Whats the best way to become an airline pilot these days???
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I might aswell give my 2 pence worth in this topic as I feel my experience is novel.
Let's start of with...I did drop out of college. From a young age my ideal path to "success", like anyone's I am sure, was to go through school, college, get 4 Alevels, get a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, come out at 22 and go for sponsorship and spend the rest of my life as a happy airline pilot....
WRONG.
Came out of school with 9 GCSE's, 2/3rds of em' A's. Went to college and started doing AS level Chemistry/Physics/Computing and Maths. Straight to the point, I hated it. I argued with lecturers, hated the social scene, couldn't compete with "fashion" and therefore was classed as a "sad individual", it was hell. The subjects where uterly boring and I would always find myself, like you, promising to better myself but never did, basically because I didn't have any motivation. The flight deck seemed further away than ever before. Then, September 11th was a big moral-de-booster.
However, I still wanted to be a pilot. There's not a moment in my life that I can remember where I have never wanted to be with an aircraft, never wanted to be in an aircraft....never wanted to fly. Who ever said no education will prevent you from getting a job with an airline....well, I had decided and gave them 'the finger'.
I came out of college, worked weekends, saved up and enroled on module 1 for ATPL's. During this time, I built my flying hours (which I had before hand...), and got my multi engine rating. Not long ago appeared on TV about my "sucesses". Scheduled to go on TV again in May about my "sucesses" (sp?). Maybe the guy who said 'you'll never do it without a good education' will respect '17 year old drop outs' more. I didn't go on TV to "show off" or be "big headed", I agreed to do it to show what can be acheivable (and maybe a few more little reasons, but they're irrelevant
).
Just got back this week from Mod 1 exams, all went ok but it is tough work. I can tell you something, it is much harder than college, yet much better. Instead of getting put down, the lecturers reward you and your endeavours, and everyone is equal. The fact that I was with people older than me doesn't bother me one bit. You're all there because you want to be, everyone is mutual and there for each other...unlike college, it was a battle, where everyone was judgemental about one thing only, your appearance...Is this what airlines want?
Anyway, there you go, a different perspective. I am hoping to have my (f)ATPL this time next year, 18, and ready for employment but by no means guaranteeing a job. It did it because I wanted to.
If you want more advice then just ask.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
Let's start of with...I did drop out of college. From a young age my ideal path to "success", like anyone's I am sure, was to go through school, college, get 4 Alevels, get a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, come out at 22 and go for sponsorship and spend the rest of my life as a happy airline pilot....
WRONG.
Came out of school with 9 GCSE's, 2/3rds of em' A's. Went to college and started doing AS level Chemistry/Physics/Computing and Maths. Straight to the point, I hated it. I argued with lecturers, hated the social scene, couldn't compete with "fashion" and therefore was classed as a "sad individual", it was hell. The subjects where uterly boring and I would always find myself, like you, promising to better myself but never did, basically because I didn't have any motivation. The flight deck seemed further away than ever before. Then, September 11th was a big moral-de-booster.
However, I still wanted to be a pilot. There's not a moment in my life that I can remember where I have never wanted to be with an aircraft, never wanted to be in an aircraft....never wanted to fly. Who ever said no education will prevent you from getting a job with an airline....well, I had decided and gave them 'the finger'.
I came out of college, worked weekends, saved up and enroled on module 1 for ATPL's. During this time, I built my flying hours (which I had before hand...), and got my multi engine rating. Not long ago appeared on TV about my "sucesses". Scheduled to go on TV again in May about my "sucesses" (sp?). Maybe the guy who said 'you'll never do it without a good education' will respect '17 year old drop outs' more. I didn't go on TV to "show off" or be "big headed", I agreed to do it to show what can be acheivable (and maybe a few more little reasons, but they're irrelevant
).Just got back this week from Mod 1 exams, all went ok but it is tough work. I can tell you something, it is much harder than college, yet much better. Instead of getting put down, the lecturers reward you and your endeavours, and everyone is equal. The fact that I was with people older than me doesn't bother me one bit. You're all there because you want to be, everyone is mutual and there for each other...unlike college, it was a battle, where everyone was judgemental about one thing only, your appearance...Is this what airlines want?
Anyway, there you go, a different perspective. I am hoping to have my (f)ATPL this time next year, 18, and ready for employment but by no means guaranteeing a job. It did it because I wanted to.
If you want more advice then just ask.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
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OBK, you may turn out to be the exception that proves the rule - but you're not there yet! I look forward to hearing about your progress as you go on.
All the advice above for Stephen is that he should play the percentage game, maximising his chances of getting into a worthwhile career even if it's not aviation - as it may well not be. He can choose to ignore this advice, as you have done, if he wishes - it's not compulsory - and drop out of college to undertake flying training.
