ICAO IR to JAA IR - sensible idea?
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ICAO IR to JAA IR - sensible idea?
I have read many topics regarding this new and quite attractive way of reducing the cost of the JAA IR.
I would really like to know the more of the pros BUT MAINLY the cons of this method because at one point it appealed to me, but then another time I thought...would the airlines really ask potential pilots why they converted? And is there a simple way out to answer that?
Because presumably you would be short-cutting the whole JAA system??
Any opinions...
I would really like to know the more of the pros BUT MAINLY the cons of this method because at one point it appealed to me, but then another time I thought...would the airlines really ask potential pilots why they converted? And is there a simple way out to answer that?
Because presumably you would be short-cutting the whole JAA system??
Any opinions...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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It's a long way off for me (probably 18 months or so), but this is the route I will most likely take.
I don't view it as "short-cutting the whole JAA system", because you still need to take a flight test with a JAA examiner, to exactly the same standards as if you'd done the full JAA IR course. In fact, you will probably end up with more hours of instrument instruction, from a wider range of instructors, and in a wider range of environments, than if you did the standard course.
As for being asked why you chose this route, simply answer with the truth. I don't know what that is for. It might be money, or convenience, or simply because you'd never flown in <insert your favourite ICAO country here> so thought you'd go there to get an IR. For me, it will be because I will have trouble getting the time off work to do the (very long) JAR course, and I don't want to relegate such an important part of my training to weekends. Far more convenient to do an IMC rating first (which I don't mind doing at weekends). The IMC hours will reduce the time I need to get an FAA IR, so getting the boss to give me time off for that won't be a problem. And then, 6 months later, I will take another break from work to do the (minimum of) 15 hours conversion and the JAR test. I will be practicing my instrument flying on a regular basis as soon as the CAA send me my updated license with my IMC rating on it, so my total instrument time will be far higher than someone who has followed the standard route - but the main advantage is that it fits in with my current lifestyle. I can't see why that would be a problem for any potential employers.
As for the cons, there is only one I can think of. Every JAR state must recognise a JAR IR if you did the full JAR course. However, if you convert from a non-JAR IR, states other than that which issued the conversion are not obliged to recognise the conversion. So it might be that (for example) the French CAA will refuse to recognise your IR, which would rule out getting a job with a French airline. I haven't heard any real-life stories of anyone who has had a converted IR either recognised or not recognised, but since my French isn't good enough to work for a French airline anyway I'm not too bothered.
FFF
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I don't view it as "short-cutting the whole JAA system", because you still need to take a flight test with a JAA examiner, to exactly the same standards as if you'd done the full JAA IR course. In fact, you will probably end up with more hours of instrument instruction, from a wider range of instructors, and in a wider range of environments, than if you did the standard course.
As for being asked why you chose this route, simply answer with the truth. I don't know what that is for. It might be money, or convenience, or simply because you'd never flown in <insert your favourite ICAO country here> so thought you'd go there to get an IR. For me, it will be because I will have trouble getting the time off work to do the (very long) JAR course, and I don't want to relegate such an important part of my training to weekends. Far more convenient to do an IMC rating first (which I don't mind doing at weekends). The IMC hours will reduce the time I need to get an FAA IR, so getting the boss to give me time off for that won't be a problem. And then, 6 months later, I will take another break from work to do the (minimum of) 15 hours conversion and the JAR test. I will be practicing my instrument flying on a regular basis as soon as the CAA send me my updated license with my IMC rating on it, so my total instrument time will be far higher than someone who has followed the standard route - but the main advantage is that it fits in with my current lifestyle. I can't see why that would be a problem for any potential employers.
As for the cons, there is only one I can think of. Every JAR state must recognise a JAR IR if you did the full JAR course. However, if you convert from a non-JAR IR, states other than that which issued the conversion are not obliged to recognise the conversion. So it might be that (for example) the French CAA will refuse to recognise your IR, which would rule out getting a job with a French airline. I haven't heard any real-life stories of anyone who has had a converted IR either recognised or not recognised, but since my French isn't good enough to work for a French airline anyway I'm not too bothered.
