Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Bell 407 down off Queensland coast

Wikiposts
Search
Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Bell 407 down off Queensland coast

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 19th Oct 2003, 20:58
  #21 (permalink)  
High Nr
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
S76Heavy

I happen to agree totally with your observation, but have received a number of decenting PM's for my seemingly innocent comments.

There are a number of world class HEMS operations around Australia. These are all Multi Engine IFR Operations.

Then there is the next level down, which is operated by a group of Professional Pilots flying substandard equipment for the tasks that are sent their way [and the reason I am aware of this? I left, before I was to a statistic].

I am not casting doubts on any of the crews, or that engineer who signed the machine servicable, but rather the faceless individuals that are behind the scence, that allow, promote and legislate to permit such pressures to be placed on the crew.

You think this may be rubbing a raw nerve, then just wait until the team of Barristers gets their day in court, and watch these faceless individuals duck and weave.

Unfortuantely it won't assist this crew, but hopefully we will see something positive eventuate for me losing another collegue.
 
Old 20th Oct 2003, 05:49
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Citizen of the globe
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No doubt the how and why will come out in the wash.
My thoughts are with the families of the deceased.
Andy was a nice young man who was too young to die.

RIP
Garry M is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 08:05
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia sometimes
Posts: 103
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Unhappy

S76Heavy
Totally agree with your "rant". Lots of us are hurting.
All to often the tasking agencies don't fully apreciate the limitations of particular equipment / operations and therefore the "go/no-go" decision comes back to the crew. How many times have we all looked back on a particular flight and in the light of day realised that we probably made the wrong call. (Just because we didn't have an accident didn't make it right!)
Unfortunatley the high level of skill & professionalism amongst most operators often masks the limitations of the equipment they are given to do the job with.
My 2 cents worth.
Scattercat is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 12:06
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,051
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I bumped into Andy a long time ago. Very sad.

It strikes me that there is very little wrong with the flying a single engine machine on this type of work. Nick can provide us with the stats....

No doubt it was equiped for NVFR/IFR work but was the pilot.

NO DISRESPECT here....don't go blasting me for this. Like I said.....I knew Andy as an associate as most pilots out of NZ do.
There are very few of us that haven't bumped into each other. The list of pilots I have met that now rest below our land is starting to become scary.

I fly with a lot of guys who have brand new IFR tickets. I used to be one of them. Very few of these guys would survive minutes in an IFR environment without someone to show them the ropes. Fortunately I had a bunch of very experienced lads teach me a thing or two...cheers Bakes, DC, BM, SD.
It is one thing to have bombed around on the sim and the heli simulating this but entirely another to be out doing it. As we all know the ticket is a licence to learn IFR. Do I hear a round of "Amens...."?

The reason I asked the question regarding the WX was obviously to accertain whether this was a time when more of the IFR skills were needed as opposed to the NVFR. If you haven't got a lot of time up on the clocks in cloud then offshore at night without a horizon is paramount to dangerous.

We have a bunch of Northern bases up here in CA that we service 24/7. It is so black without moonlight that once you lift off from the lit area it is like flying in outer space. You have to be on the clocks or you are dead. Technically it is planned as VFR but it is 100% IFR. I take my hat off to the pilots at these bases. I certainly notice the intensity of the workload when I am asked to fill in for a night shift up there. You cannot do this work with only a NVFR rating or a basic IFR without experience.

The trend in Queensland is testimony to this.

RIP Andy Carpenter.
Steve76 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 13:06
  #25 (permalink)  
M/V
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Eastcoast
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Steve76,

I realise this is a `rumour' network but arn't you a little premature in saying the accident in Qld was pilot error? The gist of your post made it pretty obvious that you believe this accident was pilot error, none of us know what happened that night and it's pretty poor taste to speculate and discredit someone who recently died.
M/V is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 13:49
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: 48 Deg South
Posts: 764
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
M/V - From the info I got it would seem, and I only say SEEM, that it was CFIT, or in this case CFIW.

