From the sounds of it we are all quite similar in the sense that we are all seeing the cold, hard reality of training to be a commercial pilot.

I think we would all agree that two things are for sure, i we make them happen, though that make it all worth while:

1) Doing what we love everyday - flying & being challenged
2) Being paid for this and being rewarded for the hardwork we put in to get there.

It is a hard road but one which bears excellent fruits, both personally and professionally, at the end.

I think even though most of us have a dream and the reality is sometimes very cold and different we should never forget that dream as it will keep us going through the hard times.

If doing modular training then I would highly recommend doing all elements that do not have a time restriction. Doing a section such as the ATPL theory before your hour building (which can take a fair few months - in my case, 12 months and still counting)...then its a waste of valuable time and may lead to undue pressure in order to complete the remaining parts.

If your on a badger arse budget like some of us then structuring your course in this way will benefit. If you have a wad of cash that will allow you to train full time modular then its a diffrent scenario.

How do you eat yours?

i'm not really sure where your coming from, CPL/IR training is broken up into different exams and licenses and ratings so i don't see how you can miss vital knowledge or experience because if you do you won't pass that particular part of the course, and the course has hour/time requirements anyway (45 hour PPL, 700 hours ATPL study etc), what is the point of slowing down your training and delaying getting to where you want to be?

Hi Mcgoo,

Sorry - i think i was a little unclear there.

Just-Local had raised the valid point that many seem to want to rush through the training and i may have appeared to be one of those people. I was clarifying that based on my personal circumstances i was planning according to a comfortable pace for me. Others may complete the training quicker of slower - i suppose it all depends on their factors.

I was meaning that rather than learning the material just for the exam and then quickly finding the knowledge becoming sketchy i would rather pace myself so that i learned the material for the long term and had a solid and firm knowledge base for the future.

I agree with your question about slowing training down - I don't think it should be slowed down if a student, has a good knowledge base to pass the exams and maintain that knowledge base after the exams a done with and can do the practical work to the required standard etc

I don't know though i will soon embark on the long journey and will find out for myself very soon if my theory is on track. I am sure it will require modifications at some point though.;)

I'm glad you clarified that AHMC - I don't like the developing trend of people trying to short cut the exams, especially by learning the answers to the questions (learning exam technique is acceptable, but not the answers!). I believe it is a CRM issue, and an indication that people have the wrong attitude before they even start in the job!

Our product is safe arrival, and we do not deliver that by taking short cuts.

Phil

I agree with you paco - i also think that the correct attitude is crucial to being a good aviator.

Everytime i go to the flying school and see someone kicking up a fuss about the weather and asking why they can't fly over and over again, i can't help but shake my head.

Thats what i'm beginning to see anyway.

I forgot to add that it's not worth skipping the exams - you will need the same knowledge for the interview and if you don't know it will be obvious! A lot of people criticise the US/Canadian academic standards, forgetting that the real exam is with the examiner!

Phil

Need ATPL Self Study Hints/Tips !
 

Does anyone have any hints/tips to help with the ATPL self study ?.

I've been out of the study game for around 12 years, and silly as it may sound, I've forgotten how to study !!. I'm currently doing Module one through Bristol Ground School.

I sit and read through the subjects, and then do the tests at the end, but find that I'm not remembering what I should be, and remembering what I don't really need to.

Whats the best way to ensure that I can remember what I need to ? Am I best writing my own notes as I go, or highlighting important bits in the books ? (I have been trying to keep my books as neat and tidy as poss by only making the odd few pencil marks in them).

I know not everyone learns in the same way, but any hints/tips/advice is appreciated so I can give it a try and find out what works for me.

:ok:

Constant reviewing is the key - do a little bit, review it, and review it again at the end of the day.

Good luck

Phil

I agree!
I have just completed all 14 and had been out of education for a while.
I planned my time carefully and did chunks at a time - say 1hr with a 10-15 mins off doing something completley different and then back to a different subject. I worked out a timetable and stuck to it.
Find what works for you and enjoy it!!!!
pm me if you need any more specific hints with the different subjects!!

Here's what worked for me:

Stage 1

Read through each frame and just try to understand everything.
Read through again, and try to memorise any facts or formulas. Making notes and drawing diagrams can help here.
Take the progress test, without referring to the notes, and have it marked.
Review the marked answers, including the questions you got right.
Move on to the next frame.

