have NO affiliation with any of these companies. Names have been removed...
HV-35C Spec-Ops Vest
(Improved Version of Helicopter Crew Vest)
HEED III
(Helicopter Emergency Egress Device w/ Refill Adapter. This particular model fits in the holster of the Crew Vest shown above).
GyPSI EPIRB
(406 Mhz Satellite, 121.5 Homing, Data Cables to Upload GPS Data)
Firefly 2
Rescue Laser Flare Magnum
(Provides a beacon that is easily seen at night or in limited visibility).
See-Rescue Streamer
(I'm getting the Mil-Spec version w/ Retro Reflective Material. These small units come in many sizes, but I'm getting the 6" x 40' version. They float on water and stay unrolled.)
I'll probably use Lithium batteries instead of alkaline, and I have yet to put together a small waterproof survival kit (mirror, whistle, knife, fire, etc). On the vest itself, I plan to put a seat belt cutter attached with a retractable cord (just in case). I'm still researching small flashlights and pyrotechnics. In fact, I'm not so sure pyrotechnics are a good idea in the vest - but I've been told otherwise.
Comments? Any advice from the SAR side of PPRuNe?
By the way, I have NO affiliation with any of these companies. Names have been removed...
HV-35C Spec-Ops Vest
(Improved Version of Helicopter Crew Vest)
HEED III
(Helicopter Emergency Egress Device w/ Refill Adapter. This particular model fits in the holster of the Crew Vest shown above).
GyPSI EPIRB
(406 Mhz Satellite, 121.5 Homing, Data Cables to Upload GPS Data)
Firefly 2
Rescue Laser Flare Magnum
(Provides a beacon that is easily seen at night or in limited visibility).
See-Rescue Streamer
(I'm getting the Mil-Spec version w/ Retro Reflective Material. These small units come in many sizes, but I'm getting the 6" x 40' version. They float on water and stay unrolled.)
I'll probably use Lithium batteries instead of alkaline, and I have yet to put together a small waterproof survival kit (mirror, whistle, knife, fire, etc). On the vest itself, I plan to put a seat belt cutter attached with a retractable cord (just in case). I'm still researching small flashlights and pyrotechnics. In fact, I'm not so sure pyrotechnics are a good idea in the vest - but I've been told otherwise.
Comments? Any advice from the SAR side of PPRuNe?
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Hi RDR,
That looks pretty comprehensive!
A package like that would sure inspire some confidence on some of those long overwater flights. Could you give us some idea of the total cost?
The only other thing I'd like to see included is 'Shark Repellant".
Cheers.
That looks pretty comprehensive!
A package like that would sure inspire some confidence on some of those long overwater flights. Could you give us some idea of the total cost?
The only other thing I'd like to see included is 'Shark Repellant".
Cheers.
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RD
Have you had a look at Doug Ritter's 'Equipped to Survive' site? Loads of good info on survival equipment there and some good evaluations of new kit. Follow this link and if you contact him tell him the www.SARworld.com team sent you.
http://www.equipped.com/home.htm
Have you had a look at Doug Ritter's 'Equipped to Survive' site? Loads of good info on survival equipment there and some good evaluations of new kit. Follow this link and if you contact him tell him the www.SARworld.com team sent you.
http://www.equipped.com/home.htm
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life vest/survival gear
Is your aircaft going to have a raft and survival gear for passengers aboard? Are you going to have a float equiped aircraft? What are you going to carry in your vest that may be redundant? The equipment you carry may be in the aircraft survival kit. You might want some redundant items, maybe not.
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Sometimes simpler is better. You might be surprised how useful a garbage bag can be. Get a big yellow one, so it can be seen, & it can be used for signaling, flotation, warmth, shark protection, holds more vomit than your pax can put out, and the possibilities are endless. A garbage bag, a mirror, and maybe an LED flashlight, and you probably have enough to survive in the bay until you're found. The rest is nice if you already have it, but think about how you'll carry it - it gets hot in the summer, and it's always heavy, and hot and heavy can translate into "won't wear it", & what you don't have strapped to your body likely won't be with you in the water.
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Updates & Answers...
