Money In Being A Pilot These Days
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Money In Being A Pilot These Days
As the title suggests, I am just wondering how much money is in being a pilot at the moment. Do all pilots drive Mercs or Nissans is a nice way to put it 
Thinking about becoming a pilot because I love flying but is there more money to be made doing somthing like aeronautical engineering or whatever 
Cheers,
Hafez
Thinking about becoming a pilot because I love flying but is there more money to be made doing somthing like aeronautical engineering or whatever Cheers,
Hafez
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Interesting question ?
I have a son who is currently embarking on a career as a commercial pilot. He sees his dad ( who drives a Mercedes as it happens) living a good lifestyle, earning a six figure salary with all the trappings that idealise the job as it previously existed and perhaps still does for the senior Captain. However that is not the reality for the new hire pilot today. Pilots who will pay for their own type ratings, who will accept lower salaries, no final salary pensions. Relatively poor terms and conditions. Is it the same job.? It doesn't even resemble it. If you are coming into aviation to make good money you are a fool. Only the training schools are making the money these days from those gullible or idealistic enough to part with it.
I have a son who is currently embarking on a career as a commercial pilot. He sees his dad ( who drives a Mercedes as it happens) living a good lifestyle, earning a six figure salary with all the trappings that idealise the job as it previously existed and perhaps still does for the senior Captain. However that is not the reality for the new hire pilot today. Pilots who will pay for their own type ratings, who will accept lower salaries, no final salary pensions. Relatively poor terms and conditions. Is it the same job.? It doesn't even resemble it. If you are coming into aviation to make good money you are a fool. Only the training schools are making the money these days from those gullible or idealistic enough to part with it.
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We are all mice
Hafez, Bealzebub, Hi!
I drive a basic bottom-of-range diesel Landcruiser, my wife drives a Mitsubishi or "Bits are missing" in strine.
What do I mean when I say, "The mice have been at the cheese again!"
Airlines can pick whom they want and they will pick young aspirants, in the absolute peak of condition in every regard because they can and because these very same aspirants will pay for it. Philanthropists airlines are not.
I love that song "Gold! Always believe in yourself..." but it is a song and a trap for the unwary. They say that the second mouse gets the cheese. Wrong, mice have evolved because times and conditions have changed.
In all but a very few cases if you are not in the RHS by your early twenties the first mouse has already got the cheese. And all that is left is poisoned bait.
Sorry. That's my opinion
Hafez, listen to others, then your head and lastly your heart
May you be happy whatever you do
enicalyth
I drive a basic bottom-of-range diesel Landcruiser, my wife drives a Mitsubishi or "Bits are missing" in strine.
What do I mean when I say, "The mice have been at the cheese again!"
Airlines can pick whom they want and they will pick young aspirants, in the absolute peak of condition in every regard because they can and because these very same aspirants will pay for it. Philanthropists airlines are not.
I love that song "Gold! Always believe in yourself..." but it is a song and a trap for the unwary. They say that the second mouse gets the cheese. Wrong, mice have evolved because times and conditions have changed.
In all but a very few cases if you are not in the RHS by your early twenties the first mouse has already got the cheese. And all that is left is poisoned bait.
Sorry. That's my opinion
Hafez, listen to others, then your head and lastly your heart
May you be happy whatever you do
enicalyth
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What a load of balls.
If you wanna work for Ryanair there's no reason why you wouldn't be on bottom rung cap in 4 years (or less) on £80K. Yeah, you'll put up with ****, but if you want more money than an aero eng, then it's very much a possibility. I know 3 aero engineers who've been doing it for 2-4 years and none of them earn over 30K. All of them live in London too.
What people seem to expect around here is 50K+ for little work and effort. Well, that does exist, yes, in the private sector office job after ~10-15yrs.
So yes it is expensive to start out, but life-time earnings can still be very good. And no I don't work for a training school either!