Part of the info I received was that there was no maday call, according to ATC, and that according to those on the scene it hit very hard and very shallow. Bodies had to be identified by DNA and dental records because of the force of the impact.

Now I am not an accident investigator and have no desire to say if it was Andy's fault or mechanical failure. He was a really nice guy, good at his job but the only person that can really tell us 100% what happened is not alive to do so.

Finding the cause will allow all minds to be put at rest. The one thing that surprises me though is that Andy had just been working for Marine Helicopters doing marine pilot transfers over the same piece of ocean so was up to speed on night VFR but close friends of his said he didnt have an IFR rating. Does this make a difference, I dont honestly know as I am not a commercial pilot. Only those on this forum that fly that patch can answer that with accuracy.

I do know that this is yet another sad loss for the Aussie industry. Young, dedicated pilots with a passion for this industry are few and far between, without losing them like this.

Andy will be sorely missed, will he be the last, I doubt it.

Autorotate.
Autorotate is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 14:46
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think what we need to do is not speculate on this particular accident because at present we don't know exactly what went wrong.
What we should be discussing is why in this day and age there are non-IFR pilots flying around Australia (and the world) in single engine, non-IFR aircraft, single pilot in IFR conditions.
They are flying in NGT VMC conditions but without ground or celestial illumination.
Flying off the coast of Australia with no moon is IFR.
Bat63 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 15:25
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: 48 Deg South
Posts: 764
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just another rumour that I got via text message from friends in QLD. Apparently, according to Brisbane ATC, the 407 lost height very abdruptly from its cruising alt of 1500 ft to just above sea level in very very quick time, estimates of about five to six seconds.

Those that know the aircraft and its performance capabilties might be able explain what might have caused this. This throws doubts on the pilot error scenario in my opinion.

Autorotate.
Autorotate is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 15:31
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question Twins 'v' singles

Having flown and trained many pilots in a single engine helicopter over water, at night for the last 7 years. I need to quash the whole "it wouldn't happen in a twin" cr@p. Read the crash comics on the super puma with check and training captains at the wheel? It still hit the water!

From current IFR Twin Captains to guys just obtaining their night ratings, there has been no real difference in how they fly once we get out to the "black" and approach the ship. Evetyone makes the same mistakes.

It all comes down to currency/training. Not the size or number of engines.

RIP Andy & crew.
Russ Reilly is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 15:46
  #30 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ABC News online
Scanners to help with helicopter search

High-tech scanning equipment is to be used in the search for vital components of the Rescue helicopter which crashed off the central Queensland coast on Saturday, killing all people three on board.

Investigators are still trying to locate the rotor transmission and engine which separated from the helicopter on impact.

Air Transport Safety Bureau spokesman Alan Stray says an American investigator with extensive underwater recovery experience has flown to Mackay to assist with the salvage operation.

"Our team has been looking at the currents trying to establish where the floating path or the track of the helicopter from the initial impact so between the Australian expert and the American investigator we do hope to locate those components within the next 24 to 48 hours," Mr Stray said.

The bodies of two of the men have been found and a search is continuing for the third man.

Last edited by Heliport; 21st Oct 2003 at 01:32.
Heliport is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2003, 22:09
  #31 (permalink)  
High Nr
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Heliport.......

You certainly know how to stop a discussion...............

We in Oz pride ourselves on taking the hard hits, even when we loose our friends under such circumstances.

If you divert this thread, then you will loose the vital input that may save the next crew from the same fate.

In case you are unaware, in this area of Oz, there has been eight fatalities, and the loss of at least five airframes in the last four years.

There is a lot of expertise and information that has yet to surface here..........

Leave it alone, we are all big enough to read and accept the facts [assuming it is fact]...

But I do agree....its far to early to look at pilot error....perhaps we should look at why BHT has despatched their expert on tailrotor failures to the area.
 