Lowlevldevl,
Hopefully this equipment will increase chances of survival in a ditching situation; however, safety equipment is meaningless if you don't actually train for that emergency. For example, I've never used a HEEDs device before. So, I got the refill adapter so I can practice taking it out the vest and using it under water.
To answer your question, here is the MSRP cost (in U.S. dollars):
HV-35 SPEC-OPS with HEEDS Holster pocket - $475
GYPSI 406 PLB With GPS Interface - $589
HEED III with Dial Gauge - $327
Scuba Refill Adapter for HEED III - $78
Firefly 2 - $99
Rescue Laser Flare Magnum - $108
See-Rescue Streamer (Mil-Spec Version) - $96
Total - $1772 (ouch!)
It's definately expensive! Still, better safe than sorry. I'm still putting the "survival" portion of the package down. My goal is to get everything into this vest without making it too bulky or heavy. I haven't decided on flashlights, pyrotechnics, or other items. However, I've added the following as of today:
3" x 5" Signal Mirror - $23
(This unit is plastic and floats. More importantly, it rates 70-80% of the reflection that a glass mirror has. The U.S. Air Force standard issue unit is less than 40 percent!)
Extreme Krill Lamp - $25
(Provides up to 50 hours of illumination compared to a 12-hour cylume stick - which may have already expired. It uses batteries, so you can turn it on and off to save your batteries for nightime use - unlike chemical sticks. It's water proof up to 150 feet.)
Funny about the Shark Repellant! There's no such thing as a fool-proof shark repellant, and I really don't have the room for those items. Now, if I was near Panama or some other infested place, I'd reconsider. I guess this is one of those choices you have to make. (Sound of me knocking on wood here).
Arctic Tern,
Yup, I've been to the Equipped To Survive website. I just sent Doug Ritter an e-mail (& website contribution), so I'll be sure to pass your message along when he replies. Great information, but each situation is slightly different.
LMCCOY,
The aircraft has floats, but no life raft. We don't really go out that far, and the vest I'm putting together is probably over-kill for my application. However, I figured if I was going to put something together that I should do it right and be done with it. That way when one of you kind soles offer's a seat on one of your sorties, I'll be prepared!
Gomer Pylot,
Good advice about the garbage bag. Ya, I'm trying to keep things simple and light. The picture doesn't show it, but there is actually quite a bit of room in the vest. That said, I want to make certain that I don't fill it up completely.
What recommendations do you folks have about Flashlights, Folding Knives, and Pyrotechnics (if any)?
Hopefully this equipment will increase chances of survival in a ditching situation; however, safety equipment is meaningless if you don't actually train for that emergency. For example, I've never used a HEEDs device before. So, I got the refill adapter so I can practice taking it out the vest and using it under water.
To answer your question, here is the MSRP cost (in U.S. dollars):
HV-35 SPEC-OPS with HEEDS Holster pocket - $475
GYPSI 406 PLB With GPS Interface - $589
HEED III with Dial Gauge - $327
Scuba Refill Adapter for HEED III - $78
Firefly 2 - $99
Rescue Laser Flare Magnum - $108
See-Rescue Streamer (Mil-Spec Version) - $96
Total - $1772 (ouch!)
It's definately expensive! Still, better safe than sorry. I'm still putting the "survival" portion of the package down. My goal is to get everything into this vest without making it too bulky or heavy. I haven't decided on flashlights, pyrotechnics, or other items. However, I've added the following as of today:
3" x 5" Signal Mirror - $23
(This unit is plastic and floats. More importantly, it rates 70-80% of the reflection that a glass mirror has. The U.S. Air Force standard issue unit is less than 40 percent!)
Extreme Krill Lamp - $25
(Provides up to 50 hours of illumination compared to a 12-hour cylume stick - which may have already expired. It uses batteries, so you can turn it on and off to save your batteries for nightime use - unlike chemical sticks. It's water proof up to 150 feet.)
Funny about the Shark Repellant! There's no such thing as a fool-proof shark repellant, and I really don't have the room for those items. Now, if I was near Panama or some other infested place, I'd reconsider. I guess this is one of those choices you have to make. (Sound of me knocking on wood here).
Arctic Tern,
Yup, I've been to the Equipped To Survive website. I just sent Doug Ritter an e-mail (& website contribution), so I'll be sure to pass your message along when he replies. Great information, but each situation is slightly different.
