Is the scheme open to non EU citizens?

Heading for that big jet in the sky

An somewhat ambiguous choice of words for someone who is just starting.....:hmm:

BSK, I think your 3 questions have already been answered, all I can add - I'm also in the same age group doing my ATPLs at the moment. When I did my first ATPL ground-school recently most people were around our age, very few below 25, good few in their 40ties.. I'd say age shouldn't be an issue.

What could be an issue thou is sounds like you're looking at airlines close to home and dare I say, even sound to be a bit picky about machines you're willing to fly. That's a good long term ambition, but to kick your career off your chances of staying in Ireland are extremely small. Aer Lingus very rarely do direct entry recruitment for low hour cadets (and when they do, every CV from Europe lands on their desks). It practically never happens. Last year we saw one recruitment drive which was first in god know how many years..

Ryanair on the other hand wont keep you in Ireland. Low hour cadets start in Poland, South Italy and other places where no-one want's to work due to difficulty for a foreigner to settle down with a family

I don't want to burst your bubble and who knows, things can work out for you just the way you have planned, but I personally am prepared mentally and physically to leave everything behind, fly whatever, live wherever just to get that first gig. Ryanair job in Wroclaw will feel like a gift :) This attitude should make things easier for me, or so I hope

@ Union Jack ambiguous open to more than one interpretation; not having one obvious meaning!

If i do not believe I will get to that big jet then I may give up now :ok:


Thanks for the reply's. I am looking close to home and do have my choice of aircraft, however if and when the time comes I will be only to happy to take a position any where on any aircraft!


Currently I am looking at buying a C150 next year for hour building. I would like to travel to the UK and mainland Eurpoe so I am not sure if the 150 would be the best option...maybe a C172 or PA28

There's no way you will get a job close to home and on your choice of aircraft !!

If you're one of the lucky guys, you will spend a few years in western europe or asia on a :mad: rodster.
If you're not prepared for that, don't do it...

I wish you all the best, but it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock'n roll

OK, here you go....
 

50 years old, just finished ATPL(A) modular http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif taking 3 years minus 5 days. I passed my final 3 exams last week in Braunschweig, Germanyhttp://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif. Now onto IFR, CPL, MEP, and finally FI(A). It was reassuring to see that the LBA has slackened off in the fill-in-the-blank questions over the last 18 months. I only had maybe 2 in Flight Planning and none in PoF.

age can be an issue but so can expectations
 

I was reading this thread and I will just make a few general observations from my experience so far which I hope people looking to get into the industry will bear in mind.

I was working as an instructor for 5 years and more recently became an FO with an A320 operator(not PTF btw) at age 31.
Basically age won't be an issue if you have the right connections, in fact getting a good career in flying won't be too much of an issue if you have the right connections.

However if you don't have the right connections(like me) then life becomes a lot harder both in trying to break into this super-competitive industry and also when trying to progress within the industry. It is quite unfair but this is the reality.

If you don't have connections and are say over 40 then I think one has to have a long hard look at the situation. You will probably find work as a flight instructor if you are ok but it is hard work - more so than airline flying in my opinion - and I am someone who is passionate about instructing. Also it dosen't pay well unless you are instructing multi engine IR at a big school which usually takes a few years to achieve - and even then it's subject to the schools level of student turnover etc.

If you don't want to go down the instructing work then you might get something with parra-dropping or aerial photography but these also while fun don't pay much and can call for long hours.

Otherwise one has to look to going to Africa or Indonesia in the hopes of building their way up in GA there to eventually flying something like a turbine single cessna caravan. These eventually lead to a reasonable salary but you are very far away from home and eventually most want to return to their roots.

All of the above is very interesting flying and great if you are in your twenties or even thirties if you are single and enjoy this type of flying. But financially it's very hard. Particularly if you have a family.

Also say you do get lucky like me and get to fly an airliner - the pay is very good but you have to factor in the time spent away from home. It can be a big big problem if you have a family or even just a partner. There is a price to be paid for having a job like this so it won't suit everyone.

So I don't want to sound overly negative - The point I'm really trying to make is age is not a huge factor if you are happy to just have a flying job, but not necessarily a well paid jet airliner job.

I really love flying and it's all I've ever really wanted to do. However if I didn't love flying so much and know what I know now then I wouldn't go near professional aviation with a barge-pole....just something to bear in mind.

I like your 2nd last paragraph..I am also doing the same. I am not looking at big paypacket, i just want to fly...fly..and that all i want.

It doesn't have to cost £100k to train, only £60-70k if you choose the right flying school and not one of the big corps trying to take your buck. An article looked at this to really look at the cost...

