this is bang on! And I guess it's not just the lifestyle (although I'm not posh at all), the main problem for me is going to be the attitude! I don't remember when was the last time I was told how to do my job etc, so it will require a lot from me to reset myself to a blank page and essentially do it all over again, be a junior again, with blank stare and sweaty pits.. I can do it, I just know I can

It's not so much of being told how to do your job, rather the conditions you are made to work under by management, pay conditions, hours, rostering, commuting etc. Generally TC's that are not fit for purpose.

Like myself, I am currently very happy with the company I work for, but I can not survive alone on the money I am being paid for this job as an FO. I know if I stick it out, I will get where I want to be eventually, so we will see, if I am willing to sacrifice living and lifestyle, for the sake of a job that clearly underpays me.
I am lucky, because I still have options, and that is the best tips to all, keep options.

Actually I know some who have but I guess different things suit different people.
I'd only do it modular as I could work it around my current job.
My issue is a) My age and b) My high school grades. No gcses but equivalents to 4 but that's it. Did email ctc to get an idea on what I'd actually need for them or whether they would count towards it but they couldn't be bothered to reply.
It's time like this I wish I'd actually taken the time to put the work in at school and obviously time isn't really on my side. Can't do a full time course to get the gcses obviously so may look at some evening courses while I sort out my ppl.
It's funny because all the things I hated at school like science and maths I quite enjoy now just don't have the qualifications to back it up.
As for the money I normally earn around 2600 after tax with no overtime but we only do a 35 hour week. No sundays either.
If we work about 5 days overtime then we can get about 3500-4k. We get a £50 bonus for each rest day we work.
It is a good secure job but the railways are not what they used to be i guess in the same way the airlines have changed.

Yes you will be lucky to earning much more then £2500 a month for the first 10 years. No overtime pay, no extra pay to work in nights or holidays, no summer holidays, no holidays at all except when you are in low peak season.

Your high school grades are not very important, the maths is not very complicated, it's not really difficult the theory part, just time consuming.

Overtime does not exist, take you pay, and you will work as much as they need you for this month. 150 - 250 hours a month.

For me it's not really about the money.
Me and my partner live just outside of gatwick in crawley. We both do shift work and she does stopover work in her job anyway.
You say the math isn't important or the grades but I don't know many airlines willing to take people on without at least 5 a-c grades. Ctc won't. Not much point me doing all the stuff and then every airline turning around saying sorry you don't meet the minimum requirements.
For me I'd be happy on about 45k. Yes Id like to earn more but I'm not really a big spender.
We've just bought a house and the mortgage is about 1100 a month.
That's our biggest outlay and in 2 years that will drop when we remortgage.
I'd be quite happy at one of the smaller airlines but I couldn't afford to give up this job so my only option is modular.

Reality check needed there class2ldn - "For me I'd be happy on about 45k" - which 'smaller airline' do you think pays anywhere near that?? Assuming you got an airline job, you'd typically be starting on around £23k as an FO - maybe more, but possibly even less. You could do what I did and instruct, but unless you're lucky enough to get a job at a commercial ATO, it'll be a case of earning enough to put meat on the table once a week, seriously. I'm not trying to put you off, but you may need to realign your expectations just a little. Anyone entering the profession to earn good money is quite frankly barking up the wrong tree.

HW

class2ldn - I never seen any airline ask me for my math skills, yes you sometimes get tested for selection for BA etc., but this is rather the exception then the rule.

Of course you need to have a basic grasp of BASIC maths, but you certainly do not need to be a maths or science genius to pass ATPL's or become a pilot.

Another thing, nothing is certain that you get a job in your region of choice, your own country even, suddenly you need to start consider commuting, yes there are MANY jobs out there, for guys with some experience, but coming new into the business, well beggars cant be choosers!

I know guys getting their first job, 1500 Euros a month (£1150), increasing to 2500 Euros a month after around 2 years. Btw of this you have to pay UK tax if you still living / resident of the UK.

