Modular students have trouble finding a job, even in this favourable period ?

Better, it depends on what you consider better.
Could you please tell more : is there a type of carrier that will be more prone to recruit modular students ?
Do modular students have more trouble getting a job on medium jet ?

Modular Vs Integrated Vs money
 

Hello,
First of all i am looking for advice from the people in this forum who have actual experience in this area and have gone through process' similar to the ones i plan on going through.

I am currently finishing an aerospace engineering Beng degree from Sheffield university (finishing modules from home in south wales), initially i had read a lot about the integrated courses that CTC/OAA and FTE offer and i was sure that was the route i wanted to take to get into the left seat as quickly as possible with the most prestigious school. But now i know there is no way i could take a loan out and secure it against a house. I would like to fund it off my own back. Funding it myself there is no way i could afford the £80000 price tag most major integrated UK routes cost.

Im now looking into modular training with various different flying schools and i was hoping to get some advice on the best route to take. I want to learn in the UK, in order to afford the fee's of modular training im going to have to get some sort of job probably in engineering. However the cost of modular training in the UK is still around £40-50k so im guessing its going to take me absolutely ages with say a 20k graduate job. Also ive heard sponsorships are very few and far between so i cant bank on that.

As im currently living in south wales with family i dont have any living costs which i was hoping to use to my advantage and maybe save to get my PPL with Aeros based in Cardiff (if anyone can vouch for them?).

Still i have no idea which FTO i would choose for ATPL theory exams. Or who i would choose for ME CPL/IR/MCC/ JOC. Ive looked into schemes like CTC takeoff and OAA Waypoint but they're way to expensive. Ive also been looking into FTE integreated flight deck programme based in spain however even thats £63k.

Another thing i was worried about is how long the modular route is going to take, given that i will have a full time job, im not sure how much of the training you can actually do part time. Or would it be better to get the PPL (10K) whilst working full time and then save save save untill i could afford the £40-50k for the ATPL theory/ME CPL/IR/MCC/ JOC. Or would it be better to get a loan for the ME CPL/IR/MCC/ JOC part and pay that back later on somehow.

Would appreciate some advice, thanks.

Hi there,

I'm in a very much similar position to you, except living up in Yorkshire with family and about to graduate with a Law degree. So whilst I can't offer any advice, I'm also looking for the exact same advice you are in terms of best training routes, so hopefully we can get some good info :) I'd also intitially thought integrated was the way, but I'm now modular all the way!

Just out of curiosity, would you guys still advise Modular route over an MPL with an Airline, let's say Easyjet MPL for example?

Depends.

I went modular and I don't regret it all. My loan is low comparing it to MPL and integrated students. But the MPL students have a secured job. Which you can't find easily while going modular. If you can entry a MPL programme, go for it. But keep the loan in your mind, which will give you a headache.

But paying off your loan while cruising at FL380 is much better than flipping burgers.

Hey JDB275 - Im in a similar boat to you, I'm from Wales, just graduated from University starting a graduate job near London. Seems like it will take a while to save to get the modular route. I had a trial lesson and Cardiff Aeros and I think they're fairly decent, in terms of value for money: Wolverhampton flight school is pretty cheap for a PPL, if you saved about 7.5k then went to Wolverhampton flight school you could do it in a few weeks.

Success stories
 

Hi all,

I don't think there's a specific thread for this, apologies if there is. I'm a newbie, about to start a PPL on the modular route to the cockpit. I'm mid 30s to time isn't particularly on my side.

I'm just interested in pilots posting here with real success stories on who they fly for and how they got there. Mainly modular students but also integrated too to balance up the argument.

The reason I'm tentative about starting down this path is a) Deciding which is the best route but also b) from reading this forum, is it really worth the investment to do it at all?

Some lead you to believe that the world will be your oyster once you have a fATPL and others seem to suggest it's largely irrelevant because if you don't have an extra £25k to pay an airline for TR then you won't get a job anyway.

I'm wondering how ethically sound the whole industry is when you have to pay someone to give you a job. I have the means through success in my other career to fund training to an extent but my fear is that I'd get priced out of the market by all the rich 18 year olds with bottomless pockets. I think the industry realises that money is no object for many pilots.

