Thanks for the insight, rudestuff. Jammysticks I responded to your message but haven't heard back - your inbox may have been full. If you give me a shout I'll give you my email and we can go from there, seems a more efficient way to communicate.

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Until you have a posting history you don't have access to private messaging and adding urls.

Passing on your email is the way to go for now.

When to start ATPL Theory
 

I am currently completing the modular route and am presently in the hour building phase. I am planning to complete my ATPL theory distance learning through one of the main providers in the U.K.

My initial thoughts were to do my ATPL theory once I reach 50 hours PIC leaving me 50 hours to complete over the course of my ATPL theory course. This would effectively give me a 12-18 months to complete this, which I believe is realistic as I also have a full time job and other commitments.

Does anybody have any advice on this?

Hello all,

Just like many others in this thread I find myself faced with an important decision! I’m a UK citizen, living in the UK but also hold an Irish passport.

I currently hold a UK issued PPL (2019), with 70 hours PIC, 120 hours total. (300nm XC done to ELLX)

No night rating at this stage.

I’m distance learning the ATPL theory subjects and earlier this week I sat my first 4 Austro Control exams (Gloucester), so the 18 month timer is now ticking!

I am more drawn towards the route suggested by many here, that is the IR, followed by a SECBIR and SECPL for the time being. + night rating.

However, this isn’t really going to be possible in the UK in EASA colours? Is it? (The BIR can’t be exercised in UK airspace as I understand)

So will I be better off sitting the 4 exams again with the UK CAA whilst the knowledge is fresh?

I originally wanted the EASA license for more employment opportunities…..

Cheers!

There is a nice article on internet done by Quality Fly about modular vs integrated
qualityfly.com/es/integrated-vs-modular-pilot-training-in-2022

Integrated - Borrowed Money and Borrowed Time?
 

Has anyone any idea of the approximate proportion of integrated students currently completing their training using borrowed money? The BoE rate is currently 3% and the most generous mortgages seem to be 5.25%-5.75%, it's forecast that the BoE rate will go to around 4%-5%. I reckon it'd be sensible to assume that the interest on a flight training loan is around 7% in such a scenario, taking into account the lending bank's marging above the BoE rate. I know the media are saying that mortgages may come down due to the effect of futures contracts on bank lending rates etc. but I don't necessarily see this happening. Credit Suisse were recently saying that the BoE is underestimating inflation and implying that the BoE needs to be more hawkish when rate-setting.

Say a student borrows £110k (course plus living expenses) with a two year repayment holiday to allow for course completion and job hunting, at 7% interest that comes out at £125939 to repay at the end of the two years.

Historically, I believe flight training loans were repaid over a period of around 7 years from the end of the repayment holiday, assuming this is the case, that would leave monthly repyaments of £1901 and a total amount to repay of £159664. If we assume that a single person would need £1500/month to live, giving the current inflation etc. post-training, that would require a first job with a salary of just over £55k/year, or closer to £60k/year if they want to pay into a pension.

To keep repayments below £1000/month, the repayment period would theoretically need to be around 20 years, with a total repayment amount of £234337. In reality, a cadet would likely have accrued enough salary to be able to make overpayments and reduce the repayable amount and repayment term by a fair bit and of course there's factors like inflation which could reduce the debt in real terms etc.

In my view, these sort of numbers pretty much end any case for integrated training unless one can afford the entire cost of the course without getting into debt. To what extent is the whole integrated/MPL side of training dependent on cheap money? Could the economic situation make it pretty much unviable for flying schools to offer whitetail integrated programmes and for airlines to expect their cadets to fully fund the training bill?

Why don't you try to take loan and finish the ATPL course in EU EASA country ,for example in Hungary where the flying cost is still affordable and you obtain CPL/ATPL "frozen'' for about 45.000 Euro? The living cost is lower than in UK but ,taking the huge loan you can pay training+ living cost till you finish whole process in cca 2 years... Or,to do ICAO license in South Africa and many other places, cause of low flying fees and convert the license (if you want to convert to EASA) ? The only thing you will have to get enough loan for living cost and training for 2 years (with that loan you will pay monthly rate) but you're on "quick " for job after completed training... Just a thought... :)

If you've got money to burn - go integrated. Put your Patek on and drive your Lambo to school etc...

But if you need to save it or borrow it - go modular. The idea of someone paying £200k over 20 years for a licence that can be done for £40k is insane.

rudestuff is right, why giving so much money if you can do it for less... or you can use it for Type Rating ... Once you have license ,always you have option to do many things( if you don't like) , transferring the license , convert the license etc...