FFF
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Interesting!
I am in the same boat as you FFF in that I hold an FAA IR which at some point I am intending to get converted into a JAA.
If you have done a recognised JAA conversion course, sat the exams and the flight test and got the piece of paper - can they deny the right to apply? If so on what grounds? Would be interesting to see the first person to challenge this in the courts if the French (or anyone else), did decide not to recognise it.
I am in the same boat as you FFF in that I hold an FAA IR which at some point I am intending to get converted into a JAA.
If you have done a recognised JAA conversion course, sat the exams and the flight test and got the piece of paper - can they deny the right to apply? If so on what grounds? Would be interesting to see the first person to challenge this in the courts if the French (or anyone else), did decide not to recognise it.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Interestingly, I've been looking for the reference for this, and I can't find it anywhere, either in the JARs, or in LASORS. So it's possible that the rules have been changed recently, and a converted IR is accepted in the same way as any other JAR IR now? Either that or I'm not looking hard enough.
FFF
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FFF
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Look into the course type definition. If this conversion is not an approved course it may be more difficult to get a job with some companies. You will be in the same position as the old CAA self-improvers, same licence but by a non-approved course.
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Im in the process of converting my FAA IR to JAA IR, Ive done the Commercial skills test and ATPL subjects, so all thats left is the 15 hour course of which 10 hours can be in an FNPT 2 sim.
Im doing it at a school in Exeter where ther are a few blokes in the same position.
No one seems hassled that they're in a worse position because of the route they took to getting their IR, in the end we have all got to take the same test.
Im doing it at a school in Exeter where ther are a few blokes in the same position.
No one seems hassled that they're in a worse position because of the route they took to getting their IR, in the end we have all got to take the same test.
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I also have an FAA IR. I have yet to jump on the JAR bus. It is worth noting that the FAA system is as good as if not better than its European equivalent in terms of efficiency and functionality.
I personally am about to do the FAA Comm. This is essential for me since I need to fly N-reg aircraft. However, these are short term prospects and I will have to do JAR if iI am to get a reasonable position in the UK.
I hope there won't be any major problems with doing this, but as ever, politics plays a big part in aviation.
Cheers.
I personally am about to do the FAA Comm. This is essential for me since I need to fly N-reg aircraft. However, these are short term prospects and I will have to do JAR if iI am to get a reasonable position in the UK.
I hope there won't be any major problems with doing this, but as ever, politics plays a big part in aviation.
Cheers.
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Make sure you go to a good US school as I have converted FAA pilots who were taught badly and then it takes a lot of time and money to get up to standard. But in principle I see no problem in converting and you may save a lot of money.
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You may be right, Speedbird, but I would recommend to anyone to check this with the CAA before commiting themselves to this route. Companies that insist on approved courses to weed out old CAA self-improvers (despite the licence being the same!) may make the distinction if it is not approved.
I agree with African Drunk, having done some training in the US it can be very good, can be very lax. Be careful!
I agree with African Drunk, having done some training in the US it can be very good, can be very lax. Be careful!
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ICAO IR
Doing the ICAO (new zealand) CPL/MEIR conversion is my plan - starting the course in january.
I hear that it can be easier (note, not easy) to convert from Oz/NZ/SA traning than from FAA,
as these countries have similar standards of training to the UK.
It will still be a load of hassle, but I will come out with more hours for my money, and some interesting and
valuable flying experience. Good luck whatever route you choose !
divorcingjack
I hear that it can be easier (note, not easy) to convert from Oz/NZ/SA traning than from FAA,
as these countries have similar standards of training to the UK.
It will still be a load of hassle, but I will come out with more hours for my money, and some interesting and
valuable flying experience. Good luck whatever route you choose !
divorcingjack
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ICAO IR to JAA IR - sensible idea?
