65K Plus for an ATPL?
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65K Plus for an ATPL?
Original post deleted because of clarification from Paul Hickley (OATS) about this new course.
I hope OATS are successful with this course as they have been before.
OATS have a course designed for everyone's pocket size.
So if you are rich there is the Partner course, if you cant afford the partner then there is the Full time Ab-Initio, and if you still cant afford that then there is the modular.
Thank you very much for your clarification PH.
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
I hope OATS are successful with this course as they have been before.
OATS have a course designed for everyone's pocket size.
So if you are rich there is the Partner course, if you cant afford the partner then there is the Full time Ab-Initio, and if you still cant afford that then there is the modular.
Thank you very much for your clarification PH.
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
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BOW5
The full ATPL programme is still there and at same cost as you were quoted.
But this is a new programme and costs 65K without accomodation and food.
I think the original programme is still expensive let alone this new airline partner programme.
Good luck to you if you can afford it!
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
The full ATPL programme is still there and at same cost as you were quoted.
But this is a new programme and costs 65K without accomodation and food.
I think the original programme is still expensive let alone this new airline partner programme.
Good luck to you if you can afford it!
[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
Well it just baffles me where people get the money from. But they do and OATS is pretty full...
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What confuses me is - Oxford can't guarantee you a job with an airline even if you sign up for the partner scheme surely. If not then all they are offering is a guarantee of an interview (or several) with airlines. Does this mean that they now no longer give any help at all to people on the basic £54,000 package to find a job afterwards? If so then basically is this scheme just a way to charge an extra £11,000 simply for a guaranteed interview? Surely there is a limit to how far OATS will go.
I've just checked OATS website and the basic £54,000 package claims that the graduates will be 'fully airline ready', however the £65,000 package, in addition to claiming to set up interviews 'for suitable students', claims to 'train students to higher levels', claiming they will be 'far more airline prepared than other pilots'. How can they get more highly trained than 'fully airline ready'? Exactly what additional training does it entail - there are no details?
TB
Apologies for the overuse of the word 'claim' and derivatives
[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]
I've just checked OATS website and the basic £54,000 package claims that the graduates will be 'fully airline ready', however the £65,000 package, in addition to claiming to set up interviews 'for suitable students', claims to 'train students to higher levels', claiming they will be 'far more airline prepared than other pilots'. How can they get more highly trained than 'fully airline ready'? Exactly what additional training does it entail - there are no details?
TB
Apologies for the overuse of the word 'claim' and derivatives
[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]
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Now if my memory serves me correctly, back in 1997 BAe Systems Prestwick set up a similar scheme called PASS. Partnership Airline Sponsorship Scheme (or something like). However, their approach was to recruit a pool of suitable candidates and various airlines would pick & choose from this pool, and offer a part sponsorship. After the Morrisby tests & GAPAN testing (totalling £500) I was one of the lucky 30 to beat off a 1000 initial applications. Brilliant!... ...Not quite. I think AIH took on 4 or 5, and that was it. We never heard from BAe again - change of management etc but it seemed the 'airlines' weren’t really interested in recruiting back then.
Although I didn't end up with a job, it certainly built my confidence up (quite young then) and I still believe it was worth every penny.
Back to my main point, similar things have been done before - didn't really work, cost me only £500 to tell me I was suitable for Airline work. As it's already been stated, there's still no 100% guarantee of a job - not be even an interview and that is one costly exercise. On the other hand someone's going to get a job and it could be you...
...best of luck to all who go for it & happy flying
CFIT
Although I didn't end up with a job, it certainly built my confidence up (quite young then) and I still believe it was worth every penny.
Back to my main point, similar things have been done before - didn't really work, cost me only £500 to tell me I was suitable for Airline work. As it's already been stated, there's still no 100% guarantee of a job - not be even an interview and that is one costly exercise. On the other hand someone's going to get a job and it could be you...
...best of luck to all who go for it & happy flying
CFIT
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MURRAY, we were told at the seminar in August that the partnership programme was now the ATPL and cost 54k. I got the impression that was why the cost had risen from 48k. Now they say its 65k for the partnership programme.
This drives me up the wall!! If you are not guarenteed a job, even on the partnership programme, then what the hell chance has anyone got who is on the normal ATPL course? Surely, if the ATPL course isn't sufficient for people to gain employment then everyone should be doing the partnership programme.
