Flaps extension
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 34
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From: Europe
Flaps extension
A passenger story which I consider worth sharing with you.
Happened on 6 January at SVO. I was a passenger on a Boeing 737-300 of a European airline (I will not name it, to avoid any bias). Due to light snow, the departure from the gate is delayed for about 1 hour, while the services are cleaning the runway.
Finally, we are leaving the gate and de-icing is performed.
Soon after, we are heading towards the runway. I notice that the flaps are not extended. As normally at this stage they should be, I leave my seat, approach a flight attendant sitting at the back, and tell him my worries.
He gets up, looks through the window at the back of the wing, then goes towards the front of the plane and looks at the wing from the front. "It's ok, it's only 5 degrees. Anyway, the front is more important than the back", he tells me.
Well, I never heard about front flaps on a 737, nor about 5 degrees... Yet he is a professional, and who am I? So I sit down and worringly await our takeoff.
There is a queue for takeoff, plus the same runway is used for landing, so we spend another 30 minutes waiting on a taxiway.
"After one more landing, we will be taking off", announces the Captain.
Finally, it's our turn for takeoff. The plane is about to enter the runway... and the flaps extend! Probably the captain wanted to avoid icing, delaying it to the last moment.
A relief... Still, I later tell the attendant that the flaps were only extended immediately before takeoff, so he was not right. "Might be. Anyways, the guys know what they're doing", he says.
End of story. Not wanting to blame anyone - just for discussion.
Happened on 6 January at SVO. I was a passenger on a Boeing 737-300 of a European airline (I will not name it, to avoid any bias). Due to light snow, the departure from the gate is delayed for about 1 hour, while the services are cleaning the runway.
Finally, we are leaving the gate and de-icing is performed.
Soon after, we are heading towards the runway. I notice that the flaps are not extended. As normally at this stage they should be, I leave my seat, approach a flight attendant sitting at the back, and tell him my worries.
He gets up, looks through the window at the back of the wing, then goes towards the front of the plane and looks at the wing from the front. "It's ok, it's only 5 degrees. Anyway, the front is more important than the back", he tells me.
Well, I never heard about front flaps on a 737, nor about 5 degrees... Yet he is a professional, and who am I? So I sit down and worringly await our takeoff.
There is a queue for takeoff, plus the same runway is used for landing, so we spend another 30 minutes waiting on a taxiway.
"After one more landing, we will be taking off", announces the Captain.
Finally, it's our turn for takeoff. The plane is about to enter the runway... and the flaps extend! Probably the captain wanted to avoid icing, delaying it to the last moment.
A relief... Still, I later tell the attendant that the flaps were only extended immediately before takeoff, so he was not right. "Might be. Anyways, the guys know what they're doing", he says.
End of story. Not wanting to blame anyone - just for discussion.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,331
Likes: 486
From: England
Further to that, the 737 does have both slats and flaps on the leading edge of the wing. Five degrees of flap wouldn't be very noticeable from the cabin, but the leading edge devicew would be extended. Still, good action to bring it to the crew's attention.
Last edited by Herod; 8th January 2013 at 14:24.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
From: fort sheridan, il
you were perfectly right to ask.
the flight attendant should have called up to the cockpit via interphone/intercom (not PA) and as time permitted, the cockpit crew should have come up with a reasonable answer.
Indeed, it is our company procedure to anticipate the question and explain that in ICING conditions, the configuration is selected closer to the runway than during normal conditions.
While the FA is right, the front flaps (really called leading edge devices, among other things) are more important than the trailing edge flaps, they are both important.
I was deadheading on a 737 at a time when I was on a different type and had not yet flown the 737. We were at San Francisco, California flying in rainy weather...NOT ICING and the taxi was unusually long going to runway 10s and the flaps were not set. I was in uniform and asked the FA to remind the crew...FA came back and said that the procedure in icing conditions was to delay flap selection...I reminded the FA that it was raining and NOT NEAR the freezing point. Flaps were selected shortly after I asked.
Another time, in perfectly beautiful weather well above freezing in Boston, with a known exceptionaly short taxi, I was deadheading, again in uniform, again in a 737, the flaps were not set and we lined up with the runway...I was close enough to the cockpit that I knew I would hear the configuration warning horn as they advanced the throttles...I also had a plan that if we started to roll for takeoff and the horn didn't sound and the flaps didn't come down I would run up and pound on the cockpit door...
