Who reads notams?
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There is such a thing as scan-reading, where through time one can pick out fairly quickly the bits of information, as CI300 says, if you read them often enough the relevant bits shine through.
My initial tirade on this thread was due to the context of the first post, which does suggest that speedalive pretty much dismisses NOTAM's from the start because, hey, someone's bound to tell you along the way what you need to know. The way it reads does not lend to a very professional approach to pre-flight planning IMO.
Naturally there is a lot of info that isn't going to affect the price of fish that much, it takes a moment to know what to look for.
I'm amused that I'm getting harangued for seemingly being the only idiot to actually read the info provided. Thought it would've been the other way around........
My initial tirade on this thread was due to the context of the first post, which does suggest that speedalive pretty much dismisses NOTAM's from the start because, hey, someone's bound to tell you along the way what you need to know. The way it reads does not lend to a very professional approach to pre-flight planning IMO.
Naturally there is a lot of info that isn't going to affect the price of fish that much, it takes a moment to know what to look for.
I'm amused that I'm getting harangued for seemingly being the only idiot to actually read the info provided. Thought it would've been the other way around........
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I seem to remember from the human factors courses that the human brain finds it hard to take in alot of text that is all in block capitals, SO WHY ARE ALL THE PAGES OF NOTAMS WRITTEN IN BLOCK CAPITALS?
We also need a little common sense in what is listed. Heading of to BCN the other week, there was about a page and a half of taxiway and stand closures, all sorts of valid froms and tos, over different dates and periods. For the same day, EMA had the simple note that 'at various times, certain taxiways and stands will be closed. ATC will advise'. That's more like it!
We also need a little common sense in what is listed. Heading of to BCN the other week, there was about a page and a half of taxiway and stand closures, all sorts of valid froms and tos, over different dates and periods. For the same day, EMA had the simple note that 'at various times, certain taxiways and stands will be closed. ATC will advise'. That's more like it!
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Some time ago the runway at Oporto had some big holes dug in it, and this was notammed. Not easy to spot amongst all the other bumph, but we did spot it, threshold displaced by over 1000feet. As we landed there the holes 3m x 3m x1m and associated spoil heaps were virtually invisible and the marking of the shortened runway pathetically inadequate. We remarked that we hoped everyone had read the notams...and on our return trip, guess what? Someone hadn't! A very sad little turbine twin (Embraer?) absolutely trashed and runway closed for hours.
You bet I read every notam!
You bet I read every notam!
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AB,
I think thats the point most people are trying to make.
You spotted the releveant runway info hidden away amongst all the other, largely irrelevant junk. Lucky (or rather very professional) you
The turbo prop crew obviously didn't.
I try to scan through them all but in the 10 minutes I have available in the crew room its difficult...ours are not pre-filtered and sorted.
I agree that it would be far better if the info was better prioritised to make it easier for us to spot.
DV8 Nice one
I think thats the point most people are trying to make.
You spotted the releveant runway info hidden away amongst all the other, largely irrelevant junk. Lucky (or rather very professional) you
The turbo prop crew obviously didn't.I try to scan through them all but in the 10 minutes I have available in the crew room its difficult...ours are not pre-filtered and sorted.
I agree that it would be far better if the info was better prioritised to make it easier for us to spot.
DV8 Nice one
Last edited by Orp Tolip; 20th Feb 2007 at 14:51. Reason: 'cos i didn't read properly the first time
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I got caught out once on final trying to ident the Localiser which wasn't making sense. Asked the tower what was up and they said 'Oh its being calibrated and is not working properly'. Had to quickly revert to an NDB app. I definitely scan the NOTAMS now...
I recently saw a NOTAM stating that migrating Geese would be crossing my final approach track at 500ft AGL. How do the Geese get permission to do that?
I recently saw a NOTAM stating that migrating Geese would be crossing my final approach track at 500ft AGL. How do the Geese get permission to do that?
The one that always amused me years ago on the NOTAMS was "Pilots ECL" - I hadnt a clue what this meant so asked the Ops guy at the Indian airport we were departing from - "Oh that means Pilots to exercise caution on landing" - "Thats funny" I said "we always do that!"
Seriously though I think the situation with NOTAMS is quite appalling - we have to wade through all sorts of tripe and somewhere buried in there is something like "Airport Closed" etc. Its all a question of the airports covering themselves I think - they can say, well we told the pilots because its in the Notams.
We live in a world now where we are swamped with information but starving for wisdom!
Seriously though I think the situation with NOTAMS is quite appalling - we have to wade through all sorts of tripe and somewhere buried in there is something like "Airport Closed" etc. Its all a question of the airports covering themselves I think - they can say, well we told the pilots because its in the Notams.
We live in a world now where we are swamped with information but starving for wisdom!
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Preflight.
1 wx
2 dep notams
3 arrival notams
3 alternate notams
4 Decide on fuel.
5 (1 to 4 about 10 mins) go to aircraft.
6 during cuise review the dross that isnt in items 1 to 4 paying particular
attention to the possible bollox churned out by some jar states (OLA amigo)re beacons etc that is just not true.
7 Count myself lucky that cyprus and turkey dont still publish their ridiculous childish and dangerous spat in the form of notams anymore.