LMCCOY,
The aircraft has floats, but no life raft. We don't really go out that far, and the vest I'm putting together is probably over-kill for my application. However, I figured if I was going to put something together that I should do it right and be done with it. That way when one of you kind soles offer's a seat on one of your sorties, I'll be prepared!
Gomer Pylot,
Good advice about the garbage bag. Ya, I'm trying to keep things simple and light. The picture doesn't show it, but there is actually quite a bit of room in the vest. That said, I want to make certain that I don't fill it up completely.
What recommendations do you folks have about Flashlights, Folding Knives, and Pyrotechnics (if any)?
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You'll never have time to grab anything unless you're wearing it, so the vest is the way to go.
LED flashlight that is waterproof, lots to choose from, last forever.
Knife must be instantly accessible and in the same spot always - ie: on your flightsuit or belt - I like the spyderco folding half serrated with blunt nose to cut seat belts - their belt clip is the best I have seen, tight, easy to replace and doesn't come loose.
Sky Blazer twin star flare 4" long, hand launch - a couple
I keep the flare, matches, candle, some first aid, survival blanket in a Coghlan brand 4 1/2 x 5" waterproof pouch, 1 1/4" thick, that fits in a pocket (or vest), which I keep with me ALL the time so I will always have it wherever I end up. It's cheap insurance.
You didn't mention it, but the life vest cannot be self-inflating - most heli ones are not - if they are and inflate prior to exiting, you're stuck.
If you wear a helmet, get an extension to the cord as the 90 degree pull on the helmet cord at the plug in point, when you are getting out underwater will keep your helmet & head & body from exiting. The short extension will keep the helmet cord and extension in a straight line and will unplug easily.
Best insurance is HUET training, underwater egress - got to take that over some of the other equipment - if you can't get out, you can't use the goodies.
Good luck
LED flashlight that is waterproof, lots to choose from, last forever.
Knife must be instantly accessible and in the same spot always - ie: on your flightsuit or belt - I like the spyderco folding half serrated with blunt nose to cut seat belts - their belt clip is the best I have seen, tight, easy to replace and doesn't come loose.
Sky Blazer twin star flare 4" long, hand launch - a couple
I keep the flare, matches, candle, some first aid, survival blanket in a Coghlan brand 4 1/2 x 5" waterproof pouch, 1 1/4" thick, that fits in a pocket (or vest), which I keep with me ALL the time so I will always have it wherever I end up. It's cheap insurance.
You didn't mention it, but the life vest cannot be self-inflating - most heli ones are not - if they are and inflate prior to exiting, you're stuck.
If you wear a helmet, get an extension to the cord as the 90 degree pull on the helmet cord at the plug in point, when you are getting out underwater will keep your helmet & head & body from exiting. The short extension will keep the helmet cord and extension in a straight line and will unplug easily.
Best insurance is HUET training, underwater egress - got to take that over some of the other equipment - if you can't get out, you can't use the goodies.
Good luck
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I'm in a fix to find a comfortable life-jacket. Anybody know where I can find one similar to MOD issue or French Aeronavale as I'm told they're not bad at all.
I seem to fly over water more than land these days!
I seem to fly over water more than land these days!
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One other thing to consider. You're equipped to be found from when you crash until 50 hours (2 days) later. If the water temperature is 10C (50F) then you won't be alive after 50 hours. If this is so, then maybe some of the money should be spent on a survival suit. Mustang is a good place to start, I'm sure there are many others.
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Mustang Survival also makes the "Air Force" inflatable vest - very comfortable Model MD3012.
Mustang has a wide variety of survival suits, including a Nomex suit. They have to have sufficient bouyancy to keep a person afloat but not too much to prevent egress - there is a formula they use for that. The standard floater suits are no good, just like an inflated life jacket. All the survival suits get very warm.
Mustang has a wide variety of survival suits, including a Nomex suit. They have to have sufficient bouyancy to keep a person afloat but not too much to prevent egress - there is a formula they use for that. The standard floater suits are no good, just like an inflated life jacket. All the survival suits get very warm.
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More updates...