The snag is that I, and most of the others who've replied, have a suspicion that he hasn't thought this through fully and may be expecting a somewhat easier ride to flying than is in fact the case - and he needs to understand that dropping out is not the easy option. Before making a decision that may have ramifications for the rest of his working life, he needs to understand exactly what he's doing. One of the most important points is that he's never flown. That's not a good base from which to declare that flying is going to be his career especially when, in doing so, he may be giving up the option of other worthwhile careers if flying doesn't work out.
Don't get me wrong, I have lots of respect for those who know at 8 years old that they're going to be a pilot and move heaven and earth to make it happen. That kind of vocational drive is awesome - and I saw and trained lots of those kind of guys in the RAF. They knew everything there was to know about aeroplanes, the RAF, the lifestyle, the risks etc. long before they joined up. They also knew what educational qualifications were required of them - and what would give them an advantage - and they worked their socks off to get those qualifications. I don't get the feeling from what I read that Stephen is one of these people. I may be wrong.
Scroggs
All the advice above for Stephen is that he should play the percentage game, maximising his chances of getting into a worthwhile career even if it's not aviation - as it may well not be. He can choose to ignore this advice, as you have done, if he wishes - it's not compulsory - and drop out of college to undertake flying training.
The snag is that I, and most of the others who've replied, have a suspicion that he hasn't thought this through fully and may be expecting a somewhat easier ride to flying than is in fact the case - and he needs to understand that dropping out is not the easy option. Before making a decision that may have ramifications for the rest of his working life, he needs to understand exactly what he's doing. One of the most important points is that he's never flown. That's not a good base from which to declare that flying is going to be his career especially when, in doing so, he may be giving up the option of other worthwhile careers if flying doesn't work out.
Don't get me wrong, I have lots of respect for those who know at 8 years old that they're going to be a pilot and move heaven and earth to make it happen. That kind of vocational drive is awesome - and I saw and trained lots of those kind of guys in the RAF. They knew everything there was to know about aeroplanes, the RAF, the lifestyle, the risks etc. long before they joined up. They also knew what educational qualifications were required of them - and what would give them an advantage - and they worked their socks off to get those qualifications. I don't get the feeling from what I read that Stephen is one of these people. I may be wrong.
Scroggs
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I suppose I did forget to mention some 'things'.
Throughout all of this I have had the full support of mainly my father, who has always been there. I am so lucky to have a father who's ambition is to help me fullfill my chosen career. The agreement was that if I can fund for the ATPL exams myself (i.e proove to him I can do it....rather like with an airline I suppose), and pass them on my own behalf, he would help me out with the flying.
Before deciding to drop out of college I did a lot of thinking about career backups. I rang up several commercial training places such as the National IT Learning Centre, and they said if it doesn't work out I can go there and be funded by the government to do training for an IT related career, as I have a keen interest in IT. I also looked into BAE and several other aviation related careers that I could go down if I don't become a pilot. I also had a job offer from the company I worked for whilst doing work experience at school, apparantley as a "systems analyst"....they where willing to take me on straight out of school. I declined for obvious reasons.
The final decision for me to come out of college was supported by a handful of current pilots, instructors and 'other' people specific to the aviation industry. They told me I had their faith, and would at anytime be there for me. Apparantley to some I was "born with wings"....not quite
It's thanks to these people I am doing what I am, and enjoying every second of it.
Scroggs, I will be glad to keep you informed on my future progress.
Cheers
obk
Throughout all of this I have had the full support of mainly my father, who has always been there. I am so lucky to have a father who's ambition is to help me fullfill my chosen career. The agreement was that if I can fund for the ATPL exams myself (i.e proove to him I can do it....rather like with an airline I suppose), and pass them on my own behalf, he would help me out with the flying.
Before deciding to drop out of college I did a lot of thinking about career backups. I rang up several commercial training places such as the National IT Learning Centre, and they said if it doesn't work out I can go there and be funded by the government to do training for an IT related career, as I have a keen interest in IT. I also looked into BAE and several other aviation related careers that I could go down if I don't become a pilot. I also had a job offer from the company I worked for whilst doing work experience at school, apparantley as a "systems analyst"....they where willing to take me on straight out of school. I declined for obvious reasons.
The final decision for me to come out of college was supported by a handful of current pilots, instructors and 'other' people specific to the aviation industry. They told me I had their faith, and would at anytime be there for me. Apparantley to some I was "born with wings"....not quite
It's thanks to these people I am doing what I am, and enjoying every second of it. Scroggs, I will be glad to keep you informed on my future progress.
Cheers
obk
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To be an airline pilot? Well, self sponsorship is probably the most likely route for you to take to get your fATPL. At this point however, as others point out, the ATPL exams are not a walk in the park.
I am in business in DCU. Ultimately i want to follow a career as an airline pilot. I have the Trevor Thom books which i read, and i have a few, not many, lessons, under my belt at PPL level. This will give you a good idea of what flying is about.
