A very fair point, however you also need to consider the payment structure that you will be tied to with an integrated course vs the flexibility that modular training offers. I did do an integrated course and found myself in a position where I was stumping up huge sums of cash despite having to put up with delays in training etc etc. . If I was modular then I could pay for my training phase, and if there was issues then I could take my business elsewhere. Integrated schools have you bent over a barrel until you have your license. However when integrated courses work, they work well and they do suit a lot of people to immerse oneself in the huge amount of study that is required.

Now you'll probably get a torrent of "advice" on here telling you to start/not start training right now. Truthfully there will never be a perfect time to start, and only you and your family know the level of risk you are willing to take on. BUT for heaven's sake protect yourself as much as possible financially, and have a career to fall back on should it not work out.

Also you'll find that the prices of the two 'structured modular' courses you quoted are on the high side - once again ATOs squeezing prices up where they think they can get away with it. Modular can often be completed for £20K less than that, sometimes even lower.

The trick to going modular and saving money is to study while you're working. Ideally you would make use of your holiday allowance and get a PPL in 4 weeks, or failing that, two 2 week blocks. That's not as hard as you think if you do it somewhere sunny, and turn up with all the exams passed and nothing to do but fly. You could even take 10 hours over weekends to learn the basics, then do an accelerated course full time.

Once you've got your PPL and night rating, start the ATPL exams. Take your time and study no more than 4 subjects at a time, take the exams then move on. 4/4/3/3 still gives you plenty of options for resits. While you're doing that, get a cheap preferably non-equity share in a 150 or PA38 - something that you can fly for less than £100 an hour. Plan to fly around 50 hours making sure you use the time wisely - learning the area for your CPL and getting plenty of cross country time. You should be half way towards CPL, and you've spent less than £18,000

Once you've passed your final ATPL exam the clock is ticking. You've got 36 months to finish up. Start with a CBIR which should cost around £6-8000. An IRR/IMC costs £2500-3000, so essentially to get an IR via the CBIR route you'll need do that twice with an extra 10-20 hours solo practice. So now you've got a PPL/Night/SEIR 150 hours and you've spent £26,000

With 50 hours left to go, I would assess the industry and see if it's worth getting a multi rating yet. Assuming it's not, I would just hour build for another 35 hours (£3500) and do a 15 hour CPL course (£3500) Total spend? £35,000 once you've paid CAA fees. Now you can get an FI rating if you want to teach (£8000) or for the same money you can get your MEP and MEIR *when the time comes.

Of course, if you really want to become a pilot cheaply, have a read of part 61.129 then get yourself a training visa for the US. You can do all of the above for about £20k and come home with over 1000 hours.

Structured modular and issues since Brexit
 

Hi all,

I'm putting together a plan to begin the journey to gain my frozen ATPL and having rad many comments I believe a structured modular route would be more beneficial than going integrated, not solely from a financial perspective but also from a licensing and speed perspective as i've heard horror stories of huge delays waiting to complete flying hours, and issues with licensing being held up/exams lost etc.

My question is, as a British citizen (sadly) and since Brexit would anyone be able to recommend/ suggest a smart route for gaining my PPL, IR/NR and hour building abroad, and any issues that I might encounter with licensing conversions back to UK. I'm wanting to gain an EASA license, not CAA, but I know some licensing states can be tricky.

I'm considering either USA, Spain or Greece due to predictable weather and speed gaining flying hours. I'd also look to complete my ATPL theory at a similar time, then I have a school in mind to complete the final licenses (CPL, APS-MCC etc) as a package deal.

Lots of schools i've spoken with seem to offer modular routes but as they also offer integrated whenever I speak with them they try and put me off straight away and lead me on to the modular route. I'm worried if I persist with them they'll purposefully give me second hand training out of spite. Maybe just being a bit sceptical?

Thanks in advance - hugely appreciate any advice you can give me.

Do you even know why you want an EASA licence?

Wanting both I can understand, but wanting EASA only doesn't make much sense, unless you have dual nationality?

If you want to waste a lot of money, go integrated.

If you want to work at your own pace and hold down a job, go modular

If you want to get the most hours and spend the least money - go to the US for 2 years.

Thanks Rudestuff, appreciate the response.

So I might be slightly naive but going by the advice i'v been given my UK as well as EU based ATO's I was under the impression an EASA license would be superior and is accepted more widely than the CAA since Brexit? I didn't think a visa would be the most important thing to consider as I assume if a job offer is made by a foreign based company then you can apply for a working visa in that country and have sponsorship? I.e. if I was to apply for work with Ryanair, and I was offered a job flying say based in Palma, the visa would be a secondary consideration as i'm not necessarily moving to a location before applying for a positiion? If i've misunderstood this then clearly I need to read up further on my options.

Most of the EU based ATO's I speak with train a mix of cadets with may from the UK and still following an EASA license route purely as training is cheaper, faster and accessible.

I'd be keen to learn more about what my options are and what i've perhaps misinterpreted if that's the case?