I'm passionate about achieving this goal but it cannot be at 'any cost'. Investing life savings into something isn't something I'm going to take lightly so any positive spins on this would be most beneficial.

Also any insights into re-occurring costs would be great. I.e say I have a fATPL and don't get employment, do I have to re-validate every year and pay thousands whilst waiting for that job? I realise the medical needs renewing every year too.

Lots of questions and still no clear path!

There is no magic solution that fits to everyone
 

That being said. what I (50 years old, so the majors are not an option) worked out as an end goal: Freelance pilot (CPL/IFR MEP) with a FI rating. To reach this goal I chose the modular route since I can work and train at the same time. Figured 50K Euros by the time all is said and done, over 4 years. Making a per year investment of 12,500€ (about 1000€ per month) and I hope for a ROI of about 10% on that inverstment when I retire. I have a good paying job, flexible work hours, solid family support, and the drive to get it done. BUT MY SITUATION IS NOT LIKE ANYONE ELSES. My advice, sit down, do the math, work out how many hours you need (145 hours for PPL = 100 Theory + 45 flying, 650 ATPL Theory, 50 hours IFR flying time time, CPL 15 flying hours, MEP + MEP IFR 11 hours, FI 115 hours theory and flying).

When you work out the costs, add at least 10% for any extras (maps, headphones, landing fees, beers with FI) or unexpected issues. There is no magic solution, but if you sit down, analyze, and try to work out plan, you will definitely be further ahead than the folks who just dive in without thinking.http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Modular Training: How many FTOs?
 

It seems that many (although by no means all) on this website recommend that Modular Training be done at 1 to 2 schools. Does this mean that the PPL, ATPL Theory, CPL/ME/IR, and MCC/JOC should all be done at 1 to 2 schools, or simply that only the CPL/ME/IR be done at 1 to 2 schools? Thanks!

I'm wondering the same thing :)

I have my PPL and just about to finish my last theoretical ATPL exam. I have been browsing for a school to finish my multi-engin, IR and maybe some hour-building and have been looking at school all over europe without really knowing if it is a good school or not. Anyone have any solid recommendation?

my story
 

Im stuck in the same situation as many in this thread and need to evaluate my choices wisely.So im 19 ive recently just finished my a levels and realised i didnt want to go to uni so went straight into a job baggage handling.

I realised i then had a massive passion to become a pilot and after a summer i changed jobs and im now a cargo loader/loadmaster at ema.Now 5 hrs into my ppl at sfc egbn and trying to save every month to fund my dream.ive realised the company i work for does have a pilot cadet scheme but i bet its hard to get on. I just need advice on funding and wheres best to do my training as i live in Derby and i can't find much

Does it matter where you do your PPL
 

Hi guys,

People tend to advise that you should do your modular training a 1 or 2 schools. Does this include your PPL or is that not an issue?

Liveforthesky

It is only concerning the CPL, IR and possibly MER (makes sense so that you get used to exactly the same twin you'll use for your ME-IR) where it is advisable to stick with the one single school; on the other hand, the PPL and hour building in particular (including your NR, IR(R) etc. if desired) can be done wherever you wish. If distance learning especially, the ATPL theory course will most likely have to be done with a separate school.

I am led to believe it was only Flybe who have had this as a prerequisite for modular candidates from a while back, though it appears to have evolved into a rule of thumb for modular guys since.

It is probably a good way of going about your training anyway.

That's brilliant advice, thank you :)

Guys, there are two things you need to land a job: 1) a license 2) to get yourself sat in front of the interviewer. If you can manage that, no one is going to care what your average exam score was, or how many schools you went to. At that point they're looking to see if you'll fit in. Getting a license is the easy bit, figuring out 2) is the tricky bit. Other than that, to save a bit of cash don't bother getting an MEP rating.

Yes, good point regarding the MEP rating;

When working towards gaining the 'frozen' ATPL, one only needs to complete the training but not necessarily sit the 1hr skills test, which will save you several hundred £s.