As I figured the power came up, the horn sounded, the power came down, the flaps came down, the power came up and off we went. When we got to the destination I read the riot act to the crew saying: on a short taxi, stop and do the darn checklist or I would report them to the boss. They came up with a LAME excuse which I wouldn't let them get away with, so I reported them. We changed the Boston procedure to do the checklist before calling for taxi clearance when certain runways were in use.
Delaying flap selection in icing conditions is considered OK for the 737...but in my two cases it was just dumb not to select the flaps early on...and it is very wrong to let any passenger feel uncomfortable about a safety concern.
A very unusual sequence of events happened on a 737 that brought so much attention to a problem that a VIDEO was made to explain the procedure to let the cockpit know something was wrong. IF I MAY
After the previous landing and selection of spoilers to help slow the plane after touchdown, the handle to retract the spoilers was activated ...but the cable from the handle to the spoiler system broke...yes BROKE...so the handle moved to the spoiler retracted setting AND THE SPOILERS DID NOT RETRACT. There isn't a positive feedback loop to detect spoiler position...the position of the handle is the only thing detected with a little spoiler deployed light.
So the plane parks, and a preflight is done by the same crew that brought the plane in...but the copilot couldn't see the top of the wing and didn't see the spoilers extended.
A deadheading crew in back DID see the spoilers extended and tried to make hand signals to the FA's to tell the crew, to no avail. So as the plane took the runway, they ran up to the cockpit and yelled to reject the takeoff, PREVENTING the plane from taking off with spoilers deployed.
Procedures were changed to include a visual inspection of the upper surface of the wing from the cabin after landing to verify spoiler position.
But a video was made and procedures for any question from the cabin regarding configuration or other safety concern to be addressed by FA's communicating with the cockpit crew.
AS a passenger, you have a right to a reasonable answer, and NOT just from a Flight Attendant. Politely request that the FA call the cockpit and address the situation.
I can think of one tragic crash in Detroit that would have been prevented if someone had spoken up...and every Deadheading pilot does look at the wings to make sure...just in case.
Our airline at one time flew a jet that didn't use flaps for takeoff...and we addressed this with a PA announcement every time explaing that this type of plane didn't use flaps for takeoff and that experienced travelers might have noticed!
the flight attendant should have called up to the cockpit via interphone/intercom (not PA) and as time permitted, the cockpit crew should have come up with a reasonable answer.
Indeed, it is our company procedure to anticipate the question and explain that in ICING conditions, the configuration is selected closer to the runway than during normal conditions.
While the FA is right, the front flaps (really called leading edge devices, among other things) are more important than the trailing edge flaps, they are both important.
I was deadheading on a 737 at a time when I was on a different type and had not yet flown the 737. We were at San Francisco, California flying in rainy weather...NOT ICING and the taxi was unusually long going to runway 10s and the flaps were not set. I was in uniform and asked the FA to remind the crew...FA came back and said that the procedure in icing conditions was to delay flap selection...I reminded the FA that it was raining and NOT NEAR the freezing point. Flaps were selected shortly after I asked.
Another time, in perfectly beautiful weather well above freezing in Boston, with a known exceptionaly short taxi, I was deadheading, again in uniform, again in a 737, the flaps were not set and we lined up with the runway...I was close enough to the cockpit that I knew I would hear the configuration warning horn as they advanced the throttles...I also had a plan that if we started to roll for takeoff and the horn didn't sound and the flaps didn't come down I would run up and pound on the cockpit door...
As I figured the power came up, the horn sounded, the power came down, the flaps came down, the power came up and off we went. When we got to the destination I read the riot act to the crew saying: on a short taxi, stop and do the darn checklist or I would report them to the boss. They came up with a LAME excuse which I wouldn't let them get away with, so I reported them. We changed the Boston procedure to do the checklist before calling for taxi clearance when certain runways were in use.
Delaying flap selection in icing conditions is considered OK for the 737...but in my two cases it was just dumb not to select the flaps early on...and it is very wrong to let any passenger feel uncomfortable about a safety concern.
A very unusual sequence of events happened on a 737 that brought so much attention to a problem that a VIDEO was made to explain the procedure to let the cockpit know something was wrong. IF I MAY
After the previous landing and selection of spoilers to help slow the plane after touchdown, the handle to retract the spoilers was activated ...but the cable from the handle to the spoiler system broke...yes BROKE...so the handle moved to the spoiler retracted setting AND THE SPOILERS DID NOT RETRACT. There isn't a positive feedback loop to detect spoiler position...the position of the handle is the only thing detected with a little spoiler deployed light.
So the plane parks, and a preflight is done by the same crew that brought the plane in...but the copilot couldn't see the top of the wing and didn't see the spoilers extended.