CTC is of course an option, not cheap, and you can never be sure what will happen by the time you finish your training, with £150.000 training debts, and no job offers except as I mentioned above. On top of the training with CTC, you will have to pay for your TR, as this is not normally included.

If you have this cash £150.000 stashed away somewhere, then I would say no problem, go for it, yet after this getting a job is still a lottery. I would say odds are around 30% of getting a job within 5 years after concluding training.

Modular will be slightly cheaper, I am not sure of exact figures, but I would guess if you start from Zero hours, incl. TR, you would probably need around £90.000 going Modular.

I would recommend doing modular over around 3 -4 years, enjoy flying, and see what happens. Instructing is not a bad option to keep you on top of things, it will not get you a job that easy anymore, but you will probably have loads of fun.

Thanks for that.
In regards to money if I could live on 23k Id be happy to take that.
I'm not from a wealthy background so to me 45k is more then I expected to be earning. All my previous jobs were around 25k anyway. That's why I realise until my mortgage is paid off a bit I couldnt commit to it full time anyway but I'm worried that I may be nearer 40 when Im finally in a position to approach airlines and I'm not sure how they look at people coming in at that age.

Hi I noticed some people on this thread said they already had a mortgage prior to beginning an integrated course. Do you mind me asking how you went about securing funding on an integrated course when you already hold a mortgage? I am 28 and a PPL holder but considering this route and just looking at my options?

Thanks in advance

I was a (very) late starter and fortunately paid off my mortgage around the time I started out, but having worked for ATOs you do see a range of funding options. The big disadvantage of going down the integrated route is you will of course have to fund the c£100k training costs up front, something you will never do as a modular 'pay-as-you-fly' student. Type-rating costs are generally in addition to what you'll have paid to get a frozen ATPL. As for Integrated funding options, the most popular source is the 'bank of Mum & Dad' (who themselves often end up taking out a 2nd mortgage where the student isn't a homeowner), 2nd mortgages where the student IS a homeowner, inheritances and the like. As an integrated course is full-time, you're unable to work part-time to fund your flight training. The one or two finance house schemes that are available generally don't cover the full cost of an integrated programme. All these are valid reasons why the modular route is the most popular option if funding your training is likely to be a problem.
Hope this helps.

HW

I know many guys who have done modular, who have got jobs now, equally many who don't have jobs now.

So its a bit of a lottery. If funds are not unlimited, I would do it modular, at a "small but busy" flight school, if in early 30's, I would do the FIC and try to do instructing with the flight school.
This way you build experience, enjoy flying without enormous cost, and gain great experience.

I got job before my CPL instructor, however he got my job a few years later, so it worked out in the end, but very random. Depending where you live in the country, there are various options for this route.

But lets not be naive and sugar coat the reality, getting a job either 30 or 40 with little experience is not easy, the odds are against you regardless, so if you happy with that prospect its just to go for it.

Another shot
 

Hi everyone.

I was thinking on giving it another shot.
Im 30. I hold a South American ICAO PPL with 500hr SE, class 1 medical, UE passport and whatnot. Im back in Europe now, looking for a good school to help me with the conversion of the PPL and the CPL+IR+ME training and ATPL theory. What would you recommend? I dont have a lot of cash, just enough to fly a few hours, buy a few books and sit for the exams. While this is a very hard industry to get into, I want to give it another shot. What do you think?

I am going to quote what I told you in the other thread: http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ml#post9308050

Another Train Driver here at the age of 28. Dream has been to always fly commercially for the airlines ever since I could understand my own imagination. I have tried to shake the 'bug' but to no avail and to me, it is a question of regret; what would you regret more....
Having gone for the dream and it not working out or:
Never having gone for the dream and one day you look back and wondered why you never did when you could.
I have an expired PPL together with night, 33 hours PIC and Module 1 of BGS purchased. All of this is just sat on hold waiting to be completed and compete it I will.
I have had many a word with myself in many mirrors and for me, it is now or never. I have no commitments and my job allows me plenty of time to complete the required elements.
So from here on in, I will give it 100% and I will succeed.

