Unfreezing PI/S hours (merged)
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Unfreezing ATPL, P1 signatures ??
hi
just a quick question regarding unfreezing my ATPL (JAA). i have looked through sections G and A of LASORS and havent been able to find the answer, so i hope someone can offer a definitive one as i've asked different skippers and they seem to have differing thoughts on the issue ......
regarding the time on my JAR25 a/c, for those sectors where i have been the handling pilot i have been recording the time as P1(U/S) and after reading my logbook it mentions that those entries need to be countersigned by the capt but nobody seems to know anything about this. is this the case, or has that requirement changed since the UK became part of the JAA licencing states ? last thing i want to happen is for the CAA to turn around and say "sorry you havent had those entries countersigned so its gonna take you another XYZ hrs to get your licence unfrozen"
thanks in advance
B
just a quick question regarding unfreezing my ATPL (JAA). i have looked through sections G and A of LASORS and havent been able to find the answer, so i hope someone can offer a definitive one as i've asked different skippers and they seem to have differing thoughts on the issue ......
regarding the time on my JAR25 a/c, for those sectors where i have been the handling pilot i have been recording the time as P1(U/S) and after reading my logbook it mentions that those entries need to be countersigned by the capt but nobody seems to know anything about this. is this the case, or has that requirement changed since the UK became part of the JAA licencing states ? last thing i want to happen is for the CAA to turn around and say "sorry you havent had those entries countersigned so its gonna take you another XYZ hrs to get your licence unfrozen"
thanks in advance
B
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Got my ATPL a few month ago. Some entries were signed by the Captain, most were not. I got the Chief Pilot to sign that the entries were correct and put his examiners number next to his signature. All went OK.
In Lasors where it says you need 250 hours P1 of which 150 can be PICUS, you may find you do not have 100 hours P1. (depends on your flying background). If you have done an integrated course, all the SPIC that you did (ie different to PICUS) counts as P1. If you have a CPL you have enough P1, so don't worry about that.
Send a photocopy of your licence signing page and medical along with your logbook, the form and the money (cheque or card details) and 10 days later a shiny new ATPL will arrive.
If you have any things you are not sure about, you can always call Flight Crew Licensing who are usually very helpful when you have got through the telephone menu.
In Lasors where it says you need 250 hours P1 of which 150 can be PICUS, you may find you do not have 100 hours P1. (depends on your flying background). If you have done an integrated course, all the SPIC that you did (ie different to PICUS) counts as P1. If you have a CPL you have enough P1, so don't worry about that.
Send a photocopy of your licence signing page and medical along with your logbook, the form and the money (cheque or card details) and 10 days later a shiny new ATPL will arrive.
If you have any things you are not sure about, you can always call Flight Crew Licensing who are usually very helpful when you have got through the telephone menu.
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can you guys perhaps clarify something for me...
if you meet all the hours requiremenmts for atpl issue, but are just short the multi pilot type rating, and before you ask how can you be short the mptr if you have the 500 hours multi crew time, it also says you can use time flown on a certified single pilot aircraft, if under national law and regulations it required two pilots.
so i have over 500 hours multi pilot time, but not an actual mutli pilot type rating on my jaa licence, so my question is:
when i start with an employer, and they rate me on a multi pilot type, will this automatically entitile me to the atpl.
i see in lasors, it says that your initial mutli pilot type rating can serve as your atpl skills test too, now is there anything extra they do on the type rating training to make it acceptable to serve as the atpl skills test...or how does it work?
if you go to flight safety in the usa or middle east and do a type rating there, will that also be acceptable to the uk caa, are the flight safety instructors all jaa approved and is flight seafety considered a trto?
many thanks for you help...
if you meet all the hours requiremenmts for atpl issue, but are just short the multi pilot type rating, and before you ask how can you be short the mptr if you have the 500 hours multi crew time, it also says you can use time flown on a certified single pilot aircraft, if under national law and regulations it required two pilots.
so i have over 500 hours multi pilot time, but not an actual mutli pilot type rating on my jaa licence, so my question is:
when i start with an employer, and they rate me on a multi pilot type, will this automatically entitile me to the atpl.
i see in lasors, it says that your initial mutli pilot type rating can serve as your atpl skills test too, now is there anything extra they do on the type rating training to make it acceptable to serve as the atpl skills test...or how does it work?
if you go to flight safety in the usa or middle east and do a type rating there, will that also be acceptable to the uk caa, are the flight safety instructors all jaa approved and is flight seafety considered a trto?
many thanks for you help...