What makes it worse is that at this seminar someone asked a question about aptitude testing and recieved a reply along the lines of "we don't think aptitude tests are relevant. We like to see people who have failed the aptitude tests but are still determined". Everyone knows that is rubbish and that aptitude tests are very important. AND WHAT HAPPENS?! Suprise suprise, people who are attempt to go on the partnership programme are aptitude tested!!
There is too much inconsistancy in the information they give out. More to the point, if I get one more school/airline saying that early 20's is the best time to train i'll scream. How on earth do schools expect people who have spent three years at uni and graduated at 21-22 to find 65k to then train as an airline pilot. According to the OATS website, the HSBC will only give proff development loans up to 30k. That leaves 35k to find. Who are they kidding?
This drives me up the wall!! If you are not guarenteed a job, even on the partnership programme, then what the hell chance has anyone got who is on the normal ATPL course? Surely, if the ATPL course isn't sufficient for people to gain employment then everyone should be doing the partnership programme.
What makes it worse is that at this seminar someone asked a question about aptitude testing and recieved a reply along the lines of "we don't think aptitude tests are relevant. We like to see people who have failed the aptitude tests but are still determined". Everyone knows that is rubbish and that aptitude tests are very important. AND WHAT HAPPENS?! Suprise suprise, people who are attempt to go on the partnership programme are aptitude tested!!
There is too much inconsistancy in the information they give out. More to the point, if I get one more school/airline saying that early 20's is the best time to train i'll scream. How on earth do schools expect people who have spent three years at uni and graduated at 21-22 to find 65k to then train as an airline pilot. According to the OATS website, the HSBC will only give proff development loans up to 30k. That leaves 35k to find. Who are they kidding?
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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HSBC do lend well over the £30k mark in their PSL. I know a guy who borrowed over £60k. Takes guts and determination though.
VFE.
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I work at Oxford Aviation, so I have an interest to declare. I also know that Scroggs and WWW have a firm policy on no use of pprune for advertising - which I
understand and respect. However, there are so many half-understood ideas on this
thread that I hope that the following will be seen as a simple statement of the facts
and a correction to misapprehensions, not as hyping the product. If you’re
badmouthing us, we ought to have the right to reply. May I also say that I’m writing
as a private individual, not a management-approved mouthpiece?
We are talking about 2 different things here. One is the standard course - about
£54K - which we run at present. This includes both airline-sponsored and self-
sponsored, and we already try to help the self-sponsored by advice on CVs, extra-
curicular lectures from airline recruiters, and - if any of our client airlines are short of sponsored recruits - by actually recommending suitable self-sponsored students
towards the end of the course, when we have had time to see how they have
actually performed.
This new Partnership Programme is different. There will be a selection procedure.
We expect (we can’t guarantee, but we expect) to be able to place EVERY
Partnership student with an airline. We cannot afford to take on people who are not
likely to be at, ot very near to, the standard of airline sponsored students. Otherwide
we would be taking their money under false pretences.
These selected candidates will then be expected to perform to a high standard on
the course - about 85% on every progress test, internal exam, and JAA exam. If
you’re not hacking it, you switch to the normal course (at a lower price).
It’s much more than just a guarantee of an interview. We write very comprehensive
reports on you at Oxford, both on the ground and in the air. They are usually 3-5
pages long and are similar to a military Annual Report. We make these available
(with your consent) to the Partnership airlines. We expect most of the Partnership
students to havbe a firm offer of a job well before the end of the course. We expect
everyone who makes the grade to have a job at the end of it. We also expect that
many of the airlines will pay part sponsorship, once they have offered a firm place.
In that case, your course might end up costing you about £30 - 35 K - your career
development loan. I use the word ‘expect’ because we can’t guarantee it yet. We
will have to wait and see how it all ackles down. In the meantime, this course is not
for everybody - only the best. It also includes simulator and airline orientation. - to
save the airlines time.
Airlines are short of pilots, but they won’t recruit just anybody. The knowledge that
there was a guaranteed standard of candidate, a full report on his perfromance, and
a simulator-trained candidate would take so much doubt away from them and would
save them so much time and expense in recruiting.
Paul Hickley
understand and respect. However, there are so many half-understood ideas on this
thread that I hope that the following will be seen as a simple statement of the facts
and a correction to misapprehensions, not as hyping the product. If you’re
badmouthing us, we ought to have the right to reply. May I also say that I’m writing
as a private individual, not a management-approved mouthpiece?