Stage 2

When all subjects finished (and you think you remember nothing of them) hit the online question bank.
Create a huge test of the questions on one subject and start plugging away, an hour at a time.
If a question comes up and you have to guess it or you get it wrong, write the question number down (creating a list in word like 123,124,126.. will help later).
If you get a second question wrong on any topic, re-read the notes on that topic before carrying on. Ask online about anything you can't understand.
When the test is finished (it may take several days), create a second test of all the questions you got wrong the previous time (you can cut and paste that word list from earlier). It's likely to be at least a third of the size of the first, so may take a couple of days to get through.
If a question comes up and you have to guess it or you get it wrong, write the question number down etc etc
Repeat the whole process, creating shorter and shorter tests, until you are getting few questions wrong.

Stage 3

Attend the brush up.
The tutors will go through the entire syallabus again and give you questions to do each evening. By now you will be familiar with the style of questions and the areas of interest to the examiner. You will feel confident.

Stage 4

Take and pass the exams.
Drink Beer.

Does anyone know of a groundschool which lets you stretch out sitting the ATPL exams (distance learning) as much as you like? Most of the ones I have looked at so far give you a set schedule and you have to complete the whole course within 12 months. My problem is that I only get 5 weeks holiday off work each year, so to do 3 phases with one week classroom and 1 week exams each time, equals 6 weeks leave required!! :uhoh:

wilco with the beer :) But just not whilst studying

Me to...
 

Im also on the module 1 at Bristol groundschool, some days of reading seem to happen with dedication and motivation ,other days i seem 2 find im reading the words and nothing appears to be entering!!

Like with any study i think repetion is the key and only in 1 hour chunks, write and draw things that help you understand the content and makes it stick.... Very hard to knuckle down though, ive been told the above advice time and time again however it still seems so difficult 2 carry out...

How long have you had your books 4??

Thanks for the tips so far...

Got them just before Xmas, but didn't make a start until Jan.

Yep - same problem I've got. Sometimes I'll be reading and I might as well be staring at a blank page !!.

I bought myself a white board yesterday so that I can write any important things I need to remember on it, so I can always see them.

:\

femalewannabe,

I am doing my ATPL Theory - distance learning - with Bristol Ground School.

The course is split in to two blocks and require 2 x sessions of 2 weeks. In each session 1 week is cramming and the other week is exams.

The total required time for the crammer and exam sessions would therfore be 4 weeks - which should meet your limitations.

At least this was the case a few weeks ago when i last checked. Hope it helps.

Not quite, AHMC.

For each module, it's two weeks of cramming at Cheddar (including mock exams) plus a week of real exams at a CAA exam venue. A total of three weeks per module.

My Apologies.

bfato is correct so this would mean you would bust through your 5 weeks leave.

It's a shame you can't revise for each subject and take them one by one like the PPL's.

Sorry, femalewannabe.

i'm not sure you can do the multi straight after ppl, on a lot of FTO websites the minimum requirements are 70 hours pic.

For the OP - um, whilst it would be nice (but impossible) to get the ATPL exams out of the way first, wouldn't it be better to get the PPL first to make sure you actually *want* to go all the way to ATPL?
My 2p.

JAA ATPL Theory equipment
 

In the JAA ATPL theory exams are we allowed to use caluculators. Also in Navigatin do we have to use a non-electronic nav computer or is an electronic allowed.

cheers,

planeshipcar

Electronic calculators are allowed, non-programmable and non-alphabetic.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fc...n_briefing.pdf

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fc...candidates.pdf

Unless your old school calculator was particularly fancy, it'll do fine. You only really need a minimum of sine, cosine, tangent and square root.

Cheers dude, appreciate that, however I'm still unsure whether I can use my electronic nav computer

Its essentially a programmable calculator so I suggest not, but in practice I've seen them in the exam room. Just depends how thorough the invigilator is really.

Also buy the Pooleys CRP-5, it seems to be the one the examiners used when devising the papers. However for some reason whatever you get will always be 3 degrees out, 4/6 knots over or under, etc. :sad:

Sorry mate, obviously I didn't RTFQ!

I've heard electronic nav computers are emphatically not allowed but I haven't seen anything written down. Bear in mind that whatever calculator you take in can be taken by the invigilator and replaced with a tuppeny-ha'peny effort that came out of a christmas cracker. There's no real alternative to getting back up to speed with the wind side of a whizz wheel...

ATPL Practice Questions
 

Can anybody recommend any online ATPL practice question banks?

Preferably free!

Cheers

Bristol Ground schools online question bank is well worth the £70. I know a few lads who have just used this to pass the dreaded ATPL's.

http://213.48.96.23/atponline/jalo/index.asp

The best of luck!

www.aerosolutions.be - they were spot on!!!! can really recommend them - they have bulletin board for all the questions - so people ask questions about them - remember dont just remember the answer is b , but why is it b!!!
best of luck on the mutiple choice fun......