Where your money goes - the true cost of pilot training - Pilot Career News

Start flying at any age - its never too late to live the dream! It only takes 16 months to qualify if you really give it your all so what are you waiting for??

Greetings all - any and all feedback welcome....

So the bad news is I'm planning to start flight training having just turned 41. I can almost hear the sniggers at the back. However, as we older folks tend to cling onto the fact, age can have its advantages in certain situations. I've already built a career (IT contractor) and am financially set without any kids, mortgage free and a supportive wife with a good salary herself. Any flight training will be paid out of savings without impacting our quality of life.

I'm under no illusions and recognise my chances of success are slim, so I plan to pursue this first and foremost to fulfill my love of aviation and finish off the PPL I started 20+ years ago. If that is all I achieve having learnt to fly safely with a new hobby then I'll be a happy man. However, I do have one eye on the dream of flying professionally - even this is just air taxis/sightseeing/instructing/or getting really lucky and flying turboprops somewhere. As such I want to give myself the best chance of success should I find I have the ability/desire to keep learning and improving all the way up to CPL/ME/IR.

As long as everything goes ok with the PPL, I'll be looking to buy a share in a 172 (or similar) then get out and try and develop my skills, have some fun & build hours to see where it takes me. I'll be starting the training early next year when my current contract (in the IT dept of a certain middle eastern airline) comes to an end and am taking a two year sabbatical to indulge myself and pursue this. So at the end of this two year period I'll hopefully have my frozen ATPL, a few hundred hours (95% on a SEP) and most importantly a shed-load of fun.

I'd love to hear any advice from people who have done similar. Thanks for taking the time to read and safe flying everyone.

Hi Bas

A few words of advice, most is common sense and will have probably already occurred to you:

Do not burn your bridges with your current IT career, you may have the opportunity to make a few quid doing some ad-hoc work while you are training and after training you might be grateful of the income while you are looking for a flying job.

The secret to finding that elusive first flying job is networking, I note that you are currently working on a contract for a ME airline, do your best to get to know some of the pilots, maybe sorting out some IT tech issues for them and stay in touch with them while you are training. The airline that you work for might not take on freshly qualified people but the pilots might hear of opportunities elsewhere for newly qualified pilots.

If you have friends or family who fly commercially, make sure that you stay close to them.

When you’re training try to enhance your network amongst other trainees and instructors within the school, any one of them might go on to fly commercially and could help you get into your first job. All these contacts will be invaluable to you.

Try to do the CPL and MEIR at the same school, some airlines like to see continuity in training at least during CPL and MEIR (not so much for PPL and hours building).

If you can, do the hours building within the area that you intend doing your CPL training to get used to the area and the visual landmarks around. I did my CPL with a chap who did all his hours building in Florida using an expensive GPS, his aircraft handling was great but his visual navigation was rubbish because he did not know the area well and he was not used to navigating without a GPS.

Do not believe any of the flying school marketing BS, they just want to separate you from your cash. I attended a very good modular school, they boast that all of their CPL/ MEIR students are now employed as pilots, which is rubbish as myself and the bloke that I was paired up with for CPL and another bloke that I was paired up with for MEIR are not working as commercial pilots.

Good luck with your PPL and taking it further if that is what you decide to do.

Given your positive financial situation, why not join up with a CTC etc?

Thanks Mick - some very good advice there....

FANS - I'd have thought I'm a bit long in the tooth for one of those cadet schemes.

Hello Again Bas

You're welcome to my ramblings, if any of them are useful to you then happy days!!

As far as I'm aware there are no age limits on the integrated courses whether you go in as a self financed wannabe or as a cadet linked to a particular airline and I have heard stories of people in their late 30s or early 40s getting accepted as cadets by airlines. I suppose if you can pass the medical and the selection process then you're in.

Obviously the integrated courses with CTC, CAE, FTE etc are vastly more expensive than modular courses but the integrated schools have the valuable links direct into the airlines so you make your choice and pay your money, as always there are no guarantees of employment with modular, integrated or even the airline cadet schemes.

Good Luck

You need to look into, as I would have thought it's worth a look and could be a lower risk & quicker route to RHS of an A320

32 years old. I'il be old to find first job ?
 

Hi guys.
What do you think about the real possibility to find my first job when I will 32 years old? Much old for the aviation field? At the moment I'm 26 and at the first step so the PPL. I'm from Europe (Italy). What do you think about the p2f? Thank you everyone that wanna sharing opinions. Have a nice day.