I've got a PPL so if I were to fund further training, I'd go down the modular route.

Overall, the point I was trying to make is that if interest routes rise, will airlines be have a wide enough selection of cadets to pick from for the self-funded tagged integrated programmes to properly function.

There's quite a few countries where airlines fund training simply because the cost of it is so high relative to the average wage. Perhaps that will happen here?

I was planning to go to an integrated program in Poland but their next intake is autumn 2023 and have reconsidered to go the modular route after some reading here. The more I read into it, the more it makes sense and saves money. Not sure how much truth there is that airlines prefer grads from integrated programs but I think it could be marketing bs?
I'm also closer to 40 than 30 and was told (by another school in Spain) that airlines only want to hire under 35s these days... anyone have recent insight into this? I've also read the perpetual "Am I too old" thread, so it won't discourage me.

Anyway, I was going to start with ATPL theory (distance learning from Bristol ground school) and knock out the exams but apparently there's this:
Before you start your ATPL theory course, you must have a PPL(A) issued to International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standards. This is a mandatory requirement, and you will be asked for your licence number when you register.

So I was thinking, isn't FAA PPL still ICAO standards? I hold US citizenship but I have a permanent residence card in an EU country due to family ties, with the unrestricted right to work in EU

I was thinking: PPL and IR in the States then returning back to Europe to do ATPL theory distance learning, then sitting the exams. Do I need to convert the PPL and IR ratings from FAA to EASA?

Next, CPL, ME, UPRT (at BartoliniAir, Poland) followed by Ryanair mentored APS MCC at AFA Dublin.

Can I have your opinion on this plan?

How many hours should I have with PPL and IR in the States before returning back to Europe?

That US passport is your golden ticket. You are guaranteed a job in the US. You'd be insane not to at least start your career on the US. Think of it this way: Pilot is a global profession. You don't get to choose where you live. Especially for your first job. Wherever you live in Europe now, you WILL have to move so don't artificially limit your opportunities even further.

With a US passport and a dream you are already closer to an airline job than most people with an EASA fATPL.

In your position this is what i would do:

You should plan to start your training in the US, getting an FAA IR and enough PIC IFR hours (50) to qualify for a 'no training required' EASA IR and enough total PIC hours (100) to qualify for the CPL

Pass your ATPL exams.

Come (go?) back to Europe with 180 hours and get an SEIR and SECPL.

Now your exams are safe for 7 years. You have breathing space to assess the job climate because you're only 6 weeks away from being employable in the EU (MEIR and MCC). If the EU market still looks **** you can continue with this plan:

Go (come?) back to the US. Go to a school that specialises in CFI training and spend on 50 hours of cheap hour building and RHS training for your CFI and CFII. Once you reach 250 hours, take your CPL check ride (but unusually in the RHS) followed Immediately by your CFI check ride (normally RHS). You might have to wait until the next day to take your CFII, I think there's a rule about how many check rides you can fly in a day. The 'normal' route is to get a CPL then start training for thy CFI/CFII, but there's nothing stopping you doing that training before your CPL as it's training as required.

Anyway, you now have an EASA CPL/IR with theory credit good to go for at least 7 years, and an FAA CPL/IR with CFI/CFII good to immediately. That's your ticket to the airlines in the US (once you've got 1500 hours as an instructor) - and the Multi Pilot time you get in a US airline is your ticket to an EASA ATPL with type rating should you be daft enough to return.

Very true, however I was hoping to at least be on the same continent. How feasible is it to work in the States and commute back home to Europe? My understanding is, if you're lucky, you'll be on a 4 on 3 off schedule? Perhaps even worse since you're at the bottom of seniority. Hardly enough time for a trans Atlantic commute, less so if the airline I work for is based in the West.

I've read that the States are(were?) hiring like crazy. I hear that the FO hiring has slowed down and most airlines are desperate for qualified direct entry Captains. A few regionals are offering 100k to 150k sign bonus for early 2023 class dates.
To be honest, I don't have much of a clue how bad hiring is in Europe at the moment. I was under the impression that, albeit slower than the States, we are recovering back to pre Covid levels of flying?

I think I will take this advice. Thank you so much, you've helped a lot. I hope to gain good experience in the States and hopefully can get hired and be back with my family in Europe one day. Ultimately, I'll get a citizenship in my current country of residence (hopefully within the next year), and hold 2 passports and make the best of both worlds.

Where to start?!
 

Hi guys,
Long time listener, first time caller.

Just after a tiny bit of advice which, as present, seems to be very hard to find.