Unless there are any objections, I'll keep this thread going with updates from time to time concerning the evolution of the life vest above. After more research and comparisons, Doug Ritter's article is spot on in several ways. Specifically, I'm going to follow the same recommendations and attach the following LED to the zipper with a gear keeper (shown below)...
Keychain Light - $10
(Waterproof LED light w/ changeable batteries).
Gear Keeper - $25
(Attaches to vest and holds items, like LED light, on retractable cable. I'm also going to put one of these on the right hand side to keep a Seat Belt Cutter in easy reach).
E2E Flashlight - $95
(6 volt lithium system - very bright).
Now, I'm down to deciding on a folding knife, pyrotechniques, and mini-survival kit. I'll look into the thermal suit. Thanks for the feedback... keep those recommendations coming!
Keychain Light - $10
(Waterproof LED light w/ changeable batteries).
Gear Keeper - $25
(Attaches to vest and holds items, like LED light, on retractable cable. I'm also going to put one of these on the right hand side to keep a Seat Belt Cutter in easy reach).
E2E Flashlight - $95
(6 volt lithium system - very bright).
Now, I'm down to deciding on a folding knife, pyrotechniques, and mini-survival kit. I'll look into the thermal suit. Thanks for the feedback... keep those recommendations coming!
RD, definitely do as squirrel suggests and get on a HUET course -if possible get them to allow you to use your HEED bottle as well. I have just completed my 2 yearly Huet/STASS (same as HEEDS) training in the dunker and it is still valuable even after doing it for the last 20 years. As someone pointed out (squirrel again I think) if you can't get out then all the survival kit in the world is useless. Being underwater in a helicopter is very disorientating and it is easy to get stuck - the latest statistics suggest that 65% of people die needlessly in a helicopter ditching, it's not the impact that kills them just lack of training!
As for the rest of your kit - very nice indeed, if only the military thought the way you do!
As for the rest of your kit - very nice indeed, if only the military thought the way you do!
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HUET/HABD
Yes a good selection of gear will certainly increase your survival chances once in the water.
For those that have undertaken HUET training will testify that if its not on you once you hit the water, then it won't be going with you.
Yes I agree it may be "heavy", but you don't have to run around the track with it, usually just sitting in a control seat....or if in the water its normally close to neutral bouyancy.
My last HUET refresher in Aberdeen, involved HABD training, which in my view was extremely worthwhile. Despite having an extensive diving background, this experience was enlightning, particularly with no face mask to stop those bubbles going straight up your nostrils....great fun not!!!
For those that have undertaken HUET training will testify that if its not on you once you hit the water, then it won't be going with you.
Yes I agree it may be "heavy", but you don't have to run around the track with it, usually just sitting in a control seat....or if in the water its normally close to neutral bouyancy.
My last HUET refresher in Aberdeen, involved HABD training, which in my view was extremely worthwhile. Despite having an extensive diving background, this experience was enlightning, particularly with no face mask to stop those bubbles going straight up your nostrils....great fun not!!!
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EPIRB Choices...
It's funny that you mentioned the GPS/PLB scenario... I was just thinking about that. I have a Garmin 196 Aviation GPS that I usually take with me, and can upload information to the PLB from that. However, I also came to the conclusion that it is unlikely that I would have time to disconnet the GPS from the top of the instrument panel and take it with me if I had to ditch. So, I'm thinking about putting a small, waterproof GPS in my vest so that I can upload coordinate information to the PLB. I'm still thinking about that one.
Concerning the choice of PLB, I selected the GyPSI because of submersion ratings, power output, and battery life. I could have purchased a PLB with an integrated GPS (like Fastfind Plus), but I like to keep systems separate in the event of a single component failure. Besides, the GyPSI is a pretty rugged PLB and happens to fit perfectly in the left pocket of my vest (behind HEEDs III).
I've had a few people tell me that I should also carry a radio, but I think that is over doing it. I've got a hand-held radio/VOR, but it's too big and too heavy to put in my vest. That said, I wish they made a small hand-held GPS with integrated radio. Garmin has two models, but they use the family radio fequencies only (useless for aviation needs).