Hi guys,

Almost same story here. I am a hotelier at the age of 32 and would like to start my training by the age of 33. Would be able to get info or suggestion on some good& economical school based in Canada.

Approximately how much would it cost.

Regards

Sanay

after 30 y/o it is nearly too late.
Nowadays, airlines hire teenagers (18/19y/o) to accept poor conditions, but they can wear rayban and put a pic on Facebook,
the airlines press them like a lemon juice, until dry and sick (burnout, depression etc), finally they hire the next ones for a new contract with lower TCs.
good luck though

This is the most silly response i have read so far this yr @ pprune. Greenlights if you got nothing to contribute about just keep quite!

sanay121 and Train2Plane my in-law finished their training @ 35yrs. 4 yrs later last yr got employed to one of the M.E carriers. Nothing is impossible BUT it will need hard work and the RIGHT attitude. All the best to all!

Nay Sayers
 

Hey Train2Plane, it's been a good few years but I was once in your "boat", or at least on your train! I was 30 years old, I had a steady job in the non-flying area of aviation, good pay, good benefits, 6 weeks holidays a year and full medical and dental coverage. I also had a two year old child and another on the way, almost everyone I worked with said I was absolutely crazy to try and become a pilot.
I won't prattle on about the hours, time, money and blood that I invested in training because I'm sure you know what it will entail. I applied to many a company and was rejected at every turn, "you don't have enough hours, get some hours and then come see us", was what I heard over and over! I picked four companies that I wanted to work for, the first one, being my priority, got the brunt of my efforts. I flew to the city where they were based, three times, to see the Chief Pilot. The pit bull at reception would have none of it but I persisted and finally got to see him! After that I emailed him every week for 6 months solid.
Just over one year later, I received a phone call from him, offering me a job. The job was only for three months and then after that I would be made redundant. "Was I still interested", he asked? I immediately said yes! Then proceeded to tell my wife that I was quitting my regular job and was hired as a pilot and in 3 months time I would be let go and I had absolutely no idea how we were going to survive!
Suffice to say that the job went much longer than three months and I was not let go. Many years later I now sit in the left seat of a 777. If I had listened to everyone that said I was nuts and was too scared to take a leap of faith, I would not be where I am today. It was not an easy journey but it was well worth it and I am still as happy today as I was when I got my first job. Aviation has changed a lot over the years but those with a passion to fly will still do it. There will be many who will say you're crazy, it's up to you to decided what you want to do.

Good luck in your endeavors!,

WL

I was in the same dilemma around 7 years ago. I was going to take the leap to become a Pilot, or get on the property ladder.


Either option was going to cost around £110K.


Buying a house would have given me somewhere to live and potentially see my money go up in value.


On the other hand, obtaining a fATPL for the same amount of money would have only guaranteed a huge amount of debt. Simply because you can’t sell your fATPL if you get into trouble and you can’t afford to be sitting around without a job.


Then there is another dilemma, who is say that you are going to like the job? You can’t chop or change and you would be at the airlines mercy. So you’re are probably going to be put on minimal pay, made to do unsociable hours, and posted to the furthest reaches of the world. You will be a slave to the sky.


For example, I remember being on a flight to Egypt and thinking that our plane has already been delayed by two hours. So what must the crews day be like?
This how is must have panned out.

• They arrived to work on time.
• Prepared the aircraft.
• Sat at the gate waiting for departure.
• Flew outbound for 5hrs.
• Then they told us that they were preparing for a quick turnaround back to Gatwick.

So lets say their day comprised of a 12hr shift in a cramped A320.

I love aircraft and that burning desire to fly will never leave. But you have to stop and say to yourself, is it really worth it?


Since I made the decision to purchase my property it has nearly doubled in value, and I’ve also improved my career prospects. I’m now an IT Consultant, and 6 months away from becoming a qualified Plumber.


It hurts, but at the age of 40 I’ve now got a property that’s nearly paid for, a decent job, a life, and a second career option that comes with unlimited earning potential. All for the same price as a fATPL.