Keeping it short and sweet - UK Citizen, UK passport, about to embark on the dreaded ATPL chapter, BIG question, UK or EASA exams?

Main aim is to move outside of the UK, but are there any jobs for people in my position? I'm aware of the EU position on the British, not working I'm Europe, and from what I gather, that has only bottled necked the UK market - too many pilots, not enough jobs. Doesn't anyone know of other regions willingness to take on low hour cadets? Wouldn't be bothered where the first job would be located, but at an age of mid-thirty, iv not exactly got "time" to play with.

Ryanair offer some type of hope for me, but with the whole EU baloney, just leaves simpletons like me, very confused on which path to take.

Im a couple months off the ATPL Mod1. Any advice would be well received.... apart from the "do both Easa and UK exams". Cheers

I vote for EASA exams straight , and check this option : ATPL Theory 100% online ... https://www.easy-pilot.com/atpl-theory
If we talk for Ryan , don't be surprised if they ask you for type rating (ticket for job) about 45.000Eur . Some of them are little cheaper 30-35 . We should get paid to fly airplane , not we to pay the company for flying . Europe need pilots either you are low hour cadet or no ,if you search you will find, in meantime why not to do and instructor course ? One + opportunity for you getting a job. Not bad idea, think about that.

You must convert your license and do the check (skill test) For distance learning you don't have to be here in Europe ,do it 100% online ,see the link down... As you mentioned EASA theory you will do in Europe this is good cause it will be much easy for you for further stage. I have left one link above answering to "ElCaptain45" but i will give you here again : www.easy-pilot.com . Ask these guys-see the webpage, they will help you 100% ,you will thank me after https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif PPL conversion is very easy ( HPL & Air Law) for conversion + skill test. Rest of the flying why don't you done in Hungary? This is the best option for Europe -no vat % for education. Flying is cheaper than in rest of Europe and all this is EASA. If you need info what i know from friend , pm . No pressure ,just want to help as many others might have benefit ...

Advice on the modular route 2023
 

Hello, a short background on me:

Up until school/6th form I had my eyes set on being a pilot and was targeting the CTC (L3) integrated routes/sponsored cadet schemes. Made it through the assessment centre at CTC for the fully self-funded integrated ATPL, pending the re-sit of one joystick aptitude test, but ultimately decided to go university on the advice that it would be good to have a backup.

In this instance, hindsight is an amazing thing as I would've graduated flight school 6 months prior to COVID and probably would have been sacked and possibly lost everything, so I don't regret this choice, nor having to re-mortgage my parent's house to fund it.

I've since completed a 5 year masters in Aerospace Engineering and during this time, I've seen the industry get hit from COVID and 'thought' that engineering would be better for me. However, I am now employed on a 2-year graduate program with a well-known aerospace company in the UK, and I am incredibly thankful for my job, but I can't help shake the feeling that deep down I still want to be a pilot.

Prior to reading through this thread, I believed that the modular route was inferior to the modular route and I would be second best in job applications (possibly this could be from my experience applying through CTC). I've started to consider how I might go about becoming a pilot again, now that the industry is starting to open up. I've been applying to the sponsored cadet schemes, but I am also considering the modular route, as I like my current job and I think I would be happy to take 3/4/5 years to study/fly part-time, funded by my job.

• I was hoping to get people's thoughts on this, and the expected costs for the modular route to a CPL and beyond. I know that this has been covered before, but with the recent hikes in fuel/inflation etc I was hoping for some more accurate numbers
• I have previously carried out 10 hours of PPL flying, but this was nearly 6 years ago. Would these hours be valid in any way towards a PPL?
• My take-home pay is ~£1800/month, bills and rent come to £800/month, so I have £1000/month spare cash. What sort of timeframe would this allow me to complete my modular route in? (aware this depends on my lifestyle choices). This take-home pay will increase to £2300 in 18 months time.
• Is it feasible to study for the ATPL exams in the evenings/weekends after work? The thought of having to do more exams after 4/5 years of uni is a sad one but part-time it may not be so bad, especially if it is broken up with some hour building.

