747-200F down in Bogota ?
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And I just now noticed that reverser #1 (you can read it) is sprung way up in the air above the seat cushion. That's what happens when the reverser sleeve leaves, I found out one dark night out of JFK. So: three knobs in the foreground say "1" on them (at thrust lever Idle postition) and one knob says "2" on it (in the background behind the mike cord against the engine instruments.) Not drawing any conclusions, and I may be wrong about the trim motion from 18 years ago.
Somebody go flying and tell me how they rotate.
These are all just clues for us.
pac
(and I'd like to know what happens during an engine separation, never had one; do the cables just shear or do they move the throttles? What happened to the pilot that lost one over Michigan? Maybe someone can ask him?)
Somebody go flying and tell me how they rotate.
These are all just clues for us.
pac
(and I'd like to know what happens during an engine separation, never had one; do the cables just shear or do they move the throttles? What happened to the pilot that lost one over Michigan? Maybe someone can ask him?)
Last edited by pacplyer; 10th Jul 2008 at 01:29.
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The start levers do appear to be in the cut off position, but photos can be deceiving. Also for those of you non-74 drivers, the multiple engine failure checklist (memory items) include moving the start levers to cut-off then back to idle to attempt restart.
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Good point RAF,
I agree that cockpit control position observation is not definitive by any means; it is however part of all good early accident investigation and hopefully will be noted by the investigators. Your point is good that floor rigging might have been compromised below the upper deck control cable runs.
I agree that cockpit control position observation is not definitive by any means; it is however part of all good early accident investigation and hopefully will be noted by the investigators. Your point is good that floor rigging might have been compromised below the upper deck control cable runs.
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exRAFboy,
I agree with this very good point of yours as well. We don't know the source or time that this photo was taken, and rescuers could have moved something. The ship however is almost upside down. The control pedestal would effectively have been on the ceiling for egress rescue.
Agree we should wait for official info and make no conclusions from these photos.
Well done RAF.
I agree with this very good point of yours as well. We don't know the source or time that this photo was taken, and rescuers could have moved something. The ship however is almost upside down. The control pedestal would effectively have been on the ceiling for egress rescue.
Agree we should wait for official info and make no conclusions from these photos.
Well done RAF.
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pacific plyer & ExRAFboy,
I stand corrected. Having compared the Kallita F/D pic with an intact one (found here) it gets quite apparent your observations re start levers and thrust levers. Excellent marks on eyesight for you both
GD&L
I stand corrected. Having compared the Kallita F/D pic with an intact one (found here) it gets quite apparent your observations re start levers and thrust levers. Excellent marks on eyesight for you both
GD&L
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pacplyer
From testimony of a fellow crewman who was aboard the Evergreen incident (ANC), the thrust lever will violently slam back to it's stops during an engine separation. Pulled there through the attached cable motion of the falling engine.
(and I'd like to know what happens during an engine separation, never had one; do the cables just shear or do they move the throttles? What happened to the pilot that lost one over Michigan? Maybe someone can ask him?)
Last edited by L-38; 10th Jul 2008 at 23:30.
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Re. post #99 by SNS3Guppy, I feel sorry that I have to ignore it, for one basic reason:I did not say that "it's a company maintanence problem". What I did say is "Any idea what is happening here, two engines (and their corresponding aircraft) with the same operator in such a short term?"In my post #98 I was referring to in-flight shutdowns (IFSD), and was wondering if something could make the statistics work against the operator, not blaming maintenance, or operations, or anything else. Really, I was not expecting SNS3guppy dressed as if he were angryblackman to answer me.
Last edited by kwick; 10th Jul 2008 at 23:31.
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Does anybody else notice a lack of "obvious" fire damage? I don't see much in the way of scorched grass or as much burnt wreckage as you might expect. Is anyone able to make a educated guess at the fuel load at the time of the incident? Obviously there is evidence of small fires in places. I agree the engines don't appear to have much of the "rotary" damage you would expect if they were at full power as the went in.
Regardless, a major incident, amazing the crew were able to escape, and with a mercifully small loss of life on the ground. One would have to presume the crew did their best to choose an empty spot as best they could, I suspect t could have been alot worse, as I can see more buildings in the background of some of the other shots.
Regardless, a major incident, amazing the crew were able to escape, and with a mercifully small loss of life on the ground. One would have to presume the crew did their best to choose an empty spot as best they could, I suspect t could have been alot worse, as I can see more buildings in the background of some of the other shots.
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lomapaseo . . . didn't the local media say that it was closer to the township of Madrid, 16KM [10mi] west of BOG which is beside La Pincha [also an airstrip there]; if you zero in and click on the "blue dot" [photo enhanced version] at approx 4-43-40N and 74-15-44W you'll see an aerial photo of the town and surrounding area, . . . assuming that you have latest version of Google Earth.
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Thanks for the Google refs. From the photo, not the nicest terrain in the world (from an off field landing point of view anyway)! Then again is there ever a nice off field landing site when your AC is a 747?
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Lomapaseo - After reviewing several local newspaper and tv reports, I put it about 6 to 7 km WNW of your estimate, on the Casa Blanca farm (just outside of Madrid - Google Maps has it as La Pincha) between highway 50 and the Hacienda .