I have thought about this route, and have concluded that it is probably not a sensible idea.
Why go through all the hassle of 2 CPL tests, 15hrs extra IR training minimum, 2 IR tests, theory exams and medical in 2 countries, and all the paperwork and fuss of getting your licence from 2 aviation authorities......
.....when you could do a JAA IR in Europe, with no conversion necessary.
Czech Rep & Spain are 2 examples in which an IR is way cheaper than in the UK (although admittedly a bit more than the states).
.....or alternatively when you can do the JAA CPL, multi-eng, and part of the JAA IR all in Florida, and complete the JAA IR in the UK.
When these 2 routes exist, I can't see an advantage in converting an ICAO CPL/IR to JAA.
I haven't costed it all out, but I very much doubt it would be cheaper to get an ICAO CPL/IR + JAA conversion.
Am I missing something?
IH
Why go through all the hassle of 2 CPL tests, 15hrs extra IR training minimum, 2 IR tests, theory exams and medical in 2 countries, and all the paperwork and fuss of getting your licence from 2 aviation authorities......
.....when you could do a JAA IR in Europe, with no conversion necessary.
Czech Rep & Spain are 2 examples in which an IR is way cheaper than in the UK (although admittedly a bit more than the states).
.....or alternatively when you can do the JAA CPL, multi-eng, and part of the JAA IR all in Florida, and complete the JAA IR in the UK.
When these 2 routes exist, I can't see an advantage in converting an ICAO CPL/IR to JAA.
I haven't costed it all out, but I very much doubt it would be cheaper to get an ICAO CPL/IR + JAA conversion.
Am I missing something?
IH
Last edited by Island Hopper; 26th May 2003 at 18:15.
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Yes I think you are right "Island Hopper". I believe that if one adds up all the extra costs such as accomodation in the ICAO Country, flights and various other factors the total cost will be in the same region as a normal JAA Full time IR.
I would have thought all the paperwork involved with the conversion would be a real hassle to.
I would have thought all the paperwork involved with the conversion would be a real hassle to.
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I think that FFF is bang on,
I went out to SA having completed my JAA exams and took the SA CPL exams and came home with a CPL multi IR.
All I had to do back home in UK was 15 hrs (you can do 10 in a FNPT2 or 5 in lesser appproved model) take the 170a and then test.
This conversion cse from ICAO to JAR is in the region of £4.5k (approaches and tests included)
Anyone who thinks that this doesnt add up to financial sense is barking. My reasoning is simple. If you have a JAR-CPL already this is another matter but if you have just finished the exams and hold a PPL. Then pin your ears back...
The exams in SA are far easier than the JAA ATPLs and all 8 will take two weeks revision and one week testing. The exams only cost £16 each.
Now to get the CPL Multi/IR in SA you need:-
200hrs total
100hrs PIC (counts twds total)
10hrs Night (counts twds total)
40hrs Instr (20hrs can be sim) (counts twds total)
50hrs X Country (counts twds total)
6hrs MEP (counts twds total)
So if you have got a JAR- PPL you will already have 45hrs(assuming you are not a QSP, if you are PM me)
So you need to fly 155hrs in country. If you do say 100 in PA28 then 20 in PA28R, then 20 in SIM and finally 15 in multi the job is done.
PA-28 £40 per hour (total 4000)
PA-28R £50 per hour (total 1000)
Twin £110 per hour (total 1650)
Sim £20 per hour (total 400)
Exams £16 each (total 128)
Thats just over 7k for the flying. But here come the pitfalls.
You can validate your JAR-PPL to go off and hour build but you cannot add ratings to a validation and also you cannot carry pax. So if you go with a mate or spouse they are earth bound.