Later
If you wanna work for Ryanair there's no reason why you wouldn't be on bottom rung cap in 4 years (or less) on £80K. Yeah, you'll put up with ****, but if you want more money than an aero eng, then it's very much a possibility. I know 3 aero engineers who've been doing it for 2-4 years and none of them earn over 30K. All of them live in London too.
What people seem to expect around here is 50K+ for little work and effort. Well, that does exist, yes, in the private sector office job after ~10-15yrs.
So yes it is expensive to start out, but life-time earnings can still be very good. And no I don't work for a training school either!
Later
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I drive a very elderly Volvo with 184000 miles on the clock which I can't afford to replace. After 27 years in aviation.
Heaven help anyone starting out now with £100k+ of debt from getting a licence and type rating......
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'What to do?', without wanting to answer for Luddite, you're taking a very short sighted view of aviation.
For a start, not all pilots are employed in the airline sector.
Also, things look rosy at present. But in this cyclical industry, losing one's job is very common. Again and again. That sure eats into any savings you may have.
The industry can put a lot of pressure on a marriage - divorce isn't cheap.
So ending up with an old Volvo and no financial buffer is very very easy.
That's how you 'manage that then'.
For a start, not all pilots are employed in the airline sector.
Also, things look rosy at present. But in this cyclical industry, losing one's job is very common. Again and again. That sure eats into any savings you may have.
The industry can put a lot of pressure on a marriage - divorce isn't cheap.
So ending up with an old Volvo and no financial buffer is very very easy.
That's how you 'manage that then'.
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Just putting aside the cost of training for a moment, I wonder how many of the guys above who drive clapped out cars have mismanaged thier money. I am a year 4 first officer and I drive a Ford Focus. The reason I do is because I chose to. One of my colleagues on the same pay scale drives a brand new Nissan 350Z sports car.
Now, I can afford to pay the mortgage on a nice 2 bed flat in a poshish part of SW London, I could afford a sports car if I wanted one, and I have a good quality of life. I am the highest earner of my friends from University and I love my job.
Things are a little different when you get married and have kids - I know that being single means you have more cash.
I think a lot of people on the industry have lost sight of what actually happens in the world. I only have to talk to 70% of Captains at work who think that the difficulty of buying a house or flat is no different from when they bought one (it is much more difficult for non pilots!). A Captian even told me I should go any buy a 3 bed semi like he did. I also told another Captain what I earned and he was shocked at how low it was.
The point here is not that I earn a small amount, it is that the people further up the ladder think it is small. Since I earn the highest of all my friends from Uni, I think you can say that flying is better paid than their (very good) jobs.
They are Engineers mostly by the way.
I was offered a job as a Flight Test engineer for 19.5K, and a job with my airline for almost double that. What would you choose?
Adding Training costs now, that is pretty bad. However, my colleague from a previous airline who paid for his training (As opposed to me who didn't), has a Mortgage, more pay than me (he joined as a Direct Entry Pilot, rather than a Cadet entry pilot on lower salarly). He drives a nice car and loves his job too.
You have to play your cards right, but it is no where near as bad as some of the moaning minnies above will tell you.
Now, I can afford to pay the mortgage on a nice 2 bed flat in a poshish part of SW London, I could afford a sports car if I wanted one, and I have a good quality of life. I am the highest earner of my friends from University and I love my job.
Things are a little different when you get married and have kids - I know that being single means you have more cash.
I think a lot of people on the industry have lost sight of what actually happens in the world. I only have to talk to 70% of Captains at work who think that the difficulty of buying a house or flat is no different from when they bought one (it is much more difficult for non pilots!). A Captian even told me I should go any buy a 3 bed semi like he did. I also told another Captain what I earned and he was shocked at how low it was.
The point here is not that I earn a small amount, it is that the people further up the ladder think it is small. Since I earn the highest of all my friends from Uni, I think you can say that flying is better paid than their (very good) jobs.