Whatever you decide to do as regards college, it would be prudent to have a plan B should aviation not work out. Bear in mind that many people who qualify with fATPL's never reach a commercial airliner cockpit.
I sense that engineering may have been the wrong course choice for you. But, showing that you can pass something that you do not enjoy, will show character. And of the 14 ATPL's i am certain that you will come up with something which equally will require "character" to pass, and first time passes and high scores will increase your attractiveness to potential employers.
In any event, good academic achievement will stand to you in life. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
I would sit the exams, study my ass off for the next three weeks and try to pass. Then you have the summer to work, save some money, get a medical and i would strongly suggest taking a few lessons to get the feel of flying.
Also, do as much research as is humanely possible into all training options and career opportunities.
I am in business in DCU. Ultimately i want to follow a career as an airline pilot. I have the Trevor Thom books which i read, and i have a few, not many, lessons, under my belt at PPL level. This will give you a good idea of what flying is about.
Whatever you decide to do as regards college, it would be prudent to have a plan B should aviation not work out. Bear in mind that many people who qualify with fATPL's never reach a commercial airliner cockpit.
I sense that engineering may have been the wrong course choice for you. But, showing that you can pass something that you do not enjoy, will show character. And of the 14 ATPL's i am certain that you will come up with something which equally will require "character" to pass, and first time passes and high scores will increase your attractiveness to potential employers.
In any event, good academic achievement will stand to you in life. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
I would sit the exams, study my ass off for the next three weeks and try to pass. Then you have the summer to work, save some money, get a medical and i would strongly suggest taking a few lessons to get the feel of flying.
Also, do as much research as is humanely possible into all training options and career opportunities.
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Hello guys,
I think I can relate to Stephen in some way,
I just turned 18 years old and I am graduating from High School in the United States in 2 months. I have to note that I have never flown before. As scroggs was saying I am one of those people who from the age of 3 knew that I wanted to be a pilot and right now I am determined to get there no matter what!
Knowing many pilots here in the US and in Europe, I have researched and understood the life of a pilot and what it takes to be one.
As we all know, in order to work in a Major Airline in the United States you need a 4 year degree. Usually all aspiring pilots decide to go to college get a degree in a field of interest and then head over to Flight School and do their training. I am doing the total opposite, going to Flight School in Florida get all my ratings and then attend college. Many people in the U.S have put me down for this telling me that I will not go back to college and I will never achieve my goal. This may be true for many people, but the fact is that if you are determined individual that wants to be a pilot and you know that COLLEGE IS A MUST, you will go and study your ass off no matter what, even if it bores you to death! Some people might be saying that I am going to Flight School because I am scared im not gonna pass or I don't have the grades??? That is ridiculous, I have finished top of my class and Im sure I can get into most of the colleges I want to attend. But the fact is that I want to put my foot in the door early.
I saw that you are failing most of your subjects because they are boring?, so what if there boring, sit down for 4 5 6 as many as 7 hours and pass those exams!, you should be able to do it! , I don't know why it should be boring?, since when is learning something and gaining knowledge bad?
Stephen the thing that has helped me be confident no matter what people are telling me regarding college is that, I HAVE SET MY PRIORITIES ... dropping out of college for you right now isnt a good idea. Concentrate and make a plan out for yourself, you might have to jump many hurdles but that shouldn't stop you from your dream and your passion to fly. I hope all works out for you.
I think I can relate to Stephen in some way,
I just turned 18 years old and I am graduating from High School in the United States in 2 months. I have to note that I have never flown before. As scroggs was saying I am one of those people who from the age of 3 knew that I wanted to be a pilot and right now I am determined to get there no matter what!
Knowing many pilots here in the US and in Europe, I have researched and understood the life of a pilot and what it takes to be one.
As we all know, in order to work in a Major Airline in the United States you need a 4 year degree. Usually all aspiring pilots decide to go to college get a degree in a field of interest and then head over to Flight School and do their training. I am doing the total opposite, going to Flight School in Florida get all my ratings and then attend college. Many people in the U.S have put me down for this telling me that I will not go back to college and I will never achieve my goal. This may be true for many people, but the fact is that if you are determined individual that wants to be a pilot and you know that COLLEGE IS A MUST, you will go and study your ass off no matter what, even if it bores you to death! Some people might be saying that I am going to Flight School because I am scared im not gonna pass or I don't have the grades??? That is ridiculous, I have finished top of my class and Im sure I can get into most of the colleges I want to attend. But the fact is that I want to put my foot in the door early.
I saw that you are failing most of your subjects because they are boring?, so what if there boring, sit down for 4 5 6 as many as 7 hours and pass those exams!, you should be able to do it! , I don't know why it should be boring?, since when is learning something and gaining knowledge bad?