If on the other hand you take the SA PPL exams (this will take at least 4 hrs if you can speak english, multi guess on a PC, the same validation test 1.5hrs nav and 1.5hrs GF can be used to issue you a SA PPL at the grand cost of 15 quid. If no requirement to carry pax and you have a night rating on your JAR- PPL then no need to go this route (YOU MUST BE ABLE TO FLY 10hrs PIC AT NIGHT) so if you do not have a night rating you will have to get a SA PPL to be able to go solo at night in SA reg ac.
You can then add night rating etc to your SA - PPL.
You then sit the CPL/IR exams (3-4weeks dependant on how recently you took ATPLs and then bobs your uncle. If you drop a subject no worries you can do the requirements in any order. i.e. flight test and then exams if necessary and you can resit whilst you are flying or have time exams are every week in SA!!
The bonuses are this. I have already explained the IR bit but the extra one is that as the holder of a foreign acceptable professional licence you do not need to undertake the CPL module all you need to do is 170a and test.
So you now have saved yourself the whole JAR CPL module and the IR trg i.e. 25hr CPL mod + 50/55hr IFR
So finally the balance. In the UK avg IR is 10k and CPL 4.5k this is 14.5k If you go to SA 7k plus the 4.5k IR conversion and 1k CPL conversion comes to 11.5k.
So you've saved only 3k BUT the cost of living in SA is revoltingly cheap you get to spend 3 months in fairly beautiful surrounds.
I went with better half who is not exactly into roughing it and so spent £20per night on luxury accom (swimming pool, stables, horses included, armed guards, elecrtic fences, knobs and whistles) you could actually rent a 3 bed semi for half that. You can eat likea King/Queen for around £5 per day and if even if you hire a car you would be hard pushed to spend the extra.
So are you better off if you spend the same amount of cash. Well I got to see Cape Town, Durban, Jo-Burg, Pretoria and went on Safari for a once in a leftime trip and cos we flew ourselves everywhere we weren't paying for car hire. The fact is if you are in UK unless you live very near a school/airfield you will still ahve to pay accomodation and food well you eat wherever you are in the world.
So it may not be much cheaper but it is cheaper and its more experience than someone else in the CV pile and further there are jobs in the rest of Africa available to you as well as here when it comes to looking for that first rung on the ladder.
The ac are not as well equipped as here avionics wise they think that HSIs should be reserved for Space Shuttles but what you will find is that if you can do it with poor mans kit it's easier when you get back here.
PM if you want any specific info.
VT
I went out to SA having completed my JAA exams and took the SA CPL exams and came home with a CPL multi IR.
All I had to do back home in UK was 15 hrs (you can do 10 in a FNPT2 or 5 in lesser appproved model) take the 170a and then test.
This conversion cse from ICAO to JAR is in the region of £4.5k (approaches and tests included)
Anyone who thinks that this doesnt add up to financial sense is barking. My reasoning is simple. If you have a JAR-CPL already this is another matter but if you have just finished the exams and hold a PPL. Then pin your ears back...
The exams in SA are far easier than the JAA ATPLs and all 8 will take two weeks revision and one week testing. The exams only cost £16 each.
Now to get the CPL Multi/IR in SA you need:-
200hrs total
100hrs PIC (counts twds total)
10hrs Night (counts twds total)
40hrs Instr (20hrs can be sim) (counts twds total)
50hrs X Country (counts twds total)
6hrs MEP (counts twds total)
So if you have got a JAR- PPL you will already have 45hrs(assuming you are not a QSP, if you are PM me)
So you need to fly 155hrs in country. If you do say 100 in PA28 then 20 in PA28R, then 20 in SIM and finally 15 in multi the job is done.
PA-28 £40 per hour (total 4000)
PA-28R £50 per hour (total 1000)
Twin £110 per hour (total 1650)
Sim £20 per hour (total 400)
Exams £16 each (total 128)
Thats just over 7k for the flying. But here come the pitfalls.
You can validate your JAR-PPL to go off and hour build but you cannot add ratings to a validation and also you cannot carry pax. So if you go with a mate or spouse they are earth bound.