They are Engineers mostly by the way.
I was offered a job as a Flight Test engineer for 19.5K, and a job with my airline for almost double that. What would you choose?
Adding Training costs now, that is pretty bad. However, my colleague from a previous airline who paid for his training (As opposed to me who didn't), has a Mortgage, more pay than me (he joined as a Direct Entry Pilot, rather than a Cadet entry pilot on lower salarly). He drives a nice car and loves his job too.
You have to play your cards right, but it is no where near as bad as some of the moaning minnies above will tell you.
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You have to play your cards right, but it is no where near as bad as some of the moaning minnies above will tell you.
When the **** hits the fan, no amount of prudent financial planning is going to be enough.
The optimism of youth - I'm not knocking it - but give those of us with a few more years under our belts and a bit more flesh hanging over them a bit of credit eh?
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and so is balls!
Don't you also think that "balls" is a bit strong referring to the opinions of a kind and thoughtful man?
I refer to the man who interviewed me when I had on the table a $108k engineering job with superannuation. He told me then it's not the car you drive, nor the wristwatch you wear nor how long is it till your first command. He used the words "Vocation not Vacation" and left me only his card.
My fiancee and I talked it over, rang him and the upshot was we spent a family weekend at their place
Hope I've helped.
James
I refer to the man who interviewed me when I had on the table a $108k engineering job with superannuation. He told me then it's not the car you drive, nor the wristwatch you wear nor how long is it till your first command. He used the words "Vocation not Vacation" and left me only his card.
My fiancee and I talked it over, rang him and the upshot was we spent a family weekend at their place
Hope I've helped.
James
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Maximum
What was the question? It was about commercial jobs and the associated remuneration, which (once in) is good (I used to be a lawyer by the way). It’s not about the cost of divorce, which (correct me if I’m wrong) it seems you’ve experienced.
Since the question is clearly related to commercial flying, my reply to “27 years and a 180K mile Volvo” is quite appropriate, is it not? To the newbie such a comment needs explanation, since somebody who’s been employed for 27 years could quite possibly be on £100,000+ .
So, my answer would be yes it does pay well, as much as it did, well, at the top yes, but there’s a much greater outlay to begin with. As for a £100,000 training cost, I know that’s possible, but ****, you’d have to be retarded to spend £70,000 at Oxford and then pay for you type at the moment.
James - it's not clear if you're an engineer or a pilot from your post? If you're an engineer on a 108K, perhaps you could put it into perspective for Hafez, who's wondering which to choose.
Anyway
later
p.s. When asked why the 747 has a lump at the front, some F/O’s have been heard to suggest it’s for the captain’s wallet!
What was the question? It was about commercial jobs and the associated remuneration, which (once in) is good (I used to be a lawyer by the way). It’s not about the cost of divorce, which (correct me if I’m wrong) it seems you’ve experienced.
Since the question is clearly related to commercial flying, my reply to “27 years and a 180K mile Volvo” is quite appropriate, is it not? To the newbie such a comment needs explanation, since somebody who’s been employed for 27 years could quite possibly be on £100,000+ .
So, my answer would be yes it does pay well, as much as it did, well, at the top yes, but there’s a much greater outlay to begin with. As for a £100,000 training cost, I know that’s possible, but ****, you’d have to be retarded to spend £70,000 at Oxford and then pay for you type at the moment.
James - it's not clear if you're an engineer or a pilot from your post? If you're an engineer on a 108K, perhaps you could put it into perspective for Hafez, who's wondering which to choose.
Anyway
later
p.s. When asked why the 747 has a lump at the front, some F/O’s have been heard to suggest it’s for the captain’s wallet!
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If you're looking for mega bucks then this isn't the industry for you.
In the airlines you can earn a comfortable salary in the top 3% of UK earners. In my opinion thats not bad. Like all of the people in that 3% the salary isn't handed to you on a plate and you have to work damned hard for it.