Unless of course, you wish to fly such machines commercially or the thought of spending £450ph to hire a twin for personal use is your cup of tea. .

rudestuff

But what if your CV gets chucked in the bin before you even get a chance to sit in front of that interviewer, due to not meeting some petty requirements stated in the job advert for certain ATPL pass rates or training at a certain (number of) school(s) etc.?

That's why it's the hard part. You need to think outside the box. Often petty requirements are there to whittle thousands down to hundreds, so you have to find a way around the system. I've seen pilots asked by HR if they know anyone looking for a job - even though there is a huge pile of CVs on the desk. Knowing someone on the inside is the key, so get to know people. If they like you, you're in. Network.

Hi all,

I'm currently studying for my PPL locally. However I have my eyes set further down the runway. I've mapped together a loose training plan and it would be wonderful if I could get some feedback?

PPL+NR (local) 6,000.
Hour Build- 6,000.
ATPL Theory- BGS 4,500
CPL/ME/IR- Diamond Flight Academy 25,000
MCC/JOC - ? (budgeting approx 9,000?)

Total training cost touching 50,500 in total including exam fees and maintenance.

Training at the above schools would open doors to the Wings Alliance APC. I was also told that L3 are actively placing their AQC students with airlines such as easyjet and Wizz.

Any thoughts?

Your location looks to be cheaper than mine for sure! From being in the same boat looking further down the line I spent awhile looking into all this so heres my experience so far.

PPL costs can vary depending on an upfront payment for the entire cost vs pay as you fly. For example if I paid upfront for mine it would've been £8,300 at my chosen school for everything incl first exam attempts and so on. Pay as you go I've been advised to budget about 500 more incl books and misc bits and pieces like maps, maybe a headset,

NR - Ball park figure I've found is £1000

Hour Building - can vary massively depending what you're learning on / what you'll hour build with and if you hire from a club, buy a share and so on which is something I've just made a post about actually for myself using a club A/C for around 85/90hrs £8,000 roughly.

ATPL Theory - I plan on doing this distance learning if possible which comes in at around £2,000 BGS Via Bartolini Air.

CPL/IR/MEP - Now this is the tricky one, the IR alone can cost close to the amount for all 3 depending where you go to. From what I've looked at (wings alliance calculator). I hadn't heard of Diamond Flight Academy to be honest prior to reading your post. I plan on doing the CPL/IR/ME at Bartolini Air in Poland. at present its £15990 with the current exchange rate adding on around 1000 or so for accommodation, flight and incidentals like food

MCC/JOC - I haven't looked too much into this to be honest but from a quick search around 2400 up to 9000 at CTC

I have friends who have been modular and integrated both now with airlines incl the Qatar MPL via L3 and Thomson via modular. I had the opportunity to attempt to get a place on the EASYJET MPL but decided this was the better course of action.

Just as a side note and to be taken with a pinch of salt a friend of a friend who recently finished up a whitetail program at CTC has been excluded from applying to easy jet and wizz whilst there MPL/ATPL programs are open, despite being 'sold the hold pool dream' from day 1. I believe he interviewed at jet2 with no luck and is now considering freight / biz jet options. So I personally wouldn't spend a vast amount more just to be placed in a hold pool with a lot of other people and going down the pecking order over each subsequent month when the same can be achieved for less but thats just me.

If you do the CPL/IR/ME at Bartolini you get placed in their hold pool for Adria thus making an expensive AQC obsolete (in my opinion) another option which is something I've done myself is get a job with an airline in some capacity to get a foot in the door as it were. All in all if everything goes to plan my overall costs should be around £40,000 give or take £5,000

Hope this can help!

Looking for thoughts and advice on the following options I am considering:

EasyJet MPL - £109k - massive loan

Modular
PPL - £8,320 - Stapleford
NR - £950 - Stapleford
Hour Building - £11,000 - Stapleford
ATPL exams - £4,500 - BGS
CPL/ME/IR - £23,000 - Diamond
MCC/JOC - £9,000 - Wings Alliance/L3

Peripherals plus exams fees etc - £1,000

Total - £56,770

All with Bartolini
PPL - £7,900
NR - £1,025
Hour Building - £11,000
ATPL exams - £17,000
CPL/ME/IR - £9,000

Peripherals plus exams fees etc - £1,000
Accommodation - £4,000
Living Expenses - £3,000

MCC/JOC - £9,000

Total - £63,925

I am inclined to go with Bartolini as it is an all in one course, but am interested in people’s thoughts. Also I might be slightly overstating some of the costs, but that’s on the basis it’s prudent to budget like that.