I appreciate any thoughts you may have, and I'm also aware that I could be asking how long is a piece of string, but I'm not really sure where to start having been out of the aviation loop for so long. Feel free to bash any of my comments/questions.
Thanks!
Ryan

Hi ryanw1516 ! Welcome aboard :) I can say that you have good opportunities because of your current job because airlines would rather accept someone who is in the field of aviation than someone who did something completely different than aviation. Please don't get me wrong, but they would rather hire a pilot with a CPL license who previously had a job refuelling school planes than a pilot with a CPL license who previously cleaned swimming pools. (every decent job is a job with respect) . The fact that you said that you have experience from 10 hours of flying on PPL training means nothing to you. You have to go to an integrated or modular course, but in this case you go to the modular one because of the flexibility. If you are going to do a course in the UK, then you need to find out which ATO is near you (because you don't want to spend money on travel/fuel/accommodation) but also that the ATO has good qualities. Before you go, you need at least Class 2 for PPL, while for CPL you need Class 1. You will listen to the theory and take 9 exams at the CAA, after which you will have a skill test to obtain a PPL license (which is also one of the conditions for a CPL). You can finish flying training in a short time, but again it depends on your ability, how much you progress and of course on the weather conditions/payment. I can't say for the UK how much schooling is for PPL, but I know for sure that in EU countries it ranges from 8 to 15,000 Euros.
The training is at least 45 hours + skill test, so you will leave the school with about 50 hours of training. I would advise you that if you go flying, do it as often as possible, because 1 hour of training a month means nothing to you - you will forget everything the next time. When you do that, you have a time building of 100 hours, which must be registered as PIC (Pilot In Command). When you've done all that, the NVFR (5h) follows. All of this is a prerequisite for you to start training for CPL, and of course you start listening to ATPL Theory,(for example here you have Theory 100% Online- https://www.easy-pilot.com/atpl-theory ,and its very good price! ) where you then have 13 exams. How much time you need for those 13 exams again depends on you, but if you constantly study for 6 hours a day, you will need a good 10-12 months to pass them all (don't forget that you have a time limit of 18 months to pass all 13 from the day of the first sitting ). In the meantime, you will do IR-SEP and IR-ME, CPL skill test. For this "party" in the EU you need from about 35K to 80K - depending on the ATO. When you finish all that, MCC is waiting for you (about 3.5k Euro) and so on... I would rather say to find a job and let the company pay for Type Rating but your salary to be reduced ( Type rating cost a lot of money it depends on type of aircraft, but its tricky if you pay alone from your pocket type rating for A320 30K and you don't find a job within a year -your 30K is gone forever. Some companies do the type rating and this is like "ticket" for entering the job position- strange but true. If you make good organization, it will save your time, money and everything. I hope this does not discourage you from moving on to be pilot :) There is a lot of more to talk about but even this is too long ,but i wrote as short as possible :)

Ryanw1516 - go and get a Class one medical. Even the healthiest looking people can fail them so that should always be the first thing you do. Then go and get a cheapish PPL. Then come back here and ask for further advice.

This is a great time get into flying - we're on the cusp of massive recruitment. The Yanks are giving pilot visas for the first time ever because they are so short of people. The middle east are expanding again. RIA - the biggest airline you've never heard of is starting in Saudi this year with $30Bn funding - it's going to create a massive vacuum which will leave RYR etc desperate.

Let’s hope and pray for that! If only TR will again be paid by carriers, starting TCs are not abusive anymore and mid-late 30 yo like me are not rejected in some carriers I will be more than happy… maybe this is too much to ask

Best Route: Integrated vs Modular
 

Greetings everyone, just quickly, if you have not had a chance to read my first post, I would kindly urge you to do so. It would provide you with a better understanding of my background, objectives, and the questions I am seeking assistance with. I would like to express my gratitude for the immense assistance received on my initial post. While some members suggested that I may be averse to putting in the necessary effort and waiting for opportunities to materialize, I recognize that my lack of knowledge in comparison to the esteemed community members here has compelled me to seek guidance for commencing my journey and identifying the initial steps. While I understand that sponsorship opportunities are scarce, I have concluded, after careful consideration of all the posts, that the modular approach may be optimal for me given my absence of flight experience, barring occasional passenger travel in my father's plane which he no longer possesses, unfortunately. In my earlier post, I had mentioned my inability to finance flight school, but after conversing with my parents, it appears that funding may not be an insurmountable obstacle, and hence, that avenue remains open for exploration if necessary. I would be grateful for any insights into the feasibility of this option or other potential pathways that might be more advantageous.

I was also curious about the time and cost involved in achieving an ATPL via the modular route (though I acknowledge the answer to this may not be straightforward), as I've heard that this is the objective I should be targeting. Furthermore, I had heard about the existing dearth of pilots in North America, and I was pondering whether pursuing an integrated approach and acquiring a pilot's license in North America could be a viable alternative for me, if I were to obtain a green card.

I apologize for being unable to respond to comments on my previous post due to technical constraints, but I wish to extend my heartfelt appreciation for the invaluable insights and experiences shared by everyone. Your assistance has been of tremendous help, and I remain grateful for your continued support.