It's an enjoyable job with downsides but pays, in my orange airline, a comfortable salary. If you want the £200k salary then look for a hot shot lawyers job but then they'll also be working their backsides off. If you want to do Su Doku, catch up on current affairs (read the paper when working - hey I'm boring, what can I say?) and do something interesting then go into flying. Just remember the downsides.
However long hours and the threat of redundancy aren't confined to aviation. Plenty of my friends earn less than half my salary (SFO), have been made redundant and been off work from stress etc. My other half works in finance and works much harder than I do for the same salary. One of the rising stars in her company shot to the top with £150k (estimate salary) and the big big flashy merc thrown in only to fall from grace six months later onto the street.
No job is safe and secure at the salary levels pilots earn. I could earn more by working for BA or Cathay Pacific but money isn't the only thing in life, I like being home every night and living in my chosen region so I won't commute and hence lose out salary wise. Overall I'm happy with my lot, it could be a lot better rostering wise but having the other half working outside aviation is definitely an eye opener.
Tend to find that the people who have been in the industry a long time have seen it change for the worse but they also haven't realised that the whole world of work has also changed.
In the airlines you can earn a comfortable salary in the top 3% of UK earners. In my opinion thats not bad. Like all of the people in that 3% the salary isn't handed to you on a plate and you have to work damned hard for it.
It's an enjoyable job with downsides but pays, in my orange airline, a comfortable salary. If you want the £200k salary then look for a hot shot lawyers job but then they'll also be working their backsides off. If you want to do Su Doku, catch up on current affairs (read the paper when working - hey I'm boring, what can I say?) and do something interesting then go into flying. Just remember the downsides.
However long hours and the threat of redundancy aren't confined to aviation. Plenty of my friends earn less than half my salary (SFO), have been made redundant and been off work from stress etc. My other half works in finance and works much harder than I do for the same salary. One of the rising stars in her company shot to the top with £150k (estimate salary) and the big big flashy merc thrown in only to fall from grace six months later onto the street.
No job is safe and secure at the salary levels pilots earn. I could earn more by working for BA or Cathay Pacific but money isn't the only thing in life, I like being home every night and living in my chosen region so I won't commute and hence lose out salary wise. Overall I'm happy with my lot, it could be a lot better rostering wise but having the other half working outside aviation is definitely an eye opener.
Tend to find that the people who have been in the industry a long time have seen it change for the worse but they also haven't realised that the whole world of work has also changed.
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Maximum - no I don't think "Moaning Minnies" is too harsh a description.
I have flown with many Captains, both great fun to fly with and not so. The ones who are no fun to fly with do nothing but moan. The reason they moan is not the job, it is the person that they are, otherwise everyone would be unhappy. They don't seem to realise that they turn a good day out for me into living hell - which is something worth complaining about. Happily there aren't many about.
If they are divorced, that is not the fault of the job. If they have spent all thier money on school fees - that is their choice. If they can't manage their money properly, that is not the fault of the job either.
I am convinced that these people would be the moaners in an office too.
The question is about how good the job is remunerated. Its pretty good when compared to other things. Tell me where you could get paid as much and have the same time off, without your nose to the grind for 20 years?
Too many people think that they are owed riches beyond belief. I don't agree that we should go the way of Ryanair or give our lives wholly to a company. I do believe there are far too many people who have been so lucky for so long that they have lost the view of the real world the claim to moan about.
I have flown with many Captains, both great fun to fly with and not so. The ones who are no fun to fly with do nothing but moan. The reason they moan is not the job, it is the person that they are, otherwise everyone would be unhappy. They don't seem to realise that they turn a good day out for me into living hell - which is something worth complaining about. Happily there aren't many about.
If they are divorced, that is not the fault of the job. If they have spent all thier money on school fees - that is their choice. If they can't manage their money properly, that is not the fault of the job either.
I am convinced that these people would be the moaners in an office too.