If on the other hand you take the SA PPL exams (this will take at least 4 hrs if you can speak english, multi guess on a PC, the same validation test 1.5hrs nav and 1.5hrs GF can be used to issue you a SA PPL at the grand cost of 15 quid. If no requirement to carry pax and you have a night rating on your JAR- PPL then no need to go this route (YOU MUST BE ABLE TO FLY 10hrs PIC AT NIGHT) so if you do not have a night rating you will have to get a SA PPL to be able to go solo at night in SA reg ac.
You can then add night rating etc to your SA - PPL.
You then sit the CPL/IR exams (3-4weeks dependant on how recently you took ATPLs and then bobs your uncle. If you drop a subject no worries you can do the requirements in any order. i.e. flight test and then exams if necessary and you can resit whilst you are flying or have time exams are every week in SA!!
The bonuses are this. I have already explained the IR bit but the extra one is that as the holder of a foreign acceptable professional licence you do not need to undertake the CPL module all you need to do is 170a and test.
So you now have saved yourself the whole JAR CPL module and the IR trg i.e. 25hr CPL mod + 50/55hr IFR
So finally the balance. In the UK avg IR is 10k and CPL 4.5k this is 14.5k If you go to SA 7k plus the 4.5k IR conversion and 1k CPL conversion comes to 11.5k.
So you've saved only 3k BUT the cost of living in SA is revoltingly cheap you get to spend 3 months in fairly beautiful surrounds.
I went with better half who is not exactly into roughing it and so spent £20per night on luxury accom (swimming pool, stables, horses included, armed guards, elecrtic fences, knobs and whistles) you could actually rent a 3 bed semi for half that. You can eat likea King/Queen for around £5 per day and if even if you hire a car you would be hard pushed to spend the extra.
So are you better off if you spend the same amount of cash. Well I got to see Cape Town, Durban, Jo-Burg, Pretoria and went on Safari for a once in a leftime trip and cos we flew ourselves everywhere we weren't paying for car hire. The fact is if you are in UK unless you live very near a school/airfield you will still ahve to pay accomodation and food well you eat wherever you are in the world.
So it may not be much cheaper but it is cheaper and its more experience than someone else in the CV pile and further there are jobs in the rest of Africa available to you as well as here when it comes to looking for that first rung on the ladder.
The ac are not as well equipped as here avionics wise they think that HSIs should be reserved for Space Shuttles but what you will find is that if you can do it with poor mans kit it's easier when you get back here.
PM if you want any specific info.
VT
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 21st May 2003 at 09:55.
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How is that cheaper???
Well Vortex, thanks for that detailed post.
Now Cape Town would come much higher up on my list than, say Florida, but whilst I may well be 'barking' I simply do not see how your route is cheaper.
You quote 11.5k for a CPL/multi IR converted from SA to JAA, making a 3k saving (excluding flights, accomodation, food etc)
.....But you're comparing it to the UK.
I didn't say the JAA training in the UK would be the cheapest and least hassle - I was referring to JAA training abroad.
Random example of rough JAA costs abroad:
JAA CPL at EFT, Florida - $4750 = £3006
JAA Multi+IR at Aerofan, Spain - 8399 euros = £6268
Total = £9274 (at todays exchange rates)
(also excluding flights, food + accom, although Easyjet to Madrid is only ~£65rtn and BA/Virgin to Orlando is ~£350 rtn (although you can go tomorrow with Thomas Cook from Glasgow for £145 rtn!!, similar promotions from other UK airports in June))
...BA are charging over £550rtn to Cape Town
Obviously the £9274 doesn't include a pile of stuff, such as test fees, but then neither did your figure(?) so I believe it's a fair comparison, and shows that there is no cost benefit to an ICAO CPL/IR conversion.
Please prove me wrong, because as I said at the beginning.... Cape Town is my number 1 choice (ignoring costs)
IH
Now Cape Town would come much higher up on my list than, say Florida, but whilst I may well be 'barking' I simply do not see how your route is cheaper.