The Casa Blanca Hacienda is at 4º43'19.25"N, 74º15'42.91"W
A cab driver eyewitness was fueling at a petrol station and saw the power lines along the highway spark as they were hit just before the plane made contact with the ground. He stated he ran towards the hill (SW) as the plane broke up and caught fire. Enough flames to light up almost the entire 600 hectare farm. Upon reaching the cockpit, he and other farm workers unable to enter through window and desperately tried to break a larger window. They saw crew wearing oxygen masks.
I place the petrol station at 4°43'39.19"N, 74°15'21.29"W
First call to emergency responders received at 04:58. Among first responders were the firefighters of the nearby Maintenance Air Command of the Colombian Air Force, including a female member who was able to enter the open window to initiate an evacuation - one that took 1.5 hours total.
Front section of aircraft ended up 50m beyond and to the East of the rest of the wreckage.
Flight originated in Brasil with a load that included mobile phones, fabric, refrigerator parts and a VW. Stopped in Bogota to pick up the flowers and upload fuel.
Latest news reports are heralding the expertise of the crew for avoiding what could have been a catastrophic loss of life (Madrid has 70.000 residents).
Insert statement of choice regarding reliability of eyewitness & news reports.
The Casa Blanca Hacienda is at 4º43'19.25"N, 74º15'42.91"W
A cab driver eyewitness was fueling at a petrol station and saw the power lines along the highway spark as they were hit just before the plane made contact with the ground. He stated he ran towards the hill (SW) as the plane broke up and caught fire. Enough flames to light up almost the entire 600 hectare farm. Upon reaching the cockpit, he and other farm workers unable to enter through window and desperately tried to break a larger window. They saw crew wearing oxygen masks.
I place the petrol station at 4°43'39.19"N, 74°15'21.29"W
First call to emergency responders received at 04:58. Among first responders were the firefighters of the nearby Maintenance Air Command of the Colombian Air Force, including a female member who was able to enter the open window to initiate an evacuation - one that took 1.5 hours total.
Front section of aircraft ended up 50m beyond and to the East of the rest of the wreckage.
Flight originated in Brasil with a load that included mobile phones, fabric, refrigerator parts and a VW. Stopped in Bogota to pick up the flowers and upload fuel.
Latest news reports are heralding the expertise of the crew for avoiding what could have been a catastrophic loss of life (Madrid has 70.000 residents).
Insert statement of choice regarding reliability of eyewitness & news reports.
Last edited by Machaca; 11th Jul 2008 at 09:38. Reason: spelun
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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Little Rotational Damage
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Irrespective of the investigation, which could take long time to complete, the commercial iplications of losing two aircraft in as many months could be devastating to Kalitta. Current or future contracts can be termintated as customers (carriers using them under ACMI and brokers) fear their names may be associated with an aircraft accident.
This industry is all about reputation. Whilst the actual cause may have nothing to do with MX or crew actions most customers cannot await the outcome of the offical investigation and will take their business elsewhere in an effort to afeguard their interests. Not how it should be but it is how it is. Even if in 18months time when the investigators present their findings and state that the crew couldn't have done a more perfect job for now it is the Kalitta logo lying on it side in Bogata or broken up in BRU and this is what the customer sees and basis his decision on.
This industry is all about reputation. Whilst the actual cause may have nothing to do with MX or crew actions most customers cannot await the outcome of the offical investigation and will take their business elsewhere in an effort to afeguard their interests. Not how it should be but it is how it is. Even if in 18months time when the investigators present their findings and state that the crew couldn't have done a more perfect job for now it is the Kalitta logo lying on it side in Bogata or broken up in BRU and this is what the customer sees and basis his decision on.
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"Little Rotational Damage"
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During the flare, just prior to touchdown, the operating engines would normally be at idle thrust.
SkyGod
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Having flown flowers out of Bogota over a hundred times in the Classic I am not surprised to see on crash after take-off like this one.
Everything is balls to the walls and every limit is reached and sometimes exceeded, all of that at high elevation and at night when the crews are dog-tired and should be in bed.
The engine out procedure is confusing at best, and don't work too good as some of the beacons needed to fly the procedure are out of service or too weak to pick up.
Even with 4 engines turning we had a terrain warning during clean-up after a BOG departure.
A company I worked for lost a 747-200 in MDE as the Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1 and the crew did not get the airplane stopped.
YouTube - Tradewinds Boeing 747 Rejected Takeoff Crash
Turns out Kallitta had overhauled the engines we used on the classics.
Perhaps there is a trend here, Brussels and all...?
Everything is balls to the walls and every limit is reached and sometimes exceeded, all of that at high elevation and at night when the crews are dog-tired and should be in bed.
The engine out procedure is confusing at best, and don't work too good as some of the beacons needed to fly the procedure are out of service or too weak to pick up.
Even with 4 engines turning we had a terrain warning during clean-up after a BOG departure.
A company I worked for lost a 747-200 in MDE as the Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1 and the crew did not get the airplane stopped.
YouTube - Tradewinds Boeing 747 Rejected Takeoff Crash
Turns out Kallitta had overhauled the engines we used on the classics.
Perhaps there is a trend here, Brussels and all...?