So, I'm considering adding a small, hand-held, submersible GPS to the vest to upload coordinate information to the PLB. It would be nice to see where the currents are drifting me and I'd have an idea of my own location over time. That may or may not be useful... it may be useless. I haven't really decided.
Please, toss in your 2 cents (anyone)...
Concerning the choice of PLB, I selected the GyPSI because of submersion ratings, power output, and battery life. I could have purchased a PLB with an integrated GPS (like Fastfind Plus), but I like to keep systems separate in the event of a single component failure. Besides, the GyPSI is a pretty rugged PLB and happens to fit perfectly in the left pocket of my vest (behind HEEDs III).
I've had a few people tell me that I should also carry a radio, but I think that is over doing it. I've got a hand-held radio/VOR, but it's too big and too heavy to put in my vest. That said, I wish they made a small hand-held GPS with integrated radio. Garmin has two models, but they use the family radio fequencies only (useless for aviation needs).
So, I'm considering adding a small, hand-held, submersible GPS to the vest to upload coordinate information to the PLB. It would be nice to see where the currents are drifting me and I'd have an idea of my own location over time. That may or may not be useful... it may be useless. I haven't really decided.
Please, toss in your 2 cents (anyone)...
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More updates & GPS compatibility...
Well, after looking at several Seat Belt Cutters, I decided they probably couldn't adequately handle aircraft webbing. Specifically, the $5 pieces of plastic I found had a small razor embedded in them that would probably work great for thin automobile seat belts, but not aircraft seat belts. So, I decided to take the advice posted earlier about folding knives and went with the following:
Rescue Junior Folding Knife - $49
To answer some of the recent PM's concerning "where" I purchased the components listed above, please see the following websites:
Concorde Aerosales
Malcolm Murray
Kriana
Pocket Lights
Amazon
Sure Fire
Spyderco
By the way, Malcolm Murray is an older gentleman and kind of a technology neophite (doesn't take credit cards). However, he was very pleasant to talk to and will offer more advice on signal mirrors than you probably wanted to know! You should shop around, I bought the Spyderco from Amazon because they had a pretty good sale.
Concerning GPS compatibility with PLB's (using the NMEA 0183 optical standard), I couldn't find a list of Garmin Submersible GPS units that reflect their most recent product line. The E-trex is compatible (and cheap), but it isn't submersible - only waterproof. I just sent a request to Garmin for an updated list, and will post their reply when I get one. For compatibility, you must have an NMEA 0183 output ready GPS unit and a GPS interface cable. The NMEA 0183 optical interface connector supplied with your PLB must be connected to the GPS interface cable. Some GPS units require you to program "header" or "message" information to meet the proper format (codes).
(edited to update URL)
Rescue Junior Folding Knife - $49
To answer some of the recent PM's concerning "where" I purchased the components listed above, please see the following websites:
Concorde Aerosales
Malcolm Murray
Kriana
Pocket Lights
Amazon
Sure Fire
Spyderco
By the way, Malcolm Murray is an older gentleman and kind of a technology neophite (doesn't take credit cards). However, he was very pleasant to talk to and will offer more advice on signal mirrors than you probably wanted to know! You should shop around, I bought the Spyderco from Amazon because they had a pretty good sale.
Concerning GPS compatibility with PLB's (using the NMEA 0183 optical standard), I couldn't find a list of Garmin Submersible GPS units that reflect their most recent product line. The E-trex is compatible (and cheap), but it isn't submersible - only waterproof. I just sent a request to Garmin for an updated list, and will post their reply when I get one. For compatibility, you must have an NMEA 0183 output ready GPS unit and a GPS interface cable. The NMEA 0183 optical interface connector supplied with your PLB must be connected to the GPS interface cable. Some GPS units require you to program "header" or "message" information to meet the proper format (codes).
(edited to update URL)
Last edited by RDRickster; 14th Nov 2003 at 08:09.
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RDRickster'
If you're THAT paranoid about surviving a ditching, maybe you should get a job in the desert.
All those gadgets are great, BUT, get out, stay afloat, set off your beacon. I don't really mean any offence but I think you're making it more complex than it needs to be. I'll bet you a million bucks now that you never get to be in a situation where being able to upload GPS data to a PLB is going to make the difference to saving your life.