The question is about how good the job is remunerated. Its pretty good when compared to other things. Tell me where you could get paid as much and have the same time off, without your nose to the grind for 20 years?
Too many people think that they are owed riches beyond belief. I don't agree that we should go the way of Ryanair or give our lives wholly to a company. I do believe there are far too many people who have been so lucky for so long that they have lost the view of the real world the claim to moan about.
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The one thing I miss about my youth is the unerring optimism. When reality bites it does take a bit of a pounding.
Come back in twenty years and tell us all about your experiences, divorce, health problems, bankruptcy........I'll bet my not inconsiderable mortagage that you will not be the same person.
Is their money in aviation, yes, is it worth your life, I very much doubt it.
I would never recommend aviation as a way of making money. The richest perosn I know works for himself and sells insurance.
Harry
Come back in twenty years and tell us all about your experiences, divorce, health problems, bankruptcy........I'll bet my not inconsiderable mortagage that you will not be the same person.
Is their money in aviation, yes, is it worth your life, I very much doubt it.
I would never recommend aviation as a way of making money. The richest perosn I know works for himself and sells insurance.
Harry
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In the late 80's I received my masters degree in engineering (software engineering for that matter). But I still wanted to fly.
In 1990 I applied for a BA training programme. Was whittled down to the final 6 at an overnight selection process at LHR.
One of the interview questions from a BA Captain:
"Do you think you will be earning more in IT in 5 years, or more in BA?" I answered that IT would pay more - the reaction from the captain was as much to say that I'd given the wrong answer. I thought that it was the right answer both technically and that I was not motivated by the money.
For other reasons I didn't get on to the trainee programme (hence my Class II medical today).
I've stuck in IT and now earn a rather large wedge (just shy of 6 figures base in UK Stirling), with the mortgage nearly paid off.
So last year I decided to learn to fly for the hell of it - a dream I've always wanted to attain. I'm close to getting my PPL and then I'll probably spend time 'bimbling' about and getting additional ratings for the fun of it.
What does surprise me is the lack of funds of the FIs and others involved in the business. Jobs also seem to be few and far between (at least the good ones to base a family and mortgage on).
So, from my view: money in flying or engineering? Engineering wins hands down for me personally and I see a very bright future for the field I'm in. My job has also meant that I've still done a lot of flying albeit as a passenger and seen a lot of the world at the expense of my employer - the travel aspect of the flying career was almost as important as the desire to fly.
But do I regret missing that trainee programme? You bet!!! It is the one big regret of my life.
So it goes back to vocation or a 'job'. If you want to fly then go for it - you only live once and you might well regret it later.
If you are young and have an engineering qualification to fall back on then you at least have a safety net. Go for it!
But don't do it just for the money. As already stated here - pilots can be in the top 3% of earners. That is still pretty good reward however you look at it.
In 1990 I applied for a BA training programme. Was whittled down to the final 6 at an overnight selection process at LHR.
One of the interview questions from a BA Captain:
"Do you think you will be earning more in IT in 5 years, or more in BA?" I answered that IT would pay more - the reaction from the captain was as much to say that I'd given the wrong answer. I thought that it was the right answer both technically and that I was not motivated by the money.
For other reasons I didn't get on to the trainee programme (hence my Class II medical today).
I've stuck in IT and now earn a rather large wedge (just shy of 6 figures base in UK Stirling), with the mortgage nearly paid off.
So last year I decided to learn to fly for the hell of it - a dream I've always wanted to attain. I'm close to getting my PPL and then I'll probably spend time 'bimbling' about and getting additional ratings for the fun of it.
What does surprise me is the lack of funds of the FIs and others involved in the business. Jobs also seem to be few and far between (at least the good ones to base a family and mortgage on).
So, from my view: money in flying or engineering? Engineering wins hands down for me personally and I see a very bright future for the field I'm in. My job has also meant that I've still done a lot of flying albeit as a passenger and seen a lot of the world at the expense of my employer - the travel aspect of the flying career was almost as important as the desire to fly.