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Several colleagues of mine who have not managed to get every line signed in their logbook have managed to get a letter written by our (previous) Chief Pilot/Director Flight Ops. etc. to say that X hours of flying has been performed. The Campaign have accepted this in the past.
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May I just say be v careful. Maybe I was just unlucky, and had to deal with someone in the CAA on a bad day.
But after having some of my P1 u/s time signed and all the other requirements fulfiled I sent off my ATPL application. Got a very cheeky phone call the next day from a lady in the CAA saying it was totally unacceptable that I did'nt haveevery single flight signed. When I asked what someone who had a Digital logbbok would do, the response was it was his responsibility to print it out, find the capt's from X years ago and ask them to sign it.
In practice told her politly (but biting my tougne) that this would nothappen. So she then agreed if i got a letter from my arline saying how much P1 and p2 time i have that would suffice. After explaining i could get her my total time from the airline, i wuld not be able to provide a break down of p1 and p2 because my airline only kept tab's on total time on type i.e block hours (as im sure many do). She agreed. Got the said piece of paper and faxed it across. Que second phone call. saying it did'nt break dwn the hours to p1 and p2. After hitting my head off a brick wall and explaining to the same person what i had explained a day before, she agreed once again. More to come.Next day phone call no 3. Get me a copy of your TRE/I approval to conduct ATPL kill's check. He was a JAR examiner!!!!! and has been doing Uk licences for at east 10 years. And he was on holiday for a week.
As I said in 7 years of dealing with the CAA I've never had a bad word to say, but this did require a few pints of the black suff!!
If u can, save your self a lot of hassle and make an effort to get as many signed as possible.
Happy Flying
But after having some of my P1 u/s time signed and all the other requirements fulfiled I sent off my ATPL application. Got a very cheeky phone call the next day from a lady in the CAA saying it was totally unacceptable that I did'nt haveevery single flight signed. When I asked what someone who had a Digital logbbok would do, the response was it was his responsibility to print it out, find the capt's from X years ago and ask them to sign it.
In practice told her politly (but biting my tougne) that this would nothappen. So she then agreed if i got a letter from my arline saying how much P1 and p2 time i have that would suffice. After explaining i could get her my total time from the airline, i wuld not be able to provide a break down of p1 and p2 because my airline only kept tab's on total time on type i.e block hours (as im sure many do). She agreed. Got the said piece of paper and faxed it across. Que second phone call. saying it did'nt break dwn the hours to p1 and p2. After hitting my head off a brick wall and explaining to the same person what i had explained a day before, she agreed once again. More to come.Next day phone call no 3. Get me a copy of your TRE/I approval to conduct ATPL kill's check. He was a JAR examiner!!!!! and has been doing Uk licences for at east 10 years. And he was on holiday for a week.
As I said in 7 years of dealing with the CAA I've never had a bad word to say, but this did require a few pints of the black suff!!
If u can, save your self a lot of hassle and make an effort to get as many signed as possible.
Happy Flying
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thanks for the replies guys, seabiscuit it sounds like you had a rather annoying experience, one i would like to try and prevent, so will be endeavouring to get as many signatures as possible. as much of a hassle as that might be, in the long run i'm sure it'll worth it ! thanks for sharing your experience
B
B
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I'd say getting all the signatures is more difficult than getting your airline to write a quick letter. That's what I got a few years back and the company just asked me what/ how many hours did they need to put in the letter!!!!
PP
PP
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I didn't have any PICUS signatures.
Intailly i tried to get them. i was told that FO's couldn't log PICUS by one captain and to log it by another. Read PPrune and it seemed to follow that it was a split if you could log PICUS or not flying as PF in a multi crew aircraft.
Who is right gawd knows but some are very anti it and some are ok about it.
I logged PF as PICUS and PNF as co-pilot and didn't get signatures.
The problem i had with the form was that I was a JAR only log book holder and as such had never recorded Instrument time only IFR. I claimed the min required on the form.