Stephen the thing that has helped me be confident no matter what people are telling me regarding college is that, I HAVE SET MY PRIORITIES ... dropping out of college for you right now isnt a good idea. Concentrate and make a plan out for yourself, you might have to jump many hurdles but that shouldn't stop you from your dream and your passion to fly. I hope all works out for you.
I pick up on Scroggs theme - too little understanding of what you are getting into.
With little idea of the training, the employment market or the actual job it is simply a huge leap or faith at this age to commit to a professional flying career. It is likely to end negatively in my opinion.
During my time in Jerez I saw many types of student. The 17/18/19yr olds struggled on many different levels.
Youth = time on your side. In these troubled times that suggests one strategy... WAIT.
WWW
With little idea of the training, the employment market or the actual job it is simply a huge leap or faith at this age to commit to a professional flying career. It is likely to end negatively in my opinion.
During my time in Jerez I saw many types of student. The 17/18/19yr olds struggled on many different levels.
Youth = time on your side. In these troubled times that suggests one strategy... WAIT.
WWW
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Not sure I would entirely agree with your comments on 17/18/19 year olds at Jerez WWW. There were certainly a few jokers who were just there cos mummy and daddy could afford to throw cash at them left right and centre but I would definately say that they were in the minority. Would say that they all worked exceptionally hard and coped with the course every bit as well as the older guys and girls out there.
Would even go so far as to say that the older folk who were on the course struggled a little bit more due to being out of the "study habit" for so long. Also found that people who left wife/fiancee/ children at home struggled the most with homesickness which certainly affected their ability to devote everything to the course.
Everyone had their own personal issues to deal with while they were out there - dont really think age made all that much of a difference at all, if someone has the desire and determination to work through the course then they'll make it.
And thus ends my tuppence worth for Sunday
Would even go so far as to say that the older folk who were on the course struggled a little bit more due to being out of the "study habit" for so long. Also found that people who left wife/fiancee/ children at home struggled the most with homesickness which certainly affected their ability to devote everything to the course.
Everyone had their own personal issues to deal with while they were out there - dont really think age made all that much of a difference at all, if someone has the desire and determination to work through the course then they'll make it.
And thus ends my tuppence worth for Sunday
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I´m with you on that one tunneler,
In my time here in Jerez I haven´t seen the youngsters struggle any more than the rest of us. In fact they usually get a handle on the flying side of things a lot quicker than the old farts like me. Maybe one or two have had motivation problems with some of the groundschool stuff but haven´t we all at some stage. Being hung upside down in a cell would be more fun than trying to learn some of the subjects (Ops Procedures and Air Law spring quite readily to mind).
At that age, apart from the lack of personal baggage when you take up these studies (whatever route modular/integrated/etc you choose), when you leave you can look for work anywhere the JAA fATPL is accepted.
Having a back up career is all very well but will it take 3 or 4 years of college? Plus a shed load of debt for a degree that you were not madly in love with in the first place? Then go rustle up 50k for what you wanted to do in the first place. How practical is all that?
Also, this constant mantra of don´t do it, the end is nigh is all very well and good but the day will come when airlines do get busy recruiting again. Maybe next year or the year after. And when it happens some of us will be ready with our fATPLs. Not ´Oh hang on just give me 18 months, then I´ll be ready´, no ready now. And before we get into any talk of ´Well then laddie you had better to be ready to get to the end of a very long queue´, there is no queue. Right now there is a whole bunch of fATPLs chasing the same very very few jobs. Whether you got your fATPL last week or two years ago matters not a jot. There is no queue. Whether you paid 50k over a short spell in Jerez or Oxford, or 50k over a longer spell doing it the modular way matters not a jot. You get the same fATPL and there is no queue.
In my time here in Jerez I haven´t seen the youngsters struggle any more than the rest of us. In fact they usually get a handle on the flying side of things a lot quicker than the old farts like me. Maybe one or two have had motivation problems with some of the groundschool stuff but haven´t we all at some stage. Being hung upside down in a cell would be more fun than trying to learn some of the subjects (Ops Procedures and Air Law spring quite readily to mind).
At that age, apart from the lack of personal baggage when you take up these studies (whatever route modular/integrated/etc you choose), when you leave you can look for work anywhere the JAA fATPL is accepted.
Having a back up career is all very well but will it take 3 or 4 years of college? Plus a shed load of debt for a degree that you were not madly in love with in the first place? Then go rustle up 50k for what you wanted to do in the first place. How practical is all that?
Also, this constant mantra of don´t do it, the end is nigh is all very well and good but the day will come when airlines do get busy recruiting again. Maybe next year or the year after. And when it happens some of us will be ready with our fATPLs. Not ´Oh hang on just give me 18 months, then I´ll be ready´, no ready now. And before we get into any talk of ´Well then laddie you had better to be ready to get to the end of a very long queue´, there is no queue. Right now there is a whole bunch of fATPLs chasing the same very very few jobs. Whether you got your fATPL last week or two years ago matters not a jot. There is no queue. Whether you paid 50k over a short spell in Jerez or Oxford, or 50k over a longer spell doing it the modular way matters not a jot. You get the same fATPL and there is no queue.