The right to live and work is equally as important at a professional licence, both are a basic requirement. In the short term there will be little to no chance of a UK pilot being sponsored for a work visa in Europe: there a simple too many unemployed European pilots.

As for career advice, you'll get plenty on here. But it really would help to know as much about you as possible, otherwise a lot of assumptions have to be made.
If you're reasonably smart, just inherited £50k and can go anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat - great.
If you're married with kids and can't go more than 20 miles from Stockport once a week and you've got no money, well that's a different kettle of fish.
Put simply, if you're prepared to put 'the dream' ahead of all else, smoking/drinking/relationships - then becoming a pilot is quite straightforward.

Hi Rudestuff.

So I would say I am absolutely in the former camp. My situation is in early 30's, saved enough to cover most costs, have zero dependants (partner or kids), educated to degree level so would hope with hard study and focus I'd be capable of passing ATPL's, and I'm not only available too, but also keen to study abroad so I am in a very flexible position.

I suppose the tricky part is that as i'm fortunate enough to have a number of options i'm finding it quite difficult to decide on the best route and not waste this very privileged opportunity.

I've flown 5 hours in a mix of small aircraft and I know it's something I want to commit to for the long run, but i'm conscious that i'm no spring chicken, so I suppose the most important thing for me is finding the most suitable route to give me the best chance of landing a job asap after graduating. Ideally i'd like NOT to stay in the UK and would be keen to take a job in just about any country/ airline that would have me. Hope that sheds some light on my concerns and personal situation.

How is it possible to do in US only with 20k and after what will be the price to convert here?

I literally just told you that. Read 61.129.

As for conversion to EASA: you'll need the medical, 14 exams and (thanks to CBIR) training as required for the IR. You should be able to comfortably convert in about 10 hours. You can work it out based on your local prices.

What is it 61.129? Thanks
I opened i thread few days ago, I’d appreciate it if you could help. It’s very hard to start, I don’t have nobody that can give me a suggestion.

Piece of advice required - IR/SE vs IR/ME
 

Hello to everyone. I've been reading this forum for years, and its now time for my first thread :8

I finally got to the position where I can afford to start my professional pilot training (modular, as I want to keep working on the side), and my anticipated path is a little unusual, reason why I would appreciate your thought about it.

The flight school in my city offers a full ATPL Theory + CPL + IR/SE course, but they do not have a multi-engine aircraft, nor a certified simulator. BUT, they do have a very nice non-certified simulator, that can be used for free as much as desired. Obviously, I would then need to do an IR/ME course in another school, to be able to land a job.

I pretty much already decided to do my ATPL theory + CPL with the local school, but the main purpose of my question is to understand the pros and cons of an IR/SE training that will be done exclusively in the air on a single-engine aircraft + an additional IR/ME course; VERSUS a more traditional IR course, where most of the flying will be done on a certified ME simulator + about 15 hours on a real plane.

First question; would one or the second alternative make me more or less attractive towards a potential employer?

Second question; does anyone have an idea of the time necessary to upgrade from a SE/IR to a ME/IR for a regular student that just completed his SE/IR? Are we only talking of a ME rating + another skill test, or is there something more behind it?
The purpose of this question is for me to try an monetise the cost of the "ME/IR upgrade" and put it into perspective with the traditional training. The SE/IR is cheaper than the ME/IR, but I have no idea where will the ME/IR upgrade will bring to total cost.

If someone wonders, the reason why I'm not going directly for the IR/ME is because the closes flight school having an ME represents an about 5 hours round trip, that I would need to do about 40 times. I'm also ready to chose this alternative, but it would need to have some significant advantages, that I do not see at this point.

I'm looking forward to reading your opinions.

CPL+SEIR Is by far the best option in today's job market. It will cost you less than £30,000 but you'll have broken the back of it (CPL done, ATPLs safe indefinitely etc) and you'll only be 6 weeks away from an MEIR/MCC, which you can get when the market is right. Well done and good luck.

Hi all,

I am currently considering the modular route and I have a few questions (EASA).
From my understanding the route is: PPL > hour building > ATPL theory > CPL > MER > IR > MCC & airline pilot standard > UPTR

• A pilot I spoke with recommended doing the hour building after the ATPL theory. Is that a requirement, or any specific reason for that? Will that be ok if I do the hour building between the completion of the PPL and the ATPL theory instead?
• Again, about the hour building, does it matter where I do it? Could I for example do 40 hours in Spain, 40 in Portugal 20 in the UK? Or is it recommended I stick to the same country/provider for this too?
• Would it be fair estimate that after the ATPL theory, it would take me an average of 3 months to complete the CPL, ME, IR, APS/MCC and UPTR?
• When building hours, are there any specific requirements? Like night flight time, cross country, cross country lading at a different airport etc?

Would be great if someone knew the answers to those!