A deadheading crew in back DID see the spoilers extended and tried to make hand signals to the FA's to tell the crew, to no avail. So as the plane took the runway, they ran up to the cockpit and yelled to reject the takeoff, PREVENTING the plane from taking off with spoilers deployed.
Procedures were changed to include a visual inspection of the upper surface of the wing from the cabin after landing to verify spoiler position.
But a video was made and procedures for any question from the cabin regarding configuration or other safety concern to be addressed by FA's communicating with the cockpit crew.
AS a passenger, you have a right to a reasonable answer, and NOT just from a Flight Attendant. Politely request that the FA call the cockpit and address the situation.
I can think of one tragic crash in Detroit that would have been prevented if someone had spoken up...and every Deadheading pilot does look at the wings to make sure...just in case.
Our airline at one time flew a jet that didn't use flaps for takeoff...and we addressed this with a PA announcement every time explaing that this type of plane didn't use flaps for takeoff and that experienced travelers might have noticed!
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Germany
@ GarageYears
Right, three leading edge slats, but also 2 leading edge flaps per wing!
Right, three leading edge slats, but also 2 leading edge flaps per wing!
Last edited by Gerd53; 8th January 2013 at 15:02.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 3,423
Likes: 1
From: world
I'm so used to seeing the flap selection after PB and prior to taxi that to be honest I would have got anxious. Good to know it's SOP in icing conditions.
Your post was particularly interesting sevenstrokeroll and I thank you for it. I remember that I once got caught out with the Fokker 100. Luckily I had no time to make an ass of myself as we had started the roll when I noticed. I did experience a strange feeling in my posterior for a short while though!
Your post was particularly interesting sevenstrokeroll and I thank you for it. I remember that I once got caught out with the Fokker 100. Luckily I had no time to make an ass of myself as we had started the roll when I noticed. I did experience a strange feeling in my posterior for a short while though!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: Montreal
Flap extention etc
The passenger notifying crew of lack of flap extention was very much in his right to have done so and the crew member should have notified the crew as a standard procedure.
I remember very well a flight from Heathrow to Goteborg in a Trident some time after one bought the farm there because the flightcrew had not selected slats etc etc...................I read the preliminary investigation findings in Aviation Week on board the aircraft. Needless to say I made damned sure I saw the slats and flaps selected before take-off.
I remember very well a flight from Heathrow to Goteborg in a Trident some time after one bought the farm there because the flightcrew had not selected slats etc etc...................I read the preliminary investigation findings in Aviation Week on board the aircraft. Needless to say I made damned sure I saw the slats and flaps selected before take-off.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 85
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From: Alps
Well done, Nothrills! Takes some courage to get up and protest!
Another reason for not deploying the flaps until shortly before take-off is to prevent de-icing fluid from running off the flaps/slats due to the increased "slope" - an important factor in the hold over time (the timeframe where the deicing fluid gives you protection from precipitation).
Another reason for not deploying the flaps until shortly before take-off is to prevent de-icing fluid from running off the flaps/slats due to the increased "slope" - an important factor in the hold over time (the timeframe where the deicing fluid gives you protection from precipitation).
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 147
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From: Euroland
I remember reading an FAA document stating the calculated hold over time should be reduced by upto 50% if taxiing with flaps extended in freezing conditions. A lot of operators delay flap extension until at the holding point for that reason.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 0
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From: Home soon
Indeed, it is our company procedure to anticipate the question and explain that in ICING conditions, the configuration is selected closer to the runway than during normal conditions.
When we got to the destination I read the riot act to the crew saying: on a short taxi, stop and do the darn checklist or I would report them to the boss. They came up with a LAME excuse which I wouldn't let them get away with, so I reported them
If it had happened to you,would you have reported yourself to your boss?
I was deadheading on a 737 at a time when I was on a different type and had not yet flown the 737. We were at San Francisco, California flying in rainy weather...NOT ICING and the taxi was unusually long going to runway 10s and the flaps were not set. I was in uniform and asked the FA to remind the crew...FA came back and said that the procedure in icing conditions was to delay flap selection...I reminded the FA that it was raining and NOT NEAR the freezing point. Flaps were selected shortly after I asked.
but in my two cases it was just dumb not to select the flaps early on...and it is very wrong to let any passenger feel uncomfortable about a safety concern.
? Were you the captain?were you in charge? Or were you just a guy who caught a free ride?Maybe you were a distraction to the operating crew and therefore a safety hazard for your fellow passengers?
