BAE - incompetency uncovered
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: jerez
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BEagle and WW make good points about discipline and standards - these are the kind of things that apotential emplyer will look for. It is, after all, a job that requires high personal standards if you are to be a safe and efficient operator.
However, there are some people here on the staff side who look down their noses at the "little boys and girls" going through training. Some forget that they were in the same position once - others just have a bad attitude and like to feel superior. Some of the staff are excellent at working with the students - treating them as adults and thereofre getting the best from them. Some managers and administrators just seem to see the staff and students as an adminstrative burden that gets in the way of pushing all the paperwork around (BEagle - does that sound familiar?).
However, while we have good and bad on the staff side the same goes for the students. How do you deal with a multi engine student who only bothers to turn up to fly when a) he feels like it and b) is sober enough? We had one until recently.
I amazed at the high standards achieved by some of the people we teach - and I am also amazed at some who just can't be bothered (even if they are self sponsoring!). And to not put in any effort when a sponsor is picking up the bill is shameful!
Still, I reckon that you could say the same at any FTO/Military FTS so nothing changes.
However, there are some people here on the staff side who look down their noses at the "little boys and girls" going through training. Some forget that they were in the same position once - others just have a bad attitude and like to feel superior. Some of the staff are excellent at working with the students - treating them as adults and thereofre getting the best from them. Some managers and administrators just seem to see the staff and students as an adminstrative burden that gets in the way of pushing all the paperwork around (BEagle - does that sound familiar?).
However, while we have good and bad on the staff side the same goes for the students. How do you deal with a multi engine student who only bothers to turn up to fly when a) he feels like it and b) is sober enough? We had one until recently.
I amazed at the high standards achieved by some of the people we teach - and I am also amazed at some who just can't be bothered (even if they are self sponsoring!). And to not put in any effort when a sponsor is picking up the bill is shameful!
Still, I reckon that you could say the same at any FTO/Military FTS so nothing changes.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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WWW a response to your post.
The ground school at Jerez is mediocre!!! Rubbish. The ground school lecturers in my opinion are absolutely first class, the subject notes I agree are not fantastic but this has been realised and new notes are being written at this moment and some have even been distributed already. The only thing I could possibly fault it on is an occasional lack of visual aids, but even this is changing with the current CBT and there uses in some classes. Although I do not have first hand experience of another school I can only tell you about my experience here relating to ground school which has been overal a happy one. I agree that ground school is probably not the most entertaining part of the ab-initio course, but I think BAE do there best to make it as manageable as possible.
Secondly you say that a company canīt afford to pay for customer service. I think when people talk about customer service in realtion to flight training they do not expect employees of the FTO to kneel down and kiss there feet when they walk into a room. All people want is to be treated fairly, to be given honest information and spoken to on an equal level. That costs nothing and to say that an organisation canīt afford that illustrates to me that you missed the point in the post entirely.
Lastly could you just tell us how you find out that FTOīs only make one thousand pounds profit per student, I really canīt believe this is an accurate figure.
The ground school at Jerez is mediocre!!! Rubbish. The ground school lecturers in my opinion are absolutely first class, the subject notes I agree are not fantastic but this has been realised and new notes are being written at this moment and some have even been distributed already. The only thing I could possibly fault it on is an occasional lack of visual aids, but even this is changing with the current CBT and there uses in some classes. Although I do not have first hand experience of another school I can only tell you about my experience here relating to ground school which has been overal a happy one. I agree that ground school is probably not the most entertaining part of the ab-initio course, but I think BAE do there best to make it as manageable as possible.
Secondly you say that a company canīt afford to pay for customer service. I think when people talk about customer service in realtion to flight training they do not expect employees of the FTO to kneel down and kiss there feet when they walk into a room. All people want is to be treated fairly, to be given honest information and spoken to on an equal level. That costs nothing and to say that an organisation canīt afford that illustrates to me that you missed the point in the post entirely.