The first modular route looks good to me (don't want to put all your eggs in one basket like in the second route - might as well do integrated I'd say).

And regarding the Easy loan - unless you are able to fund a significant amount out of your pocket I would not recommending taking out such a big loan, especially with no guarantees at the end.

FAA PPL 40 hours (includes night rating) one month - £5000
45 hours hour building, 2 weeks - £2500
40 hours IR training, one month - £5100
45 hours hour building, 2 weeks (to include 35 hours IFR) - £2500
Flights - £500
3 months accommodation and car hire £3000 (you would pay for meals anyway)
Visa/flight tests - £1000 US COST: £19,600
=======================
Atpl distance learning course - CATS - £1500
Exams. - £1000
=======================
EASA PPL - £1000 (to hang your CBIR on because you want to do that first)
MEP training (you don’t need to take the test) - £3000
CBIR (10 hours multi) - £6000
CPL (15 hours Arrow) - £4000 UK COST: £16,500

Total spend: £36,100 plus your choice of MCC

rudestuff, is that with particular place/school in the US in mind or more just ballpark figures that I can aim for?

Those were actual figures from flying academy (one of the first ones that cane up in Google) - I converted to GBP and rounded up. Hour building rates from fast time building. There's no point converting a CPL, but a CBIR will save a fortune.

Been doing a lot of reading on the forums over the last 2 years regarding ATPL ground school and Modular vs Integrated. Myself like many others can't fathom paying upwards of 100k when people who pay half of that figure end up in the same job. I have applied to integrated schemes run by OAA, FTEJ etc. I even got to the last stage of one with Flybe for the MPL course. When I look back, I am glad things worked out the way they did.

The best small bit of advice I can give as someone who has finished his planning to go ahead with modular training and has enrolled on ATPL ground school is this. Microsoft Excel. Create a master spread sheet and spend hours if not days looking online for training providers and match it up with accommodation, materials, flights, living cost and put it all into a easy to look at spreadsheet format etc. It gives you options and can always be edited or updated. Time is your friend when you are not already in debt. get yourself inspired for the journey. I now have a plan that if all goes well may end in a job for roughly 67K. Not the cheapest figure but it does account for a potential job that I have a good chance of getting an interview for should my flying abilities be at the best standard they can be and my exams all good passes.

Incase anyone was wondering what mines kinda looks like, I shall put most of it below.


CAA Class One Medical
£450-£500

(I already hold a Class 2 for my PPL and have no health issues to date)


ATPL exams -CAPT Ground School Course(Inc exams, equipment)
£2600

(It's a distance learning course but I luckily have a CAA exam centre 5 mins from my house and the classroom learning is also done 5 mins from my home)

Hour Building - Fly in Spain (75h PIC flying inc flights&accom)
£11000

(not the cheapest option but it's in european airspace which my PPL covers and provides good flying weather and a shorter time scale for completion)

ME/IR/CPL - Diamond Flight Academy (inc flights and accommodation)
£23189

(This school looks really impressive. The Instructors, accommodation and the aircraft all get great reviews and hype. Definitely worth looking into. I was sold at the word DA42NG and someone else online saying some of the instructors worked for Diamond designing the aircraft and have invaluable tips and knowledge.)


MCC/JOC - Simtech, Dublin
£4026 (Inc accommodation/flights)

(anyone wanting to go Ryanair should look this school up. A lot of placements with FR and it's in Dublin... No need to say any more) -


Ryanair Type Rating Scheme
£26k (converted from price in euros)

(I actually happen to currently work for FR so having friends and colleagues where I want to be is something I am very fortunate to have. Anyone who is 18+ and looking to become an airline pilot should look for seasonal work on check-in desks at your local international airport. Best move I ever did at 18 and it sure beats working on a shop floor when you can be gaining crucial airline ground experience which proves invaluable for interviews and CV's I have been told by numerous interviewers and pilots.)