Electronic flight computers are definately NOT allowed, you must use the CRP-5 or equivalent. A caulculator with a DMS (degrees,minutes and seconds) button is a must.

You also need a protractor, compass and a jepp student manual.

Evening ATPL classes (structured)
 

I know this has been done before, but I'm struggling to understand why no certified current or ex ground instructors have ventured into this area. Given that most Distance Learning students are the full time working type you would think there is a good market for evening classes. I work in London and have far too many commitments to leave work. At present I'm studying about 1 hour during lunch and a couple in the evening. After speaking to a few people it appears I'm not the only one asking this question. Any thoughts? :confused:

This sounds like a really good idea to me, I would sign up to a course like that.

A group of Instructors tried to do exactly that, albiet mainly on weekends for the Dist. Learning student. Sadly, there was not enough people out there who either who wanted it, or were willing to risk a new school. Alas, it didn't last despite the best efforts of those who did give it a go. Pilot Ground Training (PGT) was the company, try a search on here for the name.
Nice idea, but the only people who could afford to satisfy that demand is an already existing school, and a reputable one at that.

Where were the weekend classes held?

I know about 3 others who would be willing to enroll if such classes were set up in/around the London area. Must be more on here? I could do weekends, evenings or even a couple of days during the week. I think you're right about only an existing school being able to satisfy this demand. London Met instructors, you there! ;)

Evening or weekend Classes
 

Superpilot,
Pugzi is correct about PGT and we did give it a go but i guess our marketing was not on the boil at the time. I dont know of a provider who is offeriing evening and weekend tuition at the moment.
Anyway that said if ever you feel the need for private tuition Pm me as i am still in contact with all the guys who used to work for me at PGT.
Cheers Steve Tindle
ex director of PGT

The simple answer is that there just isn't the number of people to support a night school nor for that matter another training organisation sadly.

A search of the CAA website will yield that during 2004-2005 (only data I could find) there were 963 CPL's issued. Lets assume that 90% of these did the full ATPL's and not the cut down CPL version. That leaves us with 867 people. Now lets take out all the people on integrated courses - say about 200 for arguments sake? Thats just a plain guess out of thin air. What about other people on fulltime modular with the likes of BCFT, Cabair (both schools), Oxford, Coventry. Shall we take off another 200 say? Then that leaves us with 467 people spread throughout the UK and presumably Europe or the rest of the world. The problems of targeting these 467 are:

- how many would actually want a night class? Many people are quite happy trundling along at their own pace.

- where do you locate it?Your in London but another poster who thought it a good idea was in Leeds. So you already are thinking that 1 location isn't going to suit everyone?

- what do you teach and in what order? Some will be with Bristol following their "frame" based approach, others with GTS, others with Cabair, some with London MET, Naples, Glasgow, Coventry.... Each school has their own running order for the subjects which hampers any logical order for running the night classes.

- and the crunch one of how much would people be willing to pay which has to be balanced against the instructors getting a buck out of it. Finding a cheap location in London for example would not be easy. Most instructors tend to be outside of London in anycase and live close to places like BOH, Oxford etc so they would have to commute and make it worth their while at the same time.

I agree with your sentiments and at times I have often thought how great it would be to go get some structured lessons but as stated above it just isn't economically feasible. At the end of the day though your school is only a phone call/email away. Many have forums where you can post queries. Then there are the online databases with the ACTUAL JAA questions to help you out and get you over the finishing line. Good luck and keep at it.

Actually, there is a helicopter distance learning school about to start - and evening/weekend classes are on the list - it won't be too much trouble to include fixed wing guys on the common subjects, maybe even extend them.

We will be doing other courses (CRM etc) anyway so it won't be too much of a problem if there's a bit of a market. At Booker, or possibly Kemble, maybe both! Redhill is a possibility too, if I can get classrooms

Will be at the aero expo in June for enquiries

Phil

If you did it in central London I would be keen... but getting to booker or Redhill etc after work is a bit of a nightmare!

Other than that I think it is a top idea... oh and I can recommend Mr Tindle's private tuition.

Start ATPL theory right after PPL?
 

Hi there

I apologise as I'm sure this must have been asked before, but a search didn't turn up any results.

My question is, I've just finished my PPL, with all of almost 46 hours TT. Would I be able to start my ATPL theory studies (with one of the distance schools) at this time, or do I need a certain number of hours, or any other requisites before I can tackle that?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

you only need an ICAO PPL, i started with BGS with a 45 hour PPL.

Wow, that was a quick reply sir :) Thanks.