Thanks

That is one of many modular 'routes', and also the most expensive!
The CPL requires 200 hours. The IR does not. Which one are you going to do first?
An MEIR requires 15 hours in an MEP, an SEIR to MEIR upgrade requires 5 (some of which can be SIM) which do you think is cheaper, an SEIR test or 10+ hours multi?

To answer your questions specifically:

I would always advise to get the PPL then forget about flying and concentrate on the ATPL exams. Sure, you could hour build at the same time, but there's really no need. It all comes back very quickly. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that: you don't want to spend the summer studying and leave hour building until the winter - especially in the UK. The bottom line is you don't know exactly how long those exams are going to take, so just get through them.

Hours are hours: it doesn't matter where they're flown or the reg of the aircraft. That being said there's a lot of sense in flying as many hours as possible in the area you intend to take your CPL test. It's not much different to the PPL test, but not getting lost definitely helps the pressure off!

3 months is quite reasonable to get everything done flying-wise. Although the weather plays a huge part. Allow 2-3 months in the summer, longer in the winter.

There are requirements for hour building, all laid down in Part FCL, Cap804 is a good reference too. The big one is 100 hours PIC and a commercial XC, but it's always a good idea to log as many columns as you can because you never know what you'll need to show in the future. One day you'll need 100 hours of Night for an ATPL. What if your first job is Day only? It happens. You can log Total, PIC, night, cross country and Instrument all at the same time. Don't waste your hour building just chasing the PIC.

Hi rudestuff , thanks for your reply. In regards to the first question, I was asking if I can do it before the ATPL theory because I intend to do the PPL and hour building along with my current employment and then stop working to do the rest. Due to the type of work I do, it is very hard to come out and back into employment just like that, so the most I can do along with work the better. So it sound to me that it doesn't really matter if I do the hour building before or after ATPL theory then, as long as it's done, is that right?

Correct, it doesn't really matter when you fly the hours. Given a blank schedule it would probably be better to concentrate on the exams, then fly - simply because you'll have a lot more recent experience when it comes to talking the CPL and IR tests. Broadly speaking, the more hours you have in a short period of time immediately prior to your test, the more comfortable and proficient you would expect to be. But other factors come into play in the real world, like trying to keep a job going!

The best piece of advice I can offer in terms of saving money is this: get a single engine CPL and make it the LAST thing you do. (In an airplane).

Hi all,
Interested in becoming a pilot, like many before me. I have spoken to a couple of schools and they made integrated sound very attractive, however having done my own research I think I could probably do modular full-time and save serious money. The problem being of course the different views about the job market I'm seeing. I would be putting my entire life savings on this plus some help and a loan, so I want to make the right decision. In my head I have it as PPL + night rating in a club, ATPL theory from an ATO with the best value (I've found for 60% the cost of the nearest school's theory programme), IR with a school, potential hour building in the US for condensed time benefit, then either:

A) SE rating on to CPL with an eye to becoming a flight instructor (modest salary but at least it's a career in flying), and once in position financially go for ATPL
B) Full steam ahead on ME class rating/MEIR and on to ATPL with an eye to working in airlines

Obviously the latter is more risky. That's a sticking point. I've read that Boeing are predicting a serious pilot shortage and that many pilots will be retiring over the next 10 years, combined with hiring 200-hour pilots it's a good time to learn. However I have also read that this is not true, many pilots still waiting to get back and that there aren't actually that many jobs. Both schools I have spoken with claim to have a great track record of pilots getting jobs with airlines pretty much out the door, mentored programmes and that.

Although the idea of paying an airline 30k for a TR for the potential of a job isn't enamouring. Frankly, I find it despicable that they do that, which is part of the concern: conditions for pilots getting worse over time to the point it's not worth the investment, no matter how much I want to be a pilot.

I would appreciate a candid, honest and up-to-date assessment - the more cynical posts I've seen had come from 2021. Coming towards summer 22, Covid for most is forgotten and now we're onto the next hamster-wheel that is UKR/RUS (interested to see how people think that will impact the market as well).

Thanks for reading.

Hi Daeln,
I'm in a very similar position to you, being in Ireland and also just about to start training. My main concerns about the future of this career centre around the worsening employment conditions, job stability, and the increasing slice of the flying pie that is taken up by automation. So far I've concluded, however, that I'll take my chances with this career, as I might well regret it if I don't.

I'm currently weighing up various ways of training, with the ultimate goal of flying for an airline. I'd be very interested in getting in touch to brainstorm some ideas for training, if you'd like that? I have sent you a private message.

There's no right or wrong way, just the one that suits your situation best. The cheapest modular route to a multi engine CPL/IR is to go for a single engine CPL/IR first, so the two options above aren't either/or. It's an easy decision - to for option A then consider your options. I wouldn't recommend flight instruction full time. Maybe as a part-time gig but you can't really make money from it like a 'proper' job. If you're young, free and single and don't need to hold down a job, then I'd still recommend training to CFI in the US then coming home with 1000 hours - assuming you can still get a 2 year visa. With literal interpretation of part 61 you only need 100 hours in an airplane. Its the cheapest option of them all...