You quote 11.5k for a CPL/multi IR converted from SA to JAA, making a 3k saving (excluding flights, accomodation, food etc)
.....But you're comparing it to the UK.
I didn't say the JAA training in the UK would be the cheapest and least hassle - I was referring to JAA training abroad.
Random example of rough JAA costs abroad:
JAA CPL at EFT, Florida - $4750 = £3006
JAA Multi+IR at Aerofan, Spain - 8399 euros = £6268
Total = £9274 (at todays exchange rates)
(also excluding flights, food + accom, although Easyjet to Madrid is only ~£65rtn and BA/Virgin to Orlando is ~£350 rtn (although you can go tomorrow with Thomas Cook from Glasgow for £145 rtn!!, similar promotions from other UK airports in June))
...BA are charging over £550rtn to Cape Town
Obviously the £9274 doesn't include a pile of stuff, such as test fees, but then neither did your figure(?) so I believe it's a fair comparison, and shows that there is no cost benefit to an ICAO CPL/IR conversion.
Please prove me wrong, because as I said at the beginning.... Cape Town is my number 1 choice (ignoring costs)
IH
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If you get your Multi IR issued by Aerofan you will have completed the test on a Spanish Reg a/c and therfore have to have the country of issue changed to work for a UK airline. This will cost you a little more cash. I believe £165 per item.
You are correct to say that there is more hassle and orgainzation to have in going to SA but there is also more fun to be had than in the states (personality depenant)
Flights to SA can be found for £350 if you look at airlines other than BA. I went with Emirates for £380 admittedly this was via Dubai (but hey the duty free is worth the extra few hours)
As for test fees I did not mention them cos they are so small. The SA do a combined CPL Mulit IR test. It takes 2hrs and you have to pay the pricely sum of £85 for the test plus solo ac hire. So not quite the CAA £607(which of cse you have to pay when you convert your licence later)
As you have said I was under the impression that you were arguing the pros and cons of doing and ICAO licence conversion against straight into JAA in UK but that aside you do not seem to have noticed that my prices include 155hours of hour building!
This is fairly significant. Your prices only account for a CPL module and and IR course. If you start from PPL with 45 hours you will still need to build those hours somewhere. Your price of £9274 includes 50hr IR cse and 25 hrs CPL module. However under JAR you cannot start the CPL moidule until you have 150hrs. You can however add the IR to your PPL but will then need to do a 55hr IR which in turn leads to a 20hr CPL module. Either way you still need to get from 45hours to 150 hours so that is where the saving is.
Does this prove you wrong or have I missed something.
VT
You are correct to say that there is more hassle and orgainzation to have in going to SA but there is also more fun to be had than in the states (personality depenant)
Flights to SA can be found for £350 if you look at airlines other than BA. I went with Emirates for £380 admittedly this was via Dubai (but hey the duty free is worth the extra few hours)
As for test fees I did not mention them cos they are so small. The SA do a combined CPL Mulit IR test. It takes 2hrs and you have to pay the pricely sum of £85 for the test plus solo ac hire. So not quite the CAA £607(which of cse you have to pay when you convert your licence later)
As you have said I was under the impression that you were arguing the pros and cons of doing and ICAO licence conversion against straight into JAA in UK but that aside you do not seem to have noticed that my prices include 155hours of hour building!
This is fairly significant. Your prices only account for a CPL module and and IR course. If you start from PPL with 45 hours you will still need to build those hours somewhere. Your price of £9274 includes 50hr IR cse and 25 hrs CPL module. However under JAR you cannot start the CPL moidule until you have 150hrs. You can however add the IR to your PPL but will then need to do a 55hr IR which in turn leads to a 20hr CPL module. Either way you still need to get from 45hours to 150 hours so that is where the saving is.
Does this prove you wrong or have I missed something.
VT
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Now you've got me thinking!
Maybe I crossed SA and Canada out too soon!