I heard that Airlines used to approach FTOs to pickup PPL Instructors, or even Crop Dusters. That's how my friend managed to get his first job with a low cost carrier, and now he's a 777 Cpt for Qatar.


Paying to fly and the thought of eroding T&Cs make me think that you might be safer on the ground.


NB: To the Train Drivers on here.
I wouldn't even contemplate leaving my job if I was taking home £2700 per month in my standard hours, or have the chance of clearing £3500+ with overtime.


It's a bit like the Tube Drivers, they love to complain about their £55K plus salary.
Try looking at what an A320 Captain gets paid when you get home at your regular time. :ok:

Hi everyone.

I will be 50 years old in a few weeks, and I want to go for my Aerospace (Commercial Pilot) degree at Middle Tennessee State University. I want to be a commercial pilot. If I'm too old for commercial pilot, I will be happy to be a corporate pilot.

I was mislead YEARS ago. I was told by someone that I trust with my LIFE...my father...when I was about 12...that you must go into the military to be a pilot. I said, "Ok cool! I can do that!" He said, "You don't want to do that." I asked, "Why?" He said, "Because you'll go in a woman, but you'll come out a man." I was done! := As a kid, that's all I needed to hear, and I didn't pursue it...until recently.

In his defense, he's "old school". Most of that generation of men did not and do not believe in women in the military. I forgive him. I just wish I had gone into the Navy anyway. :ugh: I totally trusted what he said, and did not do my own research...until now. I accept total responsibility for this. My fault.

Now that you have read this novel, is it too late for me? I really do want it...more than anything. If I had my way, I want to fly for either UPS or FedEx for the rest of my career.

I wouldn't say that you are too old to start learning to fly.


But, you might be too old in standing a chance of gaining employment with an Airline.


I don't know how the Airlines select candidates. Providing that you comply with their criteria. I don't think that the Airlines should be allowed to see your age on application, or even require to see it, unless they suspect that you are trying to deceive them etc...


For example, when I was 38, I had to grovel to a course leader to get onan Evening Course at College. He asked me hold I was, it made me feel humiliated and I didn't see any relevance to it!!! Especially when there were other older Students on the course.


I would like to see him again, so that I can tell him that what he was implying was wrong!! Because all of us Mature Students, have achieved much better grades than the younger ones.


So what does that tell you?


IMO you should based on merit and not viewed as a statistic. I'd rather employ someone that can bring more than flight experience to the cockpit, and most 20 year olds don't have that.


Sadly, I can’t help you with gaining employment. But I would say go for it, if you can afford to pay for it. And even if you don’t get to use it, you have still achieved something.


Best of luck.

On what grounds are people in their late 30's and early 40's potentially too old for employment ? I get what you are saying but I think this kind of statement doesn't help anyone, and is the mindset we should be getting away from. Imagine if someone said something similar in relation to race or sex, there would be an uproar. If you have the relevant licences and medical I don't see why anyone should be deemed too old for employment as a pilot.

Yes we all know it happens in the aviation industry, where age discrimination can be easily dressed up as some other reason not to employ someone, hours, experience, etc. I admit I have a vested interest here in that I am one of those older pilots trying to get a foot in the door, seeing all those young guns around me lining up interviews while I am left on the employment shelf. It's clear the only difference is age in many cases, and it is very frustrating. I've heard learning ability often quoted as a reason but there are many mature students completing degrees and other qualifications all the time. Each individuals ability to learn is differerent, and airlines should recognize this. Alas, while there is a glut of young low houred pilots out there, things won't change.

Sorry maybe I didn't word that too well.


You are not too old to start learning to fly in your 30's and 40's, or too old for employment. Unless, you are being viewed through the eyes of the majority of Airlines.


I can't see what they have to lose by employing older Pilots?


Do you really think the passengers care about the crews age?


Imagine :

"OMG, Why was that 45 year old F/O, allowed to pefrom the emergency landing that brought us all back safely? I wanted someone much younger than that :D"

PVCAKES3728,

Tried to PM but couldn't.