The only cadets chopped were <20.
In general terms I think early 20's is a great time to undertake professioanl flying training. <20 and you are a bit immature. Knocking on the door of 30 and you've got long term relationships and other commitments distracting you.
Just in general terms as I say.
I've seen teenagers start an Integrated ATPL using parental cash who couldn't name you more than 6 UK airlines. Who didn't actually know what a "turboprop job" was. Who had come straight out of college chuffed to bits with their clutch of Good to OK exam results thinking that meant they were academically gifted.
It was scary to think of what they had gotten themselves into based on a scant understanding of the FTOs marketing material.
Do a PPL first and hang around some clubhouses, chat to some instructors - get a feel for the bottom rungs of the ladder. It'll open your eyes. Plus if you then go onto a full time ATPL course - the PPL hours all count and will allow you to skip forward to the IMC phases immediately. It'll probably save you money too.
WWW
In general terms I think early 20's is a great time to undertake professioanl flying training. <20 and you are a bit immature. Knocking on the door of 30 and you've got long term relationships and other commitments distracting you.
Just in general terms as I say.
I've seen teenagers start an Integrated ATPL using parental cash who couldn't name you more than 6 UK airlines. Who didn't actually know what a "turboprop job" was. Who had come straight out of college chuffed to bits with their clutch of Good to OK exam results thinking that meant they were academically gifted.
It was scary to think of what they had gotten themselves into based on a scant understanding of the FTOs marketing material.
Do a PPL first and hang around some clubhouses, chat to some instructors - get a feel for the bottom rungs of the ladder. It'll open your eyes. Plus if you then go onto a full time ATPL course - the PPL hours all count and will allow you to skip forward to the IMC phases immediately. It'll probably save you money too.
WWW
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"<20 and you are a bit immature."
In what position are you to make a comment like this? Basically, this is ageism, your saying the younger....the more immature (erh..woops, just wizzed on my own bonfire!). But you can't just assume this and make a blunt comment like that. Because I will be 18/19 when I get my (f)ATPL does this mean I am going to get denied by airlines based on my age and because I am automatically considered immature? At least let me show you how good a guy I can be! Golly!
This could be a question in that all important airline interview,
"why should we choose you a not someone younger"
"Oh, because I am more mature"
"so your making an assumption?"
"erh, eeh, oohh..."
"see yah!".
I've been through the age discussion thing many times, basically because I was worried about being so young and applying to an airline. I was told not to let it get in my way, I am as professionally trained as anyone else?! And I can be as mature, if not more.
"I've seen teenagers start an Integrated ATPL using parental cash who couldn't name you more than 6 UK airlines."
Yep, I agree. Cocky aint they! But I've seen a hell of a lot more 25-30 year olds who can't tell the difference between a 747 and a 737 who fancy a "career change"....hmm.
"Who had come straight out of college chuffed to bits with their clutch of Good to OK exam results thinking that meant they were academically gifted."
I too detest thess people, but again, what position am I in to make a comment about these people. It's always an amusement to see someone who came out of college, grade A in physics, first class degree at Oxford blah blah blah...start pulling their hair out over general nav (my fav!)....golly gosh! Still, we're supposed to be envious of these people as they are airlines 'ideal sponsorship applicants'.
Last edited by OBK!; 14th Apr 2003 at 01:28.
The question posed by this thread reminds me of George Bernard Shaw's advice to anyone contemplating marriage - DONT!!
With the current state of the aviation business you have to ask yourself how prudent it is to attempt to embark on a career as pilot, especially if you are self funding.
I would be the last to dampen anyone's aspirations since it was always my dream to become an airline pilot but in today's world I am not so sure I would advise my children to get involved!
With the current state of the aviation business you have to ask yourself how prudent it is to attempt to embark on a career as pilot, especially if you are self funding.
I would be the last to dampen anyone's aspirations since it was always my dream to become an airline pilot but in today's world I am not so sure I would advise my children to get involved!
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"With the current state of the aviation business you have to ask yourself how prudent it is to attempt to embark on a career as pilot, especially if you are self funding."
You have to remember how long it takes fireflybob....18 months to 2 years. You don't just decide, then give ~£50K to someone and they give you the blue book.
When is it going to be a better time? The grass is alway greener on the other side? What are your justifications when saying now isn't a good time to start training? No one knows for certain whats going to be down the line in terms of recruitment in a year or two, but I know this, I would much rather do my ATPL during a recruitment "hibanation" (sp?) period so that I don't miss out on golden oppurtunities....i.e NOW. In my opinion there's no better time to start training. If you prefer to give it a year or two down the line then I'm not here to persuade you to do otherwise, but you've just wasted that 1/2 years.