Quite right - I didn't include the hours in my rough costing, because I didn't realise you had. However, I do need more hours before I can start the CPL, which does indeed seem to be where the saving can be made.
Are your prices current - how long since you did this?
Are your prices typical of most schools in SA, or did you pick a cheap one?
PA28 £40
Twin £110
One thing which does still put me off a bit is the idea of having to sit more theory exams. I know everyone says they're much easier than JAA exams, but I have heard more of those comments about the Canadian theory. I have heard that SA theory is pretty similar to JAA (infact I thought they also had 14 exams??).
Is just 2 weeks revision really all that is needed? I have finished the JAA stuff within the last few months, but found it pretty tough going. It would all be a bit of a disaster if I was out there struggling to pass the ground exams.
IH
Quite right - I didn't include the hours in my rough costing, because I didn't realise you had. However, I do need more hours before I can start the CPL, which does indeed seem to be where the saving can be made.
Are your prices current - how long since you did this?
Are your prices typical of most schools in SA, or did you pick a cheap one?
PA28 £40
Twin £110
One thing which does still put me off a bit is the idea of having to sit more theory exams. I know everyone says they're much easier than JAA exams, but I have heard more of those comments about the Canadian theory. I have heard that SA theory is pretty similar to JAA (infact I thought they also had 14 exams??).
Is just 2 weeks revision really all that is needed? I have finished the JAA stuff within the last few months, but found it pretty tough going. It would all be a bit of a disaster if I was out there struggling to pass the ground exams.
IH
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IH,
Ah ha the game is afoot. The prices are current I have just come back from SA 3 weeks ago. But to get each of the schools prices go to their websites. If you PM me I can send you contact details and recommendations.
The prices, like UK, are pretty standard across the country from the 5 or so schools I visited. I flew with 3 schools out there and little difference in price but quite a difference in instruction, aircraft and pre/post flight facilities.
I am no exam queen. I wouldnt say that I struggled with the JAA exams but I had to resit 2 of my 14.
The CPL exams are sat on a PC at the CAA in Pretoria and they are multi choice like ours but they only have 3 answers not 4 and there is no negative marking. There are definately only 8 exams for CPL/IR I know I've sat them.
They are :- Met, Flt Planning, Radio & Electronics (Radio NAV), Nav, Instruments, Air law and Procedures, Human Perf, and Ac Tech & Gen.
As for difficulty. I can assure you that they are far far easier than JAA in the volume required. The depth is simlilar but because they have a very defined two tier system of ATPL and CPL the exams are based soley at thinking that you will fly an ac less than 5700kg infact they are predicated on the King Air.
The one subject that gave me trouble and admittedly has got a significantly lower 1st time pass rate than any other was Nav. This quite simply because there are loads of complex nav plots to be done on a Lamberts which allow you to make multiple errors and thus waste precious time. Nav is one of 2 where there is some time pressure.
The other subjects were so much easier that you found yourself getting 95 or 100% after 30 mins of a 2 hour exam.
Met is local climate only, no global climatology, so mostly decodes and simple local effects. (Fohn, sea breeze, ana/kata, etc)
Air Law is combined with Ops Procs and focuses mostly on the Ops Procs side but there is no RVSM, RNPS, etc cos it is only local to SA.
Tech is called ATG for Aircraft Technical and General but is 95% piston based. Super and turbochargers come up and the niffnaff gear, hyds, and other systems but only in small quantities and normally in such a way that even if you don't know a guess will see you right.
Instruments is literally only the pressure instruments, no EFIS, EICAS, AMS,etc as this is in their ATPL syllabus!!!
Human Performance is mostly physiological not much of the pscychological effects.
Radio & Electronics focuses in great depth on Radar, ILS, VOR, DME, NDB, NDB, NDB oh and NDBs and pretty much ignores everything else. So if you understand the theory you will have little work to do there.