Hi Basil

I read your initial post with some interest. I was in a very similar position to your own. I started full time training age 39 at a well known integrated school and finished my training in 2010 just as recruitment slowed down stopped in aviation. It took me a long time to get a job and it is painful! You will need to be very resilient and there are many obstacles along the way that you will need to overcome. You are going to be up against it but clearly a commercial career is possible.
You will be up against some very switched on/capable/quick learning people who are attuned to learning volumes of information quickly. It came as a shock to me how much longer it took me to 'take things in'. You catch up and learn to learn but this can hit you hard.
Don't put too much emphasis on 'life experience'. My CP said that he translates that phrase as 'takes a bit longer to make the same decision and at 500mph time can be precious'.
Like it or not, the majority of employers will not look at you seriously...you will be viewed as a training risk.
I don't wish to put you off but you need to make a fully informed decision.

Hi Gentle Climb - many thanks for taking the time to respond and congratulations on successfully making the switch into the cockpit. I'd love to know if you're happy you made this move and are ultimately more fulfilled or has it just become 'another job' to you ?

I'm keen to get the warts and all view to ensure I make the right decision, so I appreciate your honesty...

Not at all you're still a pup, the perfect age for training I would suggest. If you get your first job at 32, you'd have 33 years flying ahead of you.

DON'T p2f !

]Thank you very much mate, i really appreciate your opinion.

I'm forty years old in two months and I'm currently doing my ATPL training. I am on a sponsored scheme otherwise I would not have made the jump from my previous career. I don't think I am finding it any more difficult than the other lads on my course who are nearly half my age, and in fact being older gives you much more of an insight into important skills like teamwork and leadership.

I am realistic about my new career, its work... Its not meant to be fun all the time. You turn up, do as professional a job as you possibly can then you go home to your family and your other interests.

Despite the fact that the profession apparently isn't as good as it was in the 1970's I cant wait to get stuck into flying for an airline...

Where are you from Sir? In Italy there's the legend that if you don't pay to fly (type and hours) you never will find a job with fresh atpl (In Europe). So, after i saw you history i think you are very strong person, and i share everything about your opinions 'n about leadership and skills... Have a lucky life and career.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it becomes just 'another job' but the initial novelty and excitement does fade fairly quickly. Getting out of bed at midnight to fly overnight in to a CAT C airfield at the end of the second sector loses it's glamour rapidly.
However, the enjoyment of seeing and feeling improvement and progression in all of the different facets of flying an aircraft is very rewarding. It's a cliché but climbing above clouds in to the sunshine on a miserable rainy day still makes me smile, but not as much as a CDA with a landing in the right place at the right speed...in one of our aircraft with no vnav capacity.
It is a very different career from my other business but I enjoy that a lot more now that I get away from it regularly.
You should also not underestimate the impact upon your family. Suddenly, I am not available...with 2 days notice I can be away for two weeks. Can you deal with that...can they?

Wow Sir, i really hope to realize my dream one day; not for the glamorous side, but specially for every moment like your had descript in your post...the reality is very different from 70's but the love for this field never change. Thank you for sharing with everybody us.

I'm 42, started PPL at 38, frozen ATPL at 40, modular in UK

I've been working as a copilot in a medium-heavy bizjet for 5 months now. Looked for a job for 2 looooong years, despite my strong connections in the corporate aviation industry from my previous job. Then i got the dream job...good money, 6 months off a year, Europe, great plane.
But I start to understand now why they give us that much money just to fly a plane.
I'm now half a pilot, half a father, and what's left is for my wife.
it's not exactly what I was expecting... I love the job, the flying is great, but I underestimated the negative impact on my family/couple life, it's really much more difficult than I thought, not sur your (my?) couple will survive that, we never think about it while on training.

I got this job because of my connections, otherwise I would probably still be unemployed. If you're more than 35, you can forget the airlines I think.
About my classmate, 5 young guys are at ryanair, one old FI, one old P2F, and me.

Hi everybody.
I also would like to share my current situation with all of you.
Actually, airplanes and blue skies are my big passion ever, and I really would like to become a professional pilot, but due to several issues up to now I could not fulfill my dream. I took different path from my young age : I got my master degree in business and during my working experience I have changed some kind of jobs. Now I'm working in the sales and marketing field for a multinational company, but I feel some " empty"in myself and I really would like to think a change in my life.
I'm not married and I don't have any kids. I could have the possibility to join an integrated course and trying to get the ATPL frozen in something like 15 months.
I don't need to make any mortage for finance my training.
I got my PPL (A) a couple of years ago, but considering my age (34years old) I think that the only way to get the licenses in short time is to apply in an integrated course and dedicate 100% of my time to this. Frankly for me it is not reasonable thinking to proceed with a modular route while I'm continuing working. My job absorb a tremendous quantity of time and a energy and personally I' m really not able to successfully conduct Both!
i don't want to be boring for anybody, but the question is always the same... do you think that if I take this decision, at the age of 36 when I get the licenses, is still possible to get a job or it is just a dream?
Honestly I'm open to move and to be relocated all over the world..that' s is not a problem. What I'm warried is to spend 70k€ without get any kind of possibility to work.
Another question, someone of you know the AFTA in cork or the GAIR in Portugal? Do you have any feedback on these?