It amazes me to see that a lot of people seem to think the airline industry is going to suddenly bloom into this massive craving for pilots....it's not going to happen (even if it did, you've then got to save money, spend it over 2 years, over which time it will calm down, and you'll have missed that golden oppurtunity...!DAM "I wish I started 2 years ago")....so there's never a good time to start training, unless you have a job waiting for you.
You have to remember how long it takes fireflybob....18 months to 2 years. You don't just decide, then give ~£50K to someone and they give you the blue book.
When is it going to be a better time? The grass is alway greener on the other side? What are your justifications when saying now isn't a good time to start training? No one knows for certain whats going to be down the line in terms of recruitment in a year or two, but I know this, I would much rather do my ATPL during a recruitment "hibanation" (sp?) period so that I don't miss out on golden oppurtunities....i.e NOW. In my opinion there's no better time to start training. If you prefer to give it a year or two down the line then I'm not here to persuade you to do otherwise, but you've just wasted that 1/2 years.
It amazes me to see that a lot of people seem to think the airline industry is going to suddenly bloom into this massive craving for pilots....it's not going to happen (even if it did, you've then got to save money, spend it over 2 years, over which time it will calm down, and you'll have missed that golden oppurtunity...!DAM "I wish I started 2 years ago")....so there's never a good time to start training, unless you have a job waiting for you.
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WWW,
Just to set the current record straight regarding people getting chopped here in Jerez. Since the college introduced compulsory entry testing for potential candidates or the requirement to sit the GAPAN tests, no one tested has been chopped.
I did witness 3 people getting chopped mid last year (who all started prior to those entry requirements) and they included a chap in his 30s, a young lady in her early 20s and a young lad of 19. No obvious conclusions from that cross section.
So do the GAPAN tests wherever you choose to go. If you choose to kick it off with a PPL, do the GAPAN tests before you do anything - medical, introduction flight, whatever. Alternatively, if you are set on Jerez or Oxford, do their entry tests.
Just to set the current record straight regarding people getting chopped here in Jerez. Since the college introduced compulsory entry testing for potential candidates or the requirement to sit the GAPAN tests, no one tested has been chopped.
I did witness 3 people getting chopped mid last year (who all started prior to those entry requirements) and they included a chap in his 30s, a young lady in her early 20s and a young lad of 19. No obvious conclusions from that cross section.
So do the GAPAN tests wherever you choose to go. If you choose to kick it off with a PPL, do the GAPAN tests before you do anything - medical, introduction flight, whatever. Alternatively, if you are set on Jerez or Oxford, do their entry tests.
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In answer to "what's the best way.........." it has to be whatever suits you and your circumstances at that time. Once you are qualified you are qualified, same ticket and approximate hours as every other new fATPL.
Whether prople have the aptitude to do the course or have the nerve to start it is purely down to their outlook on life. At the end of the day (awful cliche) if you want to do it bad enough you will regardless of age, background, finances, or market situation.
I agree with YOUNG OBK
that there is never a good time. It boils down to personality, if you are 18 or 38 and want it so bad you will do it.
I have read PPRUNE for many months now, I take the information and weigh it up in my mind. I am fully aware if the risks (big ones at that) and the benefits IF I make it.
Despite all that I have wanted to fly since I was 4....yes 4.... (now 33) and no matter what, I will give it my best shot. Better to try and fail than not to try at all. Before anyone says anything yes I might have an fATPL and a massive debt with no job but it's in the blood and the soul. I love to study, I actually enjoyed studying for my PPL exams (sad huh?) and cannot wait to start the ATPL's.
To be honest I want to do the exams no matter what happens.
Fingers crossed it all works out.
Whether prople have the aptitude to do the course or have the nerve to start it is purely down to their outlook on life. At the end of the day (awful cliche) if you want to do it bad enough you will regardless of age, background, finances, or market situation.
I agree with YOUNG OBK
that there is never a good time. It boils down to personality, if you are 18 or 38 and want it so bad you will do it.I have read PPRUNE for many months now, I take the information and weigh it up in my mind. I am fully aware if the risks (big ones at that) and the benefits IF I make it.
Despite all that I have wanted to fly since I was 4....yes 4.... (now 33) and no matter what, I will give it my best shot. Better to try and fail than not to try at all. Before anyone says anything yes I might have an fATPL and a massive debt with no job but it's in the blood and the soul. I love to study, I actually enjoyed studying for my PPL exams (sad huh?) and cannot wait to start the ATPL's.
To be honest I want to do the exams no matter what happens.
Fingers crossed it all works out.
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Well Stephen, bet you didn't think the answers to your quesion would run to three pages and you'd still be confused. But don't worry you have plenty of time. You are still very young and immature and I don't mean that in a bad way. Yes and you OBK. Maturity comes with age and sometimes bitter exprerience. The problem with being immature is that you are never aware of your own immaturity.