Old 21st Oct 2003, 01:31
  #32 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Never been accused of that before. I was actually trying to bring more people into the discussion.
I know from experience that many people are very reluctant, out of respect for a deceased pilot, to join in a discussion about possible causes on a thread which reports a crash when the facts aren't known. That's a perfectly reasonable approach, and is why I posted a link to a recent discussion on s/e night VFR which wasn't related to a particular incident.
ie If it turns out to be mechanical failure, it's a bit rough on the memory of the pilot if people assume it was pilot error, even in difficult conditions.

I appreciate your input, will assume it reflects the majority view and delete the link.

Heliport
Heliport is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2003, 04:38
  #33 (permalink)  
"Just a pilot"
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jefferson GA USA
Age: 74
Posts: 632
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
First, I have no idea what happened in this case. In response to the posts touting heavy metal as the answer, I have to agree with Russ Reilly. As long as the aircraft is properly equipped, the pilot is prepared and a realistic plan to accomplish the flight is in place, the number of engines is not material. A good autopilot is a significant advantage over a second engine.

I'm less enthusiastic at the idea of night, over water, single engine. Forced landings to the water are problematic in the day time-I'd hate to try it at night.

Offshore is different. The weather is different, less convective-except when it's more so. The "look" is different. It's hard to explain, but not having a positive visual altitude reference seems to make down an imprecise term- you could be inches or tens of feet up. Look down on your next flight, you'll see the surface whizzing by with a rate of closure difference fore and aft, and as it moves by laterally. That's not as definite a data source over water, at least not with the precision your mark-1 eyeballs are used to interpretting.
Lose your "down" and a horizon, you're IFR. Some days, it could be a thousand feet and it looks like inches until you sight something to reference by scale. If you don't have a well defined horizon, you'll find yourself hunting in pitch before you realise conditions aren't what the numbers present.
Devil 49 is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2003, 19:23
  #34 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ABC News Online
Review urged for helicopter rescue missions

There has been a call for a review into the use of in-flight medical missions in the wake of last Friday's rescue helicopter crash off Mackay which claimed the lives of three men.

Doctors and medical specialists have questioned what they feel is the over use of Air Rescue helicopters and small planes for relatively minor emergencies.

Australian Doctors Fund Queensland chairman, Dr Chris Alroe, says a better risk assessment plan must be implemented to avoid the senseless loss of life.

"It's not good procedure to take single engine helicopters across large bodies of water," he said.

"Alternative means of ground or sea transport should be employed before we take these risks. All of this is causing a degrading of regional health services, what we need to do is rethink the whole process."
Heliport is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2003, 22:18
  #35 (permalink)  
High Nr
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Shoot from the Hip Doc!!

Wait until you know the facts Doc.

What if wasn't an engine failure???? whats your view then Doc?

In all these accidents, not one has been caused by a mechanical Engine Failure.

Lets not get medical people telling aviation people whats required in our aircraft fit.

One, two or three engines arn't going to help if your tail falls off Doc, and sure you are now going to put a person with a broken leg [and yes a fractured leg with Haemodynamic deteriotion can indeed be life threatening], in a bumpy old boat.

Don't change the system, Improve the existing system!
 
Old 23rd Oct 2003, 09:23
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia sometimes
Posts: 103
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Question

And just how exactly do you assess the relative risk between using a modern helicopter (either S/E or M/E) operated by experienced crews, to other forms of transport. Boat / road ambulance etc? Surely they all come to grief at one time or another. Statistics don't tell the whole story.

High Nr
You're correct about the accidents (not commenting on this current one) not being caused by engine failures ... however in some way were't the capabilities of the particular A/C exceeded for the particular task being undertaken? If so this then comes back to a systemic problem and you're right ... we must "improve the system". From appropriate use (tasking) of all assets to providing the appropriate equipment for the job.
Scattercat is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2003, 12:29
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: australia
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Heliport,

Any discussion on night vfr by single pilots should be welcomed, especially those over water.

Maybe then sanity will prevail if all the information is made known.

My personal records are a pretty good indication that standard operating procedures for such flights are in need of major reinforcing.