I am in a pretty much similar situation, and I will be starting my training during the spring next year, so I would say that we are not old. Regarding the family... well, it's not easy, and I am not happy about it, but luckily for me, she is supporting me.
Good luck! :)

Great Posts, rich information. At age 41, single, I'm looking into modular training in Europe via Wings Alliance, though I'm a US citizen and hear that may further count against for employment there due to EU residency preference first for jobs there(?) I am curious whether anyone has thoughts on best place in the world to secure employment for older, low hr. pilot who would have CPL, MEP, IR and maybe MCC

I know in US min. requirement to be commercial pilot is 1500 hrs. heard in European countries it's more like 250, which it used to be here. That doesn't apply to ferry pilots though, not sure about corporate jet pilots.

Does someone has any information, feedback or experience on wings alliance?

I have a friend who is around 40, struggling to get employed as more than an FI. And he is literally a perfect fit for an airline so make your own judgements, time is probably of the essence but not crucial.

I admire the people here, starting at older age and still have the drive to find that first job. I was also like that 13 years ago. But things has changed. Somehow as a prof. pilot you also see the otherside of the medal, novelty wears off. What i find the hardest part of the job is that you always have to be flexible to move away to another base, abroad, away from home.

Me, i dont have a family,nor children nor girlfriend. Some say it is a blessing for this job. Well I can assure you, it is not! If you are based abroad, (commuting is not always possible) away from friends, all alone on your apartment on your off days or coming back from your duty in an empty house, no one to talk to......i find it really hard and after all these years, i still can not get used to it. Than that flying job is not that important anymore.

So my advice: be careful what you wish for. If you can do some freelance flying close at home. Take it and enjoy.

Well, reading this thread, I must be positively insane!

I am 41, and in January am starting an 18-month journey that will see me emerge at the end with a CPL/ME with IR, type-rated on a 737-800, and a bunch of endorsements. I will be about halfway to 44 at the end of that. One regional airline has a cutoff of 35, and they don't even operate 737s.

The more insane part is the whack of cash I am throwing at it.

Someone talk me out of it, lol!

What is my end-game, I would be 100% happy if someone is paying me to fly, whether it's crop-dusters or 737s, or whatever is going. Yes, I will be competing with people who are younger than me, probably fitter than me, with more hours and ratings. So what, like I said, give me something to fly, some small change, and I will be happy.

Ok, in 18 months will be halfway to a degree in Aviation Management as well, so maybe they will let me polish the crop dusters or 737s as well?

Maybe I will p-off the experienced guys with the ratings and hours, as I will probably be willing to go in on a lower payscale, as I won't have the same hours or time on type as them?

MAYBE, I will regret this move I am making, who knows.

I won't know all of the above if I don't try at least. So, like I said, anyone want to try to talk me out of it, I am all ears?

Marlon B,

Do you feel it'd be harder still for older low hr US citizen looking for job in Europe?
Thanks for comments

Hi everyone. I'm new here and considering looking into training.

I am 37, female, happily childfree (so no kids to consider in terms of costs or schedules), Australian.

Strangely enough I am a very nervous passenger but I don't have the same feeling about the cockpit. I don't know why, maybe it's a control thing. I love planes so much, I think they're like big, beautiful animals.

Obviously with training you start small, but I can't shake the desire to fly a commercial jet at some point. Anyway I'm still very new to the idea that this might be something I could do, so we'll see.

I don't believe your ever too old to start..

It looks like airlines are now starting to lift the age ban on applications, BAFPP, Gen easy jet, Virgin MPL all have no upper age limit. From talking to people and from looking at the Facebook profiles of the schools, it looks like there is a large spread of experience in new cadets. From someone on the BAFPP last year, he said there lots of people in their 40's applying.

But that said, you'll have to think long and hard about if it's worth it (financially and emotionally). But it looks like everyones on a flat playing field now. You've got to be in to to win it though.

First Job at 35, with 237 hours.
 

I'd like to pass on a little hope to most of you 'older' trainees.