But do I regret missing that trainee programme? You bet!!! It is the one big regret of my life.
So it goes back to vocation or a 'job'. If you want to fly then go for it - you only live once and you might well regret it later.
If you are young and have an engineering qualification to fall back on then you at least have a safety net. Go for it!
But don't do it just for the money. As already stated here - pilots can be in the top 3% of earners. That is still pretty good reward however you look at it.
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At 17 had the choice of A levels or aviation, was advised that as a pilot you would never be really rich but would always be comfortable !!! Took the aviation route and no regrets did airlines for many years then quit for corporate life. Same job now for 15years, done the divorce and kids still at private school, drive a BMW.
If you love flying go for it !!
ATP
If you love flying go for it !!
ATP
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Hi,
I think the real answer is whether or not you really want to fly. I went into flying because I loved it before I even got into an aircraft, I knew in advance it was exactly what I wanted. When a friend asked how I would feel having to wake up at 3 am to go flying, I said that the sunrise would be beautiful as it came over the clouds.
If you are concerned about money, that is perfectly reasonable and prudent and should be part of a solid analysis. But the driving force and the motivation is not, or should not really be, the money or financial reward, it should be the excitement and pride you feel when you fly precisely, confidently and in an organisation with like-minded guys and girls.
Luck has a lot to do with finding the right job, and it is a huge risk. Many other professions may not give you such a good financial reward, although a few far exceed it. I think it all depends how much you really want it and how much you really love it. For me personally there is nothing else to it other than feelings, sheer determination and lots of sweat, blood and tears. I've had to go through what my friends and Uni graduate colleagues consider "hell" to get to where I am now, five years after graduating (from engineering). Perhaps I've missed out on other things in my personal life and I do have some regrets, but I am a much more confident person after having gone through that process to get what I really wanted.
Be careful, but if you really want it, don't let overcaution dampen a fire burning inside you. Listen well to everyone, then shut everyone out, close your eyes, meditate... and only then make up your mind.
Best wishes,
Gusty
I think the real answer is whether or not you really want to fly. I went into flying because I loved it before I even got into an aircraft, I knew in advance it was exactly what I wanted. When a friend asked how I would feel having to wake up at 3 am to go flying, I said that the sunrise would be beautiful as it came over the clouds.
If you are concerned about money, that is perfectly reasonable and prudent and should be part of a solid analysis. But the driving force and the motivation is not, or should not really be, the money or financial reward, it should be the excitement and pride you feel when you fly precisely, confidently and in an organisation with like-minded guys and girls.
Luck has a lot to do with finding the right job, and it is a huge risk. Many other professions may not give you such a good financial reward, although a few far exceed it. I think it all depends how much you really want it and how much you really love it. For me personally there is nothing else to it other than feelings, sheer determination and lots of sweat, blood and tears. I've had to go through what my friends and Uni graduate colleagues consider "hell" to get to where I am now, five years after graduating (from engineering). Perhaps I've missed out on other things in my personal life and I do have some regrets, but I am a much more confident person after having gone through that process to get what I really wanted.
Be careful, but if you really want it, don't let overcaution dampen a fire burning inside you. Listen well to everyone, then shut everyone out, close your eyes, meditate... and only then make up your mind.
Best wishes,
Gusty
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I am 15 now so i suppose it will be another 10 years before i even apply for an airline so do you think that many things will have changed by then like salary and that? and thanks for the comments so far, really helping 
Hafez
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What was the question? It was about commercial jobs and the associated remuneration, which (once in) is good (I used to be a lawyer by the way). It’s not about the cost of divorce, which (correct me if I’m wrong) it seems you’ve experienced.
If they are divorced, that is not the fault of the job. If they have spent all thier money on school fees - that is their choice. If they can't manage their money properly, that is not the fault of the job either.