Finally, Good luck Guys and Gals on the same boat as me! Wish everyone the best of luck with training :)

GAPilot261087, looks like a nice breakdown. I would budget around 35k GBP for the type rating though. I know a few people who have had to spend around €40k for it due to accommodation etc.

May I know in which airplane you planned the 11K for the time building? Around 165€/hour including accomodation seems a really good price.

Thanks and good luck! :ok:

I would have to agree. 26k is just for the course. Depending on where you do the TR and time scale, accommodation may be pricey in some places. I have a few friends who did it in CAE Amsterdam say to budget extra. There is more miscellaneous costs involved with insurance, uniform etc but I think if you have successfully gained a job then that is definetly less of a worry.

I have planned for the C150. I suppose it comes down to availability in the end though doesn't it. I normally fly PA28s in the UK but that is to go with friends and family. 75hrs on a C150 comes up at €8475 and then when you take into account landing fees and accommodation it does add up especially as its 75 landings if not more at around €15-20! Then there is accommodation and flights to and from Jerez. I think the planning of all the flying training is just important as the training itself.

Good luck to you also my friend! :)

Good price?! There's no reason to pay more than €100 an hour for hourbuilding.

I agree with rudestuff here, if you're willing to go abroad to hour build then the US would be much more economical.

I have been very tempted with the alternative cheap USA option and have numerous quotes for the same hours that are indeed cheaper per flying hour however, there is a few things that make me more inclined to do it in Spain.

Spains airspace is pretty simple from what I've checked and has lots of similarities to the UK. It also works with skydemon to make life a bit easier but I suppose you can get forelight for the US..
The USA does also require learning a whole bunch of new procedures both flying and RT. It probably would be manageable to learn but what I have found is once you add up the cost of flights to and from, accommodation, renting a car, spending money for food and fuel (depending on dry or wet lease), it works out very similar to doing it in Spain.

I also must admit that I love going on holiday to Spain so it kinda gives the best of both for me!

i agree but as rudestuff said earlier if you go to the states you can also save money in the long run by doing faa add on's to your current license, where it permits, again it comes down to money and time, i may look at states within the next few months or just go to spain or neighbouring states etc

It's certainly a good option if you are really wanting to budget and experience the US. I'd love to do some flying in the US at some point but personally, I would't consider doing more than hour building in the US and some multi engine time at most. I looked at doing the conversions route before and asked various line captains and even a TRI/E about it. I was basically told to stick with doing it in Europe under EASA. Apparently it is easy to tell in the sim if someone has learned IR in the USA due to certain traits. Not really sure what the errors might be but I took their word for it as I trust there opinions.

But then again, this may just be the case with certain trainees. Given that Rudestuff is an airline pilot who has been there and done it, I am sure doing a CBIR and everything works perfectly fine. There is obviously not just one correct way to do things. Personal preference really. I am gonna stick to doing my flying training in Europe if I can :)!

Advice about training
 

Hello everyone,

First I'm sorry if my message is a little bit too personal, but I really need some advice since I'm about to choose my path for getting my EASA ATPL.

I'm a cabin crew working for Emirates (so based in Dubai) and I was planning to start this year a training at Superior Air (in Greece) while continuing to fly as cabin crew so i could pay my training.
Then i looked into Air France who just started again their cadet training and it looked amazing for me however i would need to have the ATPL theory to apply for this job.
So i checked for a school in UK to get my ATPL but realized I needed to get the PPL first before going for ATPL.

So my question is : Should i go for the full package with superior air and take 1,5 / 2 years but without flying experience, and then look for a company like Ryan Air etc ,
or should I do it step by step with first the PPL, then ATPL theory and try my luck with Air France cadets after that ?

-Any other suggestions ?

Sorry again but my mind is going everywhere now and I'm trying to get some opinions outside of my EK colleagues .

Cheers !