I do have 900+ hours instructing under my belt so the min PIC time was never really an issue.
Got a letter off the CP confirming multi crew log book hours and number of OPC/LPC's with the company and that was it.
Sent off for my ATPL and 3 weeks later it arrived.
MJ
Intailly i tried to get them. i was told that FO's couldn't log PICUS by one captain and to log it by another. Read PPrune and it seemed to follow that it was a split if you could log PICUS or not flying as PF in a multi crew aircraft.
Who is right gawd knows but some are very anti it and some are ok about it.
I logged PF as PICUS and PNF as co-pilot and didn't get signatures.
The problem i had with the form was that I was a JAR only log book holder and as such had never recorded Instrument time only IFR. I claimed the min required on the form.
I do have 900+ hours instructing under my belt so the min PIC time was never really an issue.
Got a letter off the CP confirming multi crew log book hours and number of OPC/LPC's with the company and that was it.
Sent off for my ATPL and 3 weeks later it arrived.
MJ
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Picus hours
Hello when you logging hours flown as pilot handling, do you record it as picus hours? and is it a requirement to have the captain sign you log book as proof? for instance when your applying to unfreeze your licence.
Any reply would be very much appriciated as its causing me some confusion!
And also, tipex on log books?? bad?
Thanks
Any reply would be very much appriciated as its causing me some confusion!
And also, tipex on log books?? bad?
Thanks
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For unfreezing your licence, the CAA don't care whether you are Handling or non-handling pilot. You will have enough PICUS and PIC hours in your book from your initiall approved course for that - all they need is the reqd. total.
Whether you log it as PICUS, P2, shouldn't matter as long as it's not counted towards P1 totals (Aircraft Captain)
If your logbook is countersigned by your captains it can save a lot of grief at the CAA when you turn up with forms/cheque/licence/logbook for unfreezing, so if you can, do. If not possible, get a signed (headed?) letter forom your Chief Pilot/Base Captain certifying that the hours totals in your logbook are correct.
Tipp-Ex? Makes your flight bag heavier if you use too much but how many mistakes can one make in 1500 hours?
Not bad, just messy!
Whether you log it as PICUS, P2, shouldn't matter as long as it's not counted towards P1 totals (Aircraft Captain)
If your logbook is countersigned by your captains it can save a lot of grief at the CAA when you turn up with forms/cheque/licence/logbook for unfreezing, so if you can, do. If not possible, get a signed (headed?) letter forom your Chief Pilot/Base Captain certifying that the hours totals in your logbook are correct.
Tipp-Ex? Makes your flight bag heavier if you use too much but how many mistakes can one make in 1500 hours?
Not bad, just messy!
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The joys of JAR
Unfortunatly its going to be very hard to get an answer.
There are alot of views both side of the fence on this one.
Under JAR there is no such thing as P1 and P2
Only PIC, PICUS and CO-PILOT and they don't mean the same thing as the old system.
PICUS is defined in LASORS and is a bit woolly.
see http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20A.pdf
annex B
Its says it must be acceptable to the CAA but I have never heard anyone who has been told what is acceptable or as such holds an approval.
You will get one side saying you can log PICUS as PIC then in remarks put down as PICUS with the commanders sig and others who say it should be log as co-pilot etc.
Who's right i don't know.
I can't see how a OAT intergrated graduate can ever get their ATPL unless they count PICUS towards PIC time without hour building PIC at some point. And I can see the argument that your never PIC as an FO on a multi-crew aircraft.
People I know who have emailed the CAA on this subject have never got a reply which means anything. Ie refered to LASORS or when pushed a reply which says they can only comment on a individual license application to the person involved and it will only hold for that particular application.
Unfortunately only subjects like Instructors logging 3 solo send offs for a x-country qual seem to get any responce from the CAA on PPrune followed by an update of lasors. But I don't think we shall be so lucky with this one.
MJ
Unfortunatly its going to be very hard to get an answer.
There are alot of views both side of the fence on this one.
Under JAR there is no such thing as P1 and P2
Only PIC, PICUS and CO-PILOT and they don't mean the same thing as the old system.
PICUS is defined in LASORS and is a bit woolly.
see http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20A.pdf
annex B
Its says it must be acceptable to the CAA but I have never heard anyone who has been told what is acceptable or as such holds an approval.