The defenition of night vfr used to be navigation under visual flight rules with reference to the ground or water. i can't find that defenition anywhere anymore.

Flying into black holes without adequate instruments is flying blind. No matter how good a pilot you may be.

I was once given the opportunity to participate in an FAA demo on vertigo or loss of spatial awareness at John Wayne Airport in Orange County. I died in about thirty seconds with minimum instruments once the work load was increased on me.

These pilots and crew who are no longer with us might still be here if the aircraft they were in were better instrumented and proper training of crew kept up to date. I'm not saying it wasn't in this recent case, nor do i intimate that the pilot was not the most professional.

The recent Central Queensland accident causes have yet to be determined but a long descending left turn into water (the radar track) has all the hallmarks of spatial disorientation.

We have a right to comment as the reputation of our industry is at risk, doctors and nurses are worried, next the patient might refuse to get in.
deeper is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2003, 15:30
  #38 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
deeper

I agree entirely. Far from trying to stop discussion, I was trying to encourage it. The link I deleted, at High Nr's request, was to a discussion we had a few months ago:
Reasons not to fly a VFR only, Single-engined helicopter offshore at night.

It was an excellent discussion with many superb posts. Members who joined after June may not have seen it.
If anyone wants to read it, the link is here.

Last edited by Heliport; 23rd Oct 2003 at 15:54.
Heliport is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2003, 19:16
  #39 (permalink)  
High Nr
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Deeper--Words CASA find to hard these days....

Those words that used to guide pilots in making the harder decisions have indeed been withdrawn from the CASA and Air Services Documents:

But for those of us that fly the B206 series, look on Page One of the Limitations Section of your Flight Manual, under Night Flight Limitations. And remember this is a limitation by the Manufacture.
 
Old 23rd Oct 2003, 21:13
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Awstraya
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
High Nr

"and yes a fractured leg with Haemodynamic deteriotion [sic] can indeed be life threatening" - fine, but a stabilised tibia/fibula fracture in a good splint in an otherwise well young adult is *not* an emergency - I've personally been involved in taking folk out with fractured femurs from remote islands in "bumpy old boats" (yes in traction, yes with IV line in, yes with a nerve block in for the pain) because there was no other way. It's not a no-no.....

There are fractures and there are fractures (....many fractures can wait for a week or so and be still set/treated quite successfully (true!)) and I for one do not pretend to know what type the one in this case was.

But, the fact seems to be that the Hamilton Island pt was evac'd the next morning, and furthermore there was no use that night of other possibly available fixed wing acft from TVL, RK or BUD into a long strip with lights and a GPS and VOR/DME appch on a night that wasn't too crappy for IFR flight. To me that implies that they were were perhaps not dealing with a life/limb threatening event, as the other available agencies would have picked up and filled that tragic gap, as they have done in the past.

Whenever I had to assess a call for assistance in the dark hours, the one of the first questions was - can it wait until daylight? Aircrew are more alert, aeromedical crew are more alert, and the receiving hospital is more likely to have it's "A" team on...all has to be balanced against the pain being suffered and the likelihood of an adverse outcome if there is any delay. On top of this the possible medevac modalities have to be considered, along with their costs and risks, especially added risks of night travel, wheter by air, sea or land. It's not straightforward, there is scant statistical analysis of the relative risks available, but doctors/nurses (and others) who often have to go along on the serious flights have a right to say how their lives are risked or otherwise.

Again, in aeromedical work, sometimes things are done because they can be done, not because they should be done.....yes it's faster, yes it's more exciting, yes it's sexier, yes it has saved lives... and yes it can have grave risks and has a higher cost per life saved than virtually any other medical modality.

Safe flying

NOtimTAMs

PS And in case you think I'm arguing for twin engine, twin pilot ops for all circumstances-- I'm happy in my private flying time to fly single pilot, single engine IFR at night in an aircraft I know the maintenance history of - but that's my choice, knowing the risks - I wouldn't force that on anyone else.
NOtimTAMs is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.