Since you're at an important decision point, if you haven't done it by now, you might try a more US-centric av website. Your issue has been discussed by others too. Try this one...generally civilized (I have no association with them):

Changing Careers | Jetcareers

Best of luck to you.

Luckily, I look much younger than my age :}

Hi guys

I am 31 yrs old and always wanted to be a pilot. Am I too late to pursue this dream??

All other variables favourable - the answer is no.

Reading this thread can be of immense help.

Lol. Short and to the point :hmm:

An initial type rating is challenging and needs to be completed within a finite timescale to a better than acceptable standard - if an employer is prepared to bond you for this, they require good odds that you will succeed in their timescale and to their standards. Youth presents lower training risks.

Younger employees are easier to indoctrinate, absorb information faster, are more mobile and are less likely to leave as seniority grows; many BA pilots will have spent their entire working lives there by the time they retire.
Because relevant experience is always measured commensurate to age - it's not as simple as just meeting the certification minima to qualify unless you are at the start of your career and you are young.
Yes, I think they do. I have heard comments concerning the youthfulness of both cockpit crew members and this is directly related to a layperson's perception of my earlier point about age being commensurate with experience. Employing older pilots however, with little experience would hardly compensate.

Reverserbucket,

"...many BA pilots will have spent their entire working lives there by the time they retire."

A worthy goal, is it not ?

bafanguy

It is, although of course few companies offer the prospect of an entire career with one employer. I am in favour of the suggestion that age should be no barrier and I know from experience that the US is somewhat different to other parts of the world in this regard, however in Europe, for some of the reasons stated, recruitment for that first job tends to favour the young.

Reverserbucket,

There's little "logic" to airline hiring mentality. Here in the States, I'd bet money seats WILL be filled and age will not be a barrier.

In fact, the company I worked for has been hiring people in their mid-ish 40s for some time now (even back when 60 was mandatory retirement age). There was a time here when 28 was too old. Back around the early 90s I worked with a new FO retired from the USAF. He was told he was too old at 31 but...magically, at 41 he no longer was !!

Seats WILL be filled !!!

bafanguy

I agree - I know guys in their late 40's and early 50's with no jet or T/P experience being hired by the regionals - they are marketable right now because they have 1500hrs either as CFI's or by other means. Europe is quite different though with no minimum hours requirement and an endless supply of young (non-sponsored or tagged) flight school graduates who are prepared to self-fund type rating courses (and line experience) at higher than market cost in order to secure a job. This in addition to those fortunate enough to find work where they are only bonded for training costs and where the employer selects those that present the lowest training risk for the reasons described earlier.

The other issue is scale - the US has an enormous aviation industry by comparison to Europe and whereas I have no doubt either that seats will be filled out of necessity, that level of demand will never be reached in Europe.

Reverserbucket,

Yes, somewhat different circumstances indeed.

I just don't get it.

All these people with good jobs that have dreamed of flying since they were 6 months old etc. etc.

Are you all qualified PPL's with an IR or at least IMC?

If not why not? If you dreamed of flying all your life then why are you only interested in throwing £100k+ at some airline scheme?

I wanted to fly since I was quite young, I was at the flying club when I was about 12 pestering them for info on learning to fly. I spent every spare bit of cash getting my PPL and then extra licences and flying all over.

How can you have always dreamed of flying, have a good job yet never had a PPL?

For those of you who do or even those who are thinking of training, get a PPL. Do your ATPL whilst enjoying flying as many different types as possible and get your IR. All these will be as much use flying for fun as they will commercially so not money wasted get a share in something and do that flying you always dreamed of. You may only have 1 or 2 passengers instead of loads of fare paying ones but who cares?.

If you still want to fly for a living after that then add a CPL (cheap if you already hold an IR) and an MCC then your ready to start sending out CV's. I tell you now you will make more contacts during your PPL flying than you ever will at some pilot training seminar. If you don't get a job who cares? All you have wasted is the CPL and MCC fee which is under £10k. You still have your current job and the ability to fly all over the world IFR in a shared aircraft which is what you have wanted to do all your life.

Of course, if its some kind of uniform fetish you have rather than a desire to actually fly you can always but some bars on ebay.