Tourz,

IMO, you have to really ask yourself what you want in terms of training location, can you keep your job or not and can you afford not to work, price point and chances of success, passing all training and getting a job which is the tricky bit and harder than it sounds. In my case, I am doing the learning all modular. I already hold a PPL and work for Ryanair ground staff whilst doing it all and will be leaving my job to commit to the flying phase once my ATPL exams are out of the way. I posted what my route looks like and some reasoning for it a few posts ago.

For me, The PPL was a really important thing because I was able to gauge if I loved flying as much as I thought I did to justify committing 60k towards it as a career and also to find out if I was mentally suitable to fly safely whilst still enjoying it. I did it intensively over two months on an intensive PPL course at Tayside Aviation in Scotland. I did it this way for the simple reason so that I could test my ability to fly all the time whilst learning and doing the ground exams etc. It went quick and was a challenge some days but it was as close to line flying as I could get without being on an intensive integrated ATPL course and 100k later... I proved to myself I was mentally and physically capable of flying every day and it gave me real confidence. I would really recommend gaining a PPL anyways because it's yours for life and you can really enjoy it like many professional pilots do on weekends and other days. General Aviation flying is so fun!

Keep looking at training options however. Don't put pressure on yourself to make a quick decision because thats how you end up in a bad situation with a lot of money at stake. I also suggest you maybe visit a few more flight schools you like the look of and discuss finance, training plan, success stories and compare them to what you want. I actually went to a pilot careers live event in London that is hosted every year 2 or 3 times but they also do them in different locations where all the big schools and others you maybe haven't found yet will attend and speak to you in person.

If you are Cabin Crew, Speak to some younger first officers within EK who are likely to have been in your shoes not long ago and they can provide some insight. I still to this day speak to pilots through my work and get lots of good advice and recommendations from them. I am also pretty sure emirates has a training school now in the UAE so even look internally within them.

I am doing my ATPLs just now and I can tell you straight up that you will get a shock when you start to see how much work is involved. Not even PPL exams and learning can prepare you for the amount of volume that you must learn. People don't lie when they say it's challenging haha. I however have spaced mine out over a year and do not have to worry about integrated timescales to complete them. Some big airlines want 90% grade average on them from candidates applying for jobs and some airline on the other hand don't bother as long as you passed them all.

Lastly, I wish you good luck in your decision and wish you every success!

Hello GAPilot261087,

Thanks for all these details that's nice of you !

Actually I think my path will have to look like yours , since I can't afford the training if I stop working, and my job gives me the chance to visit a school in Europe quite often I feel it's the best way.
I also foolow you on the fact that starting with my PPL will also help me because I will get the chance to fly before starting the heavy part that is the ATPL.

"I however have spaced mine out over a year and do not have to worry about integrated timescales to complete them"
I think from the moment you start your first exam you still have to respect a certain timeframe like 18 months for completing everything right ?

And if I follow this way as well (PPL ---> ATPL theory) there wont be any flying with that, isn't it better to be able to fly at the same time ?

Thanks again for your nice reply

The 18 month timescale begins at the end of the sitting of the first exam I believe. You can however take as long as you like to learn the material before your first exams as an enrolled modular ATPL student. An integrated school does it over 6 months full time and usually takes 2 sittings which is a lot of knowledge and exams to do in that time period. It does often work but it’s not feasible if like me you want to work and learn.

Well not necessarily, I am still flying whilst learning my ATPL exams. Once you have your PPL, you can start to hour build to the 150h total time requirement and 100 of those hours must be Pilot in Command which is the crucial part. You must have 45 hours total time to do a PPL skills test so that’s nearly 50 hours straight away that also gives you with a licence to go flying when you want and nearly 50 hours off your goal of 150h to start the advanced training. I have a local flying club that I can go do 2 hours flying on a day off from studying/work for example. The great thing about modular training is there is no set way or method for everyone. You can do whatever suits you in terms of how you learn and progress.

By the time I finish the exams, I will probably need to go to somewhere like Spain for 2 weeks to do 50-60 hours flying to get my hours up to requirements to start the ME/IR/CPL training straight away. this is the hour building stage you hear people talking about but like I say, there is nothing to stop you doing it before your exams are complete if you have the licence to do so.