Come on guys unless your on a new route /destination ie ad hoc its not rocket science.
1 wx
2 dep notams
3 arrival notams
3 alternate notams
4 Decide on fuel.
5 (1 to 4 about 10 mins) go to aircraft.
6 during cuise review the dross that isnt in items 1 to 4 paying particular
attention to the possible bollox churned out by some jar states (OLA amigo)re beacons etc that is just not true.
7 Count myself lucky that cyprus and turkey dont still publish their ridiculous childish and dangerous spat in the form of notams anymore.
Come on guys unless your on a new route /destination ie ad hoc its not rocket science.
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-----------------
quote:
Who cares if a taxi way is blocked, whether they have moved the de -icing pad, or even if the ground frequency has changed - all of that will become obvious once you land or ask to taxi - what's more important are factors that WE REALLY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT - and my point is that these should be HIGHLIGHTED rather than hidden in the small print.
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Regarding the highlighted text I can tell you about a problem we had in BBU airport. There was a NOTAM that anyody read or toke into account. That NOTAM was telling us that a taxiway was being closed. Well, who cares if a taxiway is blocked? I will answer you that question: if you are flying an aircraft with a nose steering limitation, you should, because that taxiway was allowing us to exit the runway as no turning pad was available. This is an important item to take into account, as the aircraft was flying to an airport that could not provide any chance to perform a 180º turnaround due to that limitation.
quote:
Who cares if a taxi way is blocked, whether they have moved the de -icing pad, or even if the ground frequency has changed - all of that will become obvious once you land or ask to taxi - what's more important are factors that WE REALLY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT - and my point is that these should be HIGHLIGHTED rather than hidden in the small print.
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Regarding the highlighted text I can tell you about a problem we had in BBU airport. There was a NOTAM that anyody read or toke into account. That NOTAM was telling us that a taxiway was being closed. Well, who cares if a taxiway is blocked? I will answer you that question: if you are flying an aircraft with a nose steering limitation, you should, because that taxiway was allowing us to exit the runway as no turning pad was available. This is an important item to take into account, as the aircraft was flying to an airport that could not provide any chance to perform a 180º turnaround due to that limitation.
The NOTAM for Lexington (KLEX) 31 Aug 2006 seems rather important in hindsight.
08/035 - 8/26 CLSD WIE UNTIL UFN
08/023 - 22 ILS GP OTS 18 AUG 13:30 UNTIL UFN
08/007 - 4/22 RCLL OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
08/005 - 4 ALS OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
07/013 - 4 TDZ LGT OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
There is a justifiable argument to make NOTAMs easier to read. With modern technology, it must be possible to communicate more clearly – use pictures even.
08/035 - 8/26 CLSD WIE UNTIL UFN
08/023 - 22 ILS GP OTS 18 AUG 13:30 UNTIL UFN
08/007 - 4/22 RCLL OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
08/005 - 4 ALS OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
07/013 - 4 TDZ LGT OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
There is a justifiable argument to make NOTAMs easier to read. With modern technology, it must be possible to communicate more clearly – use pictures even.
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The NOTAM for Lexington (KLEX) 31 Aug 2006 seems rather important in hindsight.
08/035 - 8/26 CLSD WIE UNTIL UFN
08/023 - 22 ILS GP OTS 18 AUG 13:30 UNTIL UFN
08/007 - 4/22 RCLL OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
08/005 - 4 ALS OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
07/013 - 4 TDZ LGT OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
08/035 - 8/26 CLSD WIE UNTIL UFN
08/023 - 22 ILS GP OTS 18 AUG 13:30 UNTIL UFN
08/007 - 4/22 RCLL OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
08/005 - 4 ALS OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
07/013 - 4 TDZ LGT OTS WIE UNTIL UFN
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Whilst it is understandable that some parts of the NOTAMs may not be read in depth (particularly all the crap in the FIR that isn't within 100 miles of anywhere you're going to be, even if it all goes TU), it never fails to disappoint when on the very first call to ATC on the morning some plum embarasses themself by not even knowing what the NOTAMs are for their own base, like ATIS not broadcasting. Even more disappointing when said NOTAMs run to just 3 items.
"XXX tower, we can't get anything on the ATIS. IS there a problem?"
"Yes, the ATIS is u/s. It's on the NOTAMs"
"Oh"
Of 9 aircraft, we had a 33% failure rate this morning due plums.
"XXX tower, we can't get anything on the ATIS. IS there a problem?"
"Yes, the ATIS is u/s. It's on the NOTAMs"
"Oh"
Of 9 aircraft, we had a 33% failure rate this morning due plums.
Dream Land
Reading the NOTAMed items on runway closure and lighting may have provided the crew with a memory trigger to enable recall before takeoff; good TEM practice.
This would not have guaranteed protecting the crew from a subsequent error, but at least it would have provided an opportunity to detect the chance of error or improve situation awareness.
Why is that? The problem they had was unusual taxi route and runway identification.
This would not have guaranteed protecting the crew from a subsequent error, but at least it would have provided an opportunity to detect the chance of error or improve situation awareness.
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Some lights are out, oh well, this doesn't set off any alarms to me, maybe if I was arriving, but with do respect to you, I just don't understand how it would have been a great deal of help, sorry. 