Lastly could you just tell us how you find out that FTOīs only make one thousand pounds profit per student, I really canīt believe this is an accurate figure.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Jerez
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Some good and true points raised by Want To Fly there. WWW - what are you going on about? If BAE are only making 1000pounds per student, they wouldnīt still be here!
Not only is Groundschool excellent, the Flying side, although short of instructors has some good quality staff at the moment and they are working damn hard to get students flying.
BAE Employee says that administration staff have no customer relations. UNTRUE! They are a fantastic bunch of people. There is one person who "is not being given enough money" to provide "customer relations!" Enough said.
Not only is Groundschool excellent, the Flying side, although short of instructors has some good quality staff at the moment and they are working damn hard to get students flying.
BAE Employee says that administration staff have no customer relations. UNTRUE! They are a fantastic bunch of people. There is one person who "is not being given enough money" to provide "customer relations!" Enough said.
Groundschool was mediocre when I was there. Not appalling, not great, just mediocre. I've seen lots of different groundschools and that is my opinion. OATS were clearly doing a better job last year and if you ever get a chance to have a look at the Bristol notes and CD ROM you'll see instantly how it could be done better...
I don't think anyone at Jerez would take offence at me saying that. There were problems with the leadership of Groundschool compounded by a geographical move, a near total change of staff and the introduction of JAA. I wouldn't have liked to tackle all that.
As for what a school makes per student profit then it ain't much. I used a grand as a very rough and ready low--figure-to-hand. Its not far off though.
If you look at some of the figures bandied about at the time of OATS sale you would start to realise the low profit margins in flight training. Prestwick made a loss for more years than it made a profit... I've heard the management say there that if they give 5 hours Senecca time free to a student then they make a loss on them...
Some parts of training make more money than others. MCC and JOC courses for example being very much more profitable than the flying training side of things.
Cheers,
WWW
I don't think anyone at Jerez would take offence at me saying that. There were problems with the leadership of Groundschool compounded by a geographical move, a near total change of staff and the introduction of JAA. I wouldn't have liked to tackle all that.
As for what a school makes per student profit then it ain't much. I used a grand as a very rough and ready low--figure-to-hand. Its not far off though.
If you look at some of the figures bandied about at the time of OATS sale you would start to realise the low profit margins in flight training. Prestwick made a loss for more years than it made a profit... I've heard the management say there that if they give 5 hours Senecca time free to a student then they make a loss on them...
Some parts of training make more money than others. MCC and JOC courses for example being very much more profitable than the flying training side of things.
Cheers,
WWW
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: commonwealth hq
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Dear boys and girls,
Most of you seem to have overlooked the fact that like it or not, customers (students or otherwise) are the people who pay your wages. Treat them with contempt and they bite - trust me, I know (some of them literally!!!).
Justified or not, they are entitled to whinge, and you are paid to deal with it. The airlines don't treat paying customers the same way the FTOs do (or if they do perhaps that is why they are all going bust!), so don't give me all this c**p about it is what the airlines expect because it is good for discipline. It is nothing but an excuse for people who aren't capable or willing to manage an operation to the required standard.
If FTOs were able to meet the standards BEagle wants to see in all students, there wouldn't be a poroblem to start with. Put your own houses in order first guys, then slag off the punters!
Most of you seem to have overlooked the fact that like it or not, customers (students or otherwise) are the people who pay your wages. Treat them with contempt and they bite - trust me, I know (some of them literally!!!).
Justified or not, they are entitled to whinge, and you are paid to deal with it. The airlines don't treat paying customers the same way the FTOs do (or if they do perhaps that is why they are all going bust!), so don't give me all this c**p about it is what the airlines expect because it is good for discipline. It is nothing but an excuse for people who aren't capable or willing to manage an operation to the required standard.
If FTOs were able to meet the standards BEagle wants to see in all students, there wouldn't be a poroblem to start with. Put your own houses in order first guys, then slag off the punters!