And finally Flt Planning is the same graphs but all based on the King Air instead of the 737. Hence much more simple and not only that you are allowed planning handheld computers (you must buy/borrow one even if you are a whizz wheel god) to do things like fuel, DA etc calcs as they give you no formula or reference in the CAP style book. This is the only other exam where there is some time pressure.
So they are honestly all in all much easier.
Can you revise for them in 2 weeks. Yes you honestly can but that means 10 - 12 hours a day for 14 days. If you want 1st time passes. If you can I'd reccomend going out there to revise for those two weeks rather than getting the books sent to UK because you will find that you may have questions and you need SA people to answer them.
I used a school which had a PC based practice system. This was quite simply the best thing that I did in the country. It was so similar in format, level and question that it made the exams far, far easier.
Want more, IM me?
Good luck, I hope you go it's a wonderful country.
VT
Ah ha the game is afoot. The prices are current I have just come back from SA 3 weeks ago. But to get each of the schools prices go to their websites. If you PM me I can send you contact details and recommendations.
The prices, like UK, are pretty standard across the country from the 5 or so schools I visited. I flew with 3 schools out there and little difference in price but quite a difference in instruction, aircraft and pre/post flight facilities.
I am no exam queen. I wouldnt say that I struggled with the JAA exams but I had to resit 2 of my 14.
The CPL exams are sat on a PC at the CAA in Pretoria and they are multi choice like ours but they only have 3 answers not 4 and there is no negative marking. There are definately only 8 exams for CPL/IR I know I've sat them.
They are :- Met, Flt Planning, Radio & Electronics (Radio NAV), Nav, Instruments, Air law and Procedures, Human Perf, and Ac Tech & Gen.
As for difficulty. I can assure you that they are far far easier than JAA in the volume required. The depth is simlilar but because they have a very defined two tier system of ATPL and CPL the exams are based soley at thinking that you will fly an ac less than 5700kg infact they are predicated on the King Air.
The one subject that gave me trouble and admittedly has got a significantly lower 1st time pass rate than any other was Nav. This quite simply because there are loads of complex nav plots to be done on a Lamberts which allow you to make multiple errors and thus waste precious time. Nav is one of 2 where there is some time pressure.
The other subjects were so much easier that you found yourself getting 95 or 100% after 30 mins of a 2 hour exam.
Met is local climate only, no global climatology, so mostly decodes and simple local effects. (Fohn, sea breeze, ana/kata, etc)
Air Law is combined with Ops Procs and focuses mostly on the Ops Procs side but there is no RVSM, RNPS, etc cos it is only local to SA.
Tech is called ATG for Aircraft Technical and General but is 95% piston based. Super and turbochargers come up and the niffnaff gear, hyds, and other systems but only in small quantities and normally in such a way that even if you don't know a guess will see you right.
Instruments is literally only the pressure instruments, no EFIS, EICAS, AMS,etc as this is in their ATPL syllabus!!!
Human Performance is mostly physiological not much of the pscychological effects.
Radio & Electronics focuses in great depth on Radar, ILS, VOR, DME, NDB, NDB, NDB oh and NDBs and pretty much ignores everything else. So if you understand the theory you will have little work to do there.
And finally Flt Planning is the same graphs but all based on the King Air instead of the 737. Hence much more simple and not only that you are allowed planning handheld computers (you must buy/borrow one even if you are a whizz wheel god) to do things like fuel, DA etc calcs as they give you no formula or reference in the CAP style book. This is the only other exam where there is some time pressure.
So they are honestly all in all much easier.
Can you revise for them in 2 weeks. Yes you honestly can but that means 10 - 12 hours a day for 14 days. If you want 1st time passes. If you can I'd reccomend going out there to revise for those two weeks rather than getting the books sent to UK because you will find that you may have questions and you need SA people to answer them.
I used a school which had a PC based practice system. This was quite simply the best thing that I did in the country. It was so similar in format, level and question that it made the exams far, far easier.
Want more, IM me?
Good luck, I hope you go it's a wonderful country.
VT