The answer is blowing in the windshear: sometimes dreams don't match with the wallet. Which is of course the main reason why flightschools are lacking students.

Prophead - well put.

The sad reality is that, particularly with the MPL, we are getting right hand seats increasingly occupied by automatons with little real flying experience in the real world. Sure, they can operate a medium sized jet and fly it within acceptable limits and to company SOPs. And good luck to them - many will have long, successful careers.

But have they ever been out on their own in the middle of nowhere and had a rough running engine? Ever been lost, I mean temporarily unsure of position, with the weather closing in? Scud running over the sea looking for a break in the clouds? Felt a bit twitchy when their lookout wasn't quite what it should be?

None of the above matters in the cosseted world of airline flying.....well, until that one time when the holes in the cheese line up. If only the travelling public had half a clue.

Heading for that big jet in the sky
 

So I have started on the road to becoming an Airline Pilot. Currently training with the National Flight Centre in Weston Airport, Lucan. Dublin. Ireland
I have a few questions!!

1) I am 31 this June 20th…I am giving myself 3 years to get to the magical ATPL Frozen……Am I mad starting at my age?

2) I am taking the modular route as I am working to fund my training…. some Airline prefer pilots who have gone through the integrated course, however I would class modular pilots as having a slight advantage as the learning is slower so in theory you learn more as it has time to sink in…correct?? If a modular pilot applies to an airline that states integrated only, will the application simply be ignored?

3) In regards to hour building, will it have to be done with a school / club? I have access to a friend’s Cessna 150 and I plan to travel around Europe once my PPL is completed. However, if flying a friend’s aircraft how can my hours be verified or can they?

4) I will be looking at applying to Aer Lingus or Ryanair… (Ryanair preferred as I prefer the Boeing yoke to the Airbus side stick) the type rating in Ireland is approx. €30,000 Euros which the airline gladly accepts then you live on bread and water for 6 months until you get the 3rd stripe and they start paying you! My question is I have been told Ryanair have started bonding scheme where the new pilot will sign up for X amount of years and they take the 30k from you wages?

Thanks for your time, any other hints / tips would be greatly appreciated

How old is too old after qualifying with CPL/IR/MCC(frozen ATPL) is too old to start?
 

In particular to the UK how old too old to have a realistic chance of making it as an airline pilot?.With anti-age discrimination laws now in place is there no such thing as "too old" or do the airlines find ways around it?
Cheers.

My personal 2 cts.

1. No you're not too old. Some airlines clearly prefer younger candidates, others don't care. In the corporate flying world they actually prefer older chaps.

2. Nobody cares about the theory. You will not be better or worse educated as a modular. The theory is too easy to be considered impressive so everybody gets 90+% average these days (especially with the QB)

2. Yes, your application will be binned instantly when you apply to an integrated only position. And quite a few airlines have CTC/FTE/ etc as preferred integrated suppliers. There are, it seems to me, less chances as a modular student to get into the big jets, but it is not impossible at all.

3. Nobody cares about your hour building. Just make sure for yourself, that you don't waste the hours flying circles around your hometown but actually learn something. Nobody checks your logbook for signatures. The CAA can check it if they want to by auditing your friend's airplane log if they desire.

4. Don't know. This bonding story was floating around when I started my training 5 years ago. Might be happening, might not? That said, aer lingus is by FAR the better employer (really, world of difference) so who gives a crap that they fly airbus? You're on auto pilot anyway so you might as well be comfortable.

As a modular student myself, I would like to add the following. I am currently only flying SEP airplanes around as a part time job in the weekend, trying to scrounge up a few hours here and there to hopefully move on eventually. I have friends that got a bonded TR on a big jet, others that paid their own, and others that paid for TR and line and are now actually employed somewhere else. A few are still instructing, and a single one never got a job and moved on with his life after a lot of heartache. What I want to say is that nobody knows what will happen in your career, and nobody in aviation is going to give a crap and go out of their way to hire you. In the end, it all depends on your perseverance and unfortunately quite a bit of luck/timing.