You will get one side saying you can log PICUS as PIC then in remarks put down as PICUS with the commanders sig and others who say it should be log as co-pilot etc.
Who's right i don't know.
I can't see how a OAT intergrated graduate can ever get their ATPL unless they count PICUS towards PIC time without hour building PIC at some point. And I can see the argument that your never PIC as an FO on a multi-crew aircraft.
People I know who have emailed the CAA on this subject have never got a reply which means anything. Ie refered to LASORS or when pushed a reply which says they can only comment on a individual license application to the person involved and it will only hold for that particular application.
Unfortunately only subjects like Instructors logging 3 solo send offs for a x-country qual seem to get any responce from the CAA on PPrune followed by an update of lasors. But I don't think we shall be so lucky with this one.
MJ
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I think it depends on which person deals with your ATPL application at the CAA. I have just got my ATPL and a mate of mine got his a few weeks before me.
My mate had to produce a letter from his company to verify that his P1/S hours were genuine.
I on the other had was not asked for a letter from my company to verify my P1/S experience. Both of us did not have our hours stamped or countersigned. We both had very similar hours and both had more than enough P1 hours from instructing so both cases were very similar.
I was at the CAA getting a type ratng issued when I handed my ATPL application in and knowing of what happened to my mate, I asked the chap twice if all the paperwork was there (App form, Logbook, MCC Cert). He said that no other documents were required and he looked through my logbook before he took it and saw that my hours were not countersigned.
So in theory you might not need your hours countersigned but it did not make any difference for me!
My mate had to produce a letter from his company to verify that his P1/S hours were genuine.
I on the other had was not asked for a letter from my company to verify my P1/S experience. Both of us did not have our hours stamped or countersigned. We both had very similar hours and both had more than enough P1 hours from instructing so both cases were very similar.
I was at the CAA getting a type ratng issued when I handed my ATPL application in and knowing of what happened to my mate, I asked the chap twice if all the paperwork was there (App form, Logbook, MCC Cert). He said that no other documents were required and he looked through my logbook before he took it and saw that my hours were not countersigned.
So in theory you might not need your hours countersigned but it did not make any difference for me!
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Its that note 5 which is up for debate.
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the auth..... etc
Its not defined what this is unfortunatly.
The bit that some say you can't be classed as PICUS flying as a FO.
"when all the functions and dutys are carried out such that......"
Which the argument goes that to be doing that there must be complete role reversal including tech log etc etc. Which most SOP's preclude you from doing. And i have heard of some captains refusing to sign because of this reason.
I suspect for the ex-instructors they really can't be bothered as the PIC hours are more than required without counting any PICUS hours.
Letter from the company stating that your log book entrys are correct seems to be the easy option. And also keeps you clear of the different opinions on the subject. I haven't heard of anyone being knocked back with a letter (or with out to be honest).
MJ
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the auth..... etc
Its not defined what this is unfortunatly.
The bit that some say you can't be classed as PICUS flying as a FO.
"when all the functions and dutys are carried out such that......"
Which the argument goes that to be doing that there must be complete role reversal including tech log etc etc. Which most SOP's preclude you from doing. And i have heard of some captains refusing to sign because of this reason.
I suspect for the ex-instructors they really can't be bothered as the PIC hours are more than required without counting any PICUS hours.
Letter from the company stating that your log book entrys are correct seems to be the easy option. And also keeps you clear of the different opinions on the subject. I haven't heard of anyone being knocked back with a letter (or with out to be honest).
MJ
Some authorities have very original approach to PiCUS. In the old days, to get ATPL in my country, you needed to get 250 hr PiCUS time on transport category airplane, regardless of PiC time obtained earlier and PiCUS was exactly that - F/O sitting in LH seat doing taxiing, fuel planning, writing TLB while capt. instr. in RHS would play copilot. But JAA membership is near (hopefully early next year) and some things have changed. Now you can do PiCUS time from RHS, but alas, you need to have TRI/TRE in LHS to log it.
So question for you lucky ones from the real Europe is: what do you log as PiCUS - your PF sectors or anything your capt. is happy to sign?
So question for you lucky ones from the real Europe is: what do you log as PiCUS - your PF sectors or anything your capt. is happy to sign?