But I do think that you and anyone else in your position needs to be a little like OBK, brook no obstacles and keep a clear sight of the goal no matter how far away it seems. OBK will succeed because he is determined AND he has the backing of his Father's money. But most important of all he has it all worked out and obviously has a plan. His optimism that his age won't effect the selection process is misplaced. It will, 18 or 19 year old airline pilots are rather rare. Would you fly with an airline that proudly boasts of it's teenage first officers??
But it's hard to convince a 17 year old of that. I'm not making fun of you OBK. I was that 17 year old once. I had a plan, had it all worked out. The only problem was that I didn't have a supportive Father or money or any clue on how to achieve my goal. Yes I got there in the end but it took a lot of time and money and angst. The problem with OBK's route is that it requires money NOW and it effectively rules him out of any possible sponsorship should that route ever arise again. But I don't doubt he'll spend an enjoyable few years instructing or para dropping or whatever before getting the airline job aged 23 or 24, say in 2009 or 2010. Yes that's right about 6 or 7 years from now. A horrendously long time away when you're 17.
In fact it will be around the same time as you Stephen and all you 18 year olds out there will be coming on line. Those that stick with it anyway.
But you need a plan. You have to stay in college, if you leave now and get a job in FLS or something like that you may be in your thirties before you get a pilot position if you get a pilot position. Jobs like that simply don't pay enough. I made that mistake. The point of going to college is that it leads to a well paid job and a career. With a well paid job and a career it is easier to get money from the banks. Banks don't like dreamers. They want their money back and you have to convince them they will.
So you don't like Engineering? OK find something you do like, preferably something highly paid. You don't have to do a four year degree. There are all sorts of two and three year courses. You could consider going to the UK and training as an Aircraft Engineer. It's very practically orientated training but sadly not as well paid as it ought to be. But it's an option.
Once set on that route start using your spare cash and try for a PPL At least start a PPL. That puts you on the scene. You'll spend your time around pilots like you and see how they're doing it. If sponsorships come up again in the meantime, apply by all means but don't depend on getting one. Be warned though it was nearly ten years before the like of Aer Lingus sponsored again after stopping it in 1978. In fact given the new regime in place complete sponsorship may never happen again.
Once you leave college get that good job but don't tell your employer of your secret plan. After a year or two you can try to borrow to money for the likes of Jerez or Oxford. Or you can go the modular route. You'll have to find out the details yourself. Start flying lessons and hang around Weston a lot, (if it's still there and hasn't turned into a housing estate),asking dumb questions. Do the GAPAN tests and get a medical. There is no need to pay for a full JAA class 1 just yet. There are several Doctors who will test you. In any case you'll need a medical for your SPL.
I started flying when I was 18 and finally got my CPL when I was 36. (Money and the lack thereof) It doesn't have to take that long but it might. But you will need to allow 6 to 8 years from now. All the gloomy prognostications post Sept 11 are all very well but no one knows what things will be like this time next year never mind four years from now.
The decisions you make now will will effect where you'll be in ten years time. This is where you will have to muster all the maturity you have right now. Make a plan and a plan B and be prepared to be flexible. Above all learn to be patient and think long term. There are those who believe no 18 year old can think like that so prove them wrong. Remember though nothing worth doing is easy or quick.
But no matter what happens you will enjoy the flying and the camraderie and all the rest. I certainly did. If you don't, find another career.
You are only at the very start of a long haul. It may look almost impossible right now but it's not, just nearly impossible!!!!
But I do think that you and anyone else in your position needs to be a little like OBK, brook no obstacles and keep a clear sight of the goal no matter how far away it seems. OBK will succeed because he is determined AND he has the backing of his Father's money. But most important of all he has it all worked out and obviously has a plan. His optimism that his age won't effect the selection process is misplaced. It will, 18 or 19 year old airline pilots are rather rare. Would you fly with an airline that proudly boasts of it's teenage first officers??
But it's hard to convince a 17 year old of that. I'm not making fun of you OBK. I was that 17 year old once. I had a plan, had it all worked out. The only problem was that I didn't have a supportive Father or money or any clue on how to achieve my goal. Yes I got there in the end but it took a lot of time and money and angst. The problem with OBK's route is that it requires money NOW and it effectively rules him out of any possible sponsorship should that route ever arise again. But I don't doubt he'll spend an enjoyable few years instructing or para dropping or whatever before getting the airline job aged 23 or 24, say in 2009 or 2010. Yes that's right about 6 or 7 years from now. A horrendously long time away when you're 17.
In fact it will be around the same time as you Stephen and all you 18 year olds out there will be coming on line. Those that stick with it anyway.