I (as most of you) began my journey a very long time ago, perhaps at the age of 6 or 7 (mid 80's). Living in the flight path to an airport certainly helped me get by any slow days as a child, head always held high watching all the aircraft skim my parents house on an 8 mile final to Birmingham airport.
After approx 15 years of dreaming, I left college and headed off to Uni in 2001 aged 21 under the impression I would never be able to afford flight training. I finished in 2006 and thought "If I don't do it now, I never will".

After a long wait looking for work and moving across the country, twice, I started working for a delivery company near London and started my PPL in March 2008 aged 27. My PPL took me two and a half years to finish, with 67 hrs to my name, completing my skills test on Sept 2nd 2010 aged 29.

6 Months later I moved to Bournemouth and started my ATPL ground school at BCFT and finished in Nov 2011.

I spent the next 20 months working in dead end job, paying minimum wage (and sometimes, less), before eventually scraping every penny I had together to move back to Bournemouth and start my CPL/ME/IR in July 2013. I completed them all by Dec 2013, and was then very fortunate to get employed by my ATO as an instructor, where I've been ever since.

For a number of reasons, I didn't apply to any airlines until early this year aged 34, including a recommendation to flybe in April, which unfortunately was canceled at the 11th hour when CTC took over the recruitment.

I've since applied to a number of companies, from the channel islands, to Singapore. Although I was starting to become impatient, I was lucky enough to be offered two interviews in 24 hours at the end of Oct.

The first company I applied to required me to pass multiple online tests over 4 weeks before a phone interview (without warning). After the phone call I was offered an interview and assessment day with 29 other people over two days. The day consisted of a 90 minute face to face interview, group tests, and an advance compass test. In all it took 7 hours.
A few days later I was contacted and offered a sim assessment. After forking out a painful £700 for some practice at Virtual aviation in Cambridge, I headed to the training center and spent an hour or so in a sim (757) with two training captains and did what I was told.
3 days later I got a call telling me I had passed the assessment, but would need to wait a few more weeks for the final decision.

That magical call came yesterday morning. I've been offered a job flying 737s. The contract is in the post, and I start in January.

The total process has taking me almost 9 years from the my first flying lesson.

Stop dreaming and be active in your pursuits. Keep pushing, keep applying, keep current and be patient.
I have friends in their late 40s getting their first job.

Best of luck. Feel free to ask questions.

I am reluctant to mention my new employer, as I do not wish to drag them into an online conversation.

First of all, Paul, sincere congratulations. You deserve what you’ve achieved

You really applied yourself, never gave up and now have made the opportunity to get on with the job you’ve always dreamt of.
Now you’ll need all of the qualities you’ve shown to continue and progress in the business.

There’ll be times when you get fed up of not enough time at home with the family.
There’ll be times when you’re so tired you’ll wonder which way is up.
You’ll get fed up of the times when, every 6 months, someone tries to pull your skills apart, tries to find fault with your flying and yet still you’ll get through with the same enthusiasm you’ve obviously always shown.
There’ll be times when you wonder if you’re really valued when, once again, salaries are frozen to “help the company get through the downturn”. You just tighten your financial belt and try and ride it as you’ve always done. It usually sorts itself in the end.
As you get older, these irritations will seem to be more important. Your medical will eventually show signs of letting you down and yet, still, you’ll get your head down and cope.
All these travails will reveal themselves in your coming career. Be ready for them and devise mechanisms and a health regime to carry you through.

Flying is the best career in the world; never forget that when it gets tough or when some sh*t tries to spoil it.
Plan your career from now on with these thoughts in mind and you'll have a wonderful, rewarding time ahead.

I’m just coming to the end after 57 years as a professional pilot. I don’t regret a minute of it.

well, its been 2 years since my last post on here - www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/504192-have-you-given-up-3.html#post8430036


I have done some PA31 freight work (on IFR ops) since.


am now seeking recommendations for pilot career guidance/counselling in Australia (plse P.M/inbox me)?
Am working away at ATPL subject but the problem will always remain how/where to get those first 1000hrs without an instructors rating and/or parachute drop rating?
I'm 36 and need to be realistic with career choices, funding your IFR renewals, Medicals from your savings, whilst living on GA income becomes unsustainable real quick!
I have gone back to doing Airline maintenance to cover ATPL theory, IFR renewals & Medicals. My LAME does not cover any GA aircraft types and it will remain this way, as this only leads to exploitation. I do not intend on leaving an Airline MRO employer to GA unless its for a pilot role. For now getting ATPL subjects done is an ongoing process & only when they are ALL passed, will I again seek flying work.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions/feedback.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it doesn't add up. Your doing PA31 freight work on IFR ops suggests that You have CPL/IR at least, if so, isn't it the requirement in Australia to have ATPL theory passed before qualifying for CPL/IR ?