The vest is essential, the strobe is essential, the PLB is essential, ........the rest is just toys.
Less is more. If you were spending the majority of your flying way out over the North Sea, then I would understand but that isn't how it reads. Keep it simple.
You DID ask!
If you're THAT paranoid about surviving a ditching, maybe you should get a job in the desert.
All those gadgets are great, BUT, get out, stay afloat, set off your beacon. I don't really mean any offence but I think you're making it more complex than it needs to be. I'll bet you a million bucks now that you never get to be in a situation where being able to upload GPS data to a PLB is going to make the difference to saving your life.
The vest is essential, the strobe is essential, the PLB is essential, ........the rest is just toys.
Less is more. If you were spending the majority of your flying way out over the North Sea, then I would understand but that isn't how it reads. Keep it simple.
You DID ask!
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Attention to detail...
Lowlevldevl, you are right (to a point)...
Yes, I would agree with you that this equipment is more than what is required for the intended application... today. Nevertheless, I'm planning on a worst-case scenario so that I will already be prepared for other missions... tomorrow.
I wouldn't say that I'm "paranoid" about ditching or flying at all. I would say that I have a healthy dose of respect for the aircraft and the environment in which I fly (and may fly in the future). Hopefully, I've demonstrated the proper attention to detail... not paranoia. With development, that will make me a better pilot, no?
Finally, there are ONLY two pockets on this vest (and a HEEDs holster). The equipment I've listed is very light weight and small in size. So, we aren't really talking about a lot of gear here... it just looks that way on the forum. Your point about over-thinking the situation is well-received, but anything worth doing is worth doing correctly. Which is why I'm taking the time to research options and discuss it with the professionals on this forum. I've gotten several e-mails from PPRuNer's about the configuration of the vest and other recommendations, so it seems to be a topic of interest.
For Those Who Are Interested,
I'm leaning more against pyrotechnics at all. To be effective, you have to carry a lot of flares. Pocket rockets are okay, but they are not submersible and they have limited range and burn time. The XLT Marine rockets seem to be the best choice for a vest, but they take up valuable space and you can't carry that many. I think with the rescue streamer, lights, and PLB that I will be in good shape. I'd rather use the rest of the available space for survival gear (water, fire, etc) and maybe a small GPS.
So, I'm temporarily going to "table" pyrotechniques until I get the more important gear in place. Concerning training, I've been looking at some HUET courses. They aren't that expensive for an entire day of training - less than $200 or so. However, there doesn't seem to be anything close to my location. Any recommendations for HUET training in the Mid-Atlantic region?
Yes, I would agree with you that this equipment is more than what is required for the intended application... today. Nevertheless, I'm planning on a worst-case scenario so that I will already be prepared for other missions... tomorrow.
I wouldn't say that I'm "paranoid" about ditching or flying at all. I would say that I have a healthy dose of respect for the aircraft and the environment in which I fly (and may fly in the future). Hopefully, I've demonstrated the proper attention to detail... not paranoia. With development, that will make me a better pilot, no?
Finally, there are ONLY two pockets on this vest (and a HEEDs holster). The equipment I've listed is very light weight and small in size. So, we aren't really talking about a lot of gear here... it just looks that way on the forum. Your point about over-thinking the situation is well-received, but anything worth doing is worth doing correctly. Which is why I'm taking the time to research options and discuss it with the professionals on this forum. I've gotten several e-mails from PPRuNer's about the configuration of the vest and other recommendations, so it seems to be a topic of interest.
For Those Who Are Interested,
I'm leaning more against pyrotechnics at all. To be effective, you have to carry a lot of flares. Pocket rockets are okay, but they are not submersible and they have limited range and burn time. The XLT Marine rockets seem to be the best choice for a vest, but they take up valuable space and you can't carry that many. I think with the rescue streamer, lights, and PLB that I will be in good shape. I'd rather use the rest of the available space for survival gear (water, fire, etc) and maybe a small GPS.
So, I'm temporarily going to "table" pyrotechniques until I get the more important gear in place. Concerning training, I've been looking at some HUET courses. They aren't that expensive for an entire day of training - less than $200 or so. However, there doesn't seem to be anything close to my location. Any recommendations for HUET training in the Mid-Atlantic region?