But you need a plan. You have to stay in college, if you leave now and get a job in FLS or something like that you may be in your thirties before you get a pilot position if you get a pilot position. Jobs like that simply don't pay enough. I made that mistake. The point of going to college is that it leads to a well paid job and a career. With a well paid job and a career it is easier to get money from the banks. Banks don't like dreamers. They want their money back and you have to convince them they will.
So you don't like Engineering? OK find something you do like, preferably something highly paid. You don't have to do a four year degree. There are all sorts of two and three year courses. You could consider going to the UK and training as an Aircraft Engineer. It's very practically orientated training but sadly not as well paid as it ought to be. But it's an option.
Once set on that route start using your spare cash and try for a PPL At least start a PPL. That puts you on the scene. You'll spend your time around pilots like you and see how they're doing it. If sponsorships come up again in the meantime, apply by all means but don't depend on getting one. Be warned though it was nearly ten years before the like of Aer Lingus sponsored again after stopping it in 1978. In fact given the new regime in place complete sponsorship may never happen again.
Once you leave college get that good job but don't tell your employer of your secret plan. After a year or two you can try to borrow to money for the likes of Jerez or Oxford. Or you can go the modular route. You'll have to find out the details yourself. Start flying lessons and hang around Weston a lot, (if it's still there and hasn't turned into a housing estate),asking dumb questions. Do the GAPAN tests and get a medical. There is no need to pay for a full JAA class 1 just yet. There are several Doctors who will test you. In any case you'll need a medical for your SPL.
I started flying when I was 18 and finally got my CPL when I was 36. (Money and the lack thereof) It doesn't have to take that long but it might. But you will need to allow 6 to 8 years from now. All the gloomy prognostications post Sept 11 are all very well but no one knows what things will be like this time next year never mind four years from now.
The decisions you make now will will effect where you'll be in ten years time. This is where you will have to muster all the maturity you have right now. Make a plan and a plan B and be prepared to be flexible. Above all learn to be patient and think long term. There are those who believe no 18 year old can think like that so prove them wrong. Remember though nothing worth doing is easy or quick.
But no matter what happens you will enjoy the flying and the camraderie and all the rest. I certainly did. If you don't, find another career.
You are only at the very start of a long haul. It may look almost impossible right now but it's not, just nearly impossible!!!!
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Wanted to fly since I could look skyward.
I did it the modular route. Through pure cunning and determination, I qualified and now fly heavy jets. Great lifestyle, very good money, enjoying several months overseas each year.
Party on! Good luck dudes
I did it the modular route. Through pure cunning and determination, I qualified and now fly heavy jets. Great lifestyle, very good money, enjoying several months overseas each year.
Party on! Good luck dudes
OBK!. I made my generalised comments whilst wearing my Instructors Hat. I did a PPL at 17 and became an instructor at 19 so I am not in any way anti-teenager by experience. I have taught people to fly from an age range of 15 to 69 on both private and commercial courses.
It is my view, based on experience, that the ideal time to train is somewhere in the first half of your 20's. There are many examples of people who did it in their middle age or teen years. But I stand by my observation that issues of maturity often have adverse effect on flight training under the age of 20.
I am sure that this does not pertain to yourself. You seem very together about the whole thing.
DocMcGuire - thanks for digging out the figures. I think they mislead somewhat. As a member of the instructing staff there I can atest that we had more 'issues' with the teenage students than the others and that we attributed these in the main to factors you could lump together as maturity. The numbers under threat of being chopped were significantly higher amongst the youngsters and this was ackowledged by all during the routine process of course review amongst the staff.
By preferance an instructor would prefer to have a 24yr old graduate with half a PPL as his student than an 18yr old who has never flown before. As you will be well aware most instructors are in their mid 20's to mid 50's. I guess a typical mean would be about 30. Relating to an 18yr old can provide additional challenges which I admit is as much a fault of the instructor as the student.
Generalisations all.
WWW
It is my view, based on experience, that the ideal time to train is somewhere in the first half of your 20's. There are many examples of people who did it in their middle age or teen years. But I stand by my observation that issues of maturity often have adverse effect on flight training under the age of 20.
I am sure that this does not pertain to yourself. You seem very together about the whole thing.
DocMcGuire - thanks for digging out the figures. I think they mislead somewhat. As a member of the instructing staff there I can atest that we had more 'issues' with the teenage students than the others and that we attributed these in the main to factors you could lump together as maturity. The numbers under threat of being chopped were significantly higher amongst the youngsters and this was ackowledged by all during the routine process of course review amongst the staff.
By preferance an instructor would prefer to have a 24yr old graduate with half a PPL as his student than an 18yr old who has never flown before. As you will be well aware most instructors are in their mid 20's to mid 50's. I guess a typical mean would be about 30. Relating to an 18yr old can provide additional challenges which I admit is as much a fault of the instructor as the student.
Generalisations all.
WWW