For this thread to progress anywhere I think we need tanible gripes.
Get specific chaps or else it just sounds like a general whine.
Which is fine.
WWW
Get specific chaps or else it just sounds like a general whine.
Which is fine.
WWW
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: A PC!
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BEagle - the website you are after is: www.baesystems.es
The weather is lovely -2nd November and it is actually HOT today, not just warm. Read it and weep.
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
The weather is lovely -2nd November and it is actually HOT today, not just warm. Read it and weep.
[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
TVM moggie - can't understand why there's no link from the BWoS main site!
Why would anyone ever bother with Kidlington when there's J-de-la-F available??
Salud y pesetas...
Why would anyone ever bother with Kidlington when there's J-de-la-F available??
Salud y pesetas...
Join Date: Dec 2000
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BEagle
You do talk some S**T!
I went to SFT for my Twin rating and the place was pants! lack of decent instruction, 3 week course draggggggged out to 6 weeks and crisis management from top to toe.
As for your views on the 'customer' you really do need to start believing that those deemed (by you) to be below your level are clever people with a VALID opinion!
How about the aviation schools admitting (for once) that they are to blame for all the added expense and delayed output that students suffer?
I can't speak about Jerez in particular, but it seems to be full of the same, sad old stories I was given at Bournemouth!
You do talk some S**T!
I went to SFT for my Twin rating and the place was pants! lack of decent instruction, 3 week course draggggggged out to 6 weeks and crisis management from top to toe.
As for your views on the 'customer' you really do need to start believing that those deemed (by you) to be below your level are clever people with a VALID opinion!
How about the aviation schools admitting (for once) that they are to blame for all the added expense and delayed output that students suffer?
I can't speak about Jerez in particular, but it seems to be full of the same, sad old stories I was given at Bournemouth!
P O'H - sorry to hear of your troubles. However, as far as I can recall, I have never made any comment about SFT, so am a little perplexed at the vitriol of your rhetoric. Nevertheless, best of luck with your future training.
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BEagle
What future training? Like you I'm a fully qualified pilot!
I wasn't insinuating that you did remark about SFT - it was in the other threads. I was merely observing your inappropriate remarks concerning trainees and your defence of companies that in general are well below par. For example, I was a military pilot with 2500 hours fast-jet when I attended SFT for my civil twin rating - the first thing the instructor tried to teach me in the air was LOOKOUT! The lack of awareness, structure and instructor ability in these organisations leaves much to be desired. This kind of corporate blundering is what concerns the originator of this forum and is a totally valid worry. Come on all you flying training units, get your act in order before insisting that your clients do the same!
What future training? Like you I'm a fully qualified pilot!
I wasn't insinuating that you did remark about SFT - it was in the other threads. I was merely observing your inappropriate remarks concerning trainees and your defence of companies that in general are well below par. For example, I was a military pilot with 2500 hours fast-jet when I attended SFT for my civil twin rating - the first thing the instructor tried to teach me in the air was LOOKOUT! The lack of awareness, structure and instructor ability in these organisations leaves much to be desired. This kind of corporate blundering is what concerns the originator of this forum and is a totally valid worry. Come on all you flying training units, get your act in order before insisting that your clients do the same!
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Much of the comment above seems to stem from a difference in expectaions.
Perhaps FTOs should produce a 'charter' for want of a better word that sets out EXACTLY what the student can expect from the FTO and also EXACTLY what the FTO expects from the student.
Done properly, (ie in consultation with the people who will have to deliver the promises) a document would go a long way to managing expectations.
Just a thought.
Perhaps FTOs should produce a 'charter' for want of a better word that sets out EXACTLY what the student can expect from the FTO and also EXACTLY what the FTO expects from the student.
Done properly, (ie in consultation with the people who will have to deliver the promises) a document would go a long way to managing expectations.
Just a thought.