We are talking about 2 different things here. One is the standard course - about
£54K - which we run at present. This includes both airline-sponsored and self-
sponsored, and we already try to help the self-sponsored by advice on CVs, extra-
curicular lectures from airline recruiters, and - if any of our client airlines are short of sponsored recruits - by actually recommending suitable self-sponsored students
towards the end of the course, when we have had time to see how they have
actually performed.
This new Partnership Programme is different. There will be a selection procedure.
We expect (we can’t guarantee, but we expect) to be able to place EVERY
Partnership student with an airline. We cannot afford to take on people who are not
likely to be at, ot very near to, the standard of airline sponsored students. Otherwide
we would be taking their money under false pretences.
These selected candidates will then be expected to perform to a high standard on
the course - about 85% on every progress test, internal exam, and JAA exam. If
you’re not hacking it, you switch to the normal course (at a lower price).
It’s much more than just a guarantee of an interview. We write very comprehensive
reports on you at Oxford, both on the ground and in the air. They are usually 3-5
pages long and are similar to a military Annual Report. We make these available
(with your consent) to the Partnership airlines. We expect most of the Partnership
students to havbe a firm offer of a job well before the end of the course. We expect
everyone who makes the grade to have a job at the end of it. We also expect that
many of the airlines will pay part sponsorship, once they have offered a firm place.
In that case, your course might end up costing you about £30 - 35 K - your career
development loan. I use the word ‘expect’ because we can’t guarantee it yet. We
will have to wait and see how it all ackles down. In the meantime, this course is not
for everybody - only the best. It also includes simulator and airline orientation. - to
save the airlines time.
Airlines are short of pilots, but they won’t recruit just anybody. The knowledge that
there was a guaranteed standard of candidate, a full report on his perfromance, and
a simulator-trained candidate would take so much doubt away from them and would
save them so much time and expense in recruiting.
Paul Hickley
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You can't blame Oxford, after all they are in it to make money!
Rather its the mugs that go along with this and pay their 65K + living expenses to be on this course!
One would hope there are plenty of interviews after spending this kind of money, but hey i'm sure the Oxford people probably have some sort of 'get-out clause'! And further to this it’s the airlines choice at the end of the day not OATS on who decides whether they take you on or not!
Really what are people thinking about when they spend 65K, when they can get the same licenses for a lot less!
While there are mugs out there that will pay for such courses and you only need to look at OATs and see, the training schools will keep on doing it!
Its rather like these expensive trainers and sports wear etc. The only reason why they are so expensive is that they know people will pay for them! Albeit there is also an elitist attitude to wearing such as Rockport boots or going to OATs, but you get the general impression!
Really the wannabes themselves are spoiling it for themselves with there easy to please- pay for everything attitude. I realise its a hard world out there to find jobs but if everyone stopped at the same point in their training everyone would be much better off! It would then be more up to the airlines to bridge the gap rather than taking on wannabes who have their own 737 type rating etc.
Airlines would have to rely more heavily on personal qualitites (I know they do already) rather than selecting a pool of candidates who have just spent 80K on a new spanking course and a type rating and then selecting those candidates on personal qualities!
If BA ever wants to boost its profits I'm sure people out there would pay 150K to go on their trainee pilot scheme with job at end! It would prove to be a nice little earner for them me thinks!!
Rather its the mugs that go along with this and pay their 65K + living expenses to be on this course!
One would hope there are plenty of interviews after spending this kind of money, but hey i'm sure the Oxford people probably have some sort of 'get-out clause'! And further to this it’s the airlines choice at the end of the day not OATS on who decides whether they take you on or not!
Really what are people thinking about when they spend 65K, when they can get the same licenses for a lot less!
While there are mugs out there that will pay for such courses and you only need to look at OATs and see, the training schools will keep on doing it!
Its rather like these expensive trainers and sports wear etc. The only reason why they are so expensive is that they know people will pay for them! Albeit there is also an elitist attitude to wearing such as Rockport boots or going to OATs, but you get the general impression!
Really the wannabes themselves are spoiling it for themselves with there easy to please- pay for everything attitude. I realise its a hard world out there to find jobs but if everyone stopped at the same point in their training everyone would be much better off! It would then be more up to the airlines to bridge the gap rather than taking on wannabes who have their own 737 type rating etc.
Airlines would have to rely more heavily on personal qualitites (I know they do already) rather than selecting a pool of candidates who have just spent 80K on a new spanking course and a type rating and then selecting those candidates on personal qualities!
If BA ever wants to boost its profits I'm sure people out there would pay 150K to go on their trainee pilot scheme with job at end! It would prove to be a nice little earner for them me thinks!!
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Paul,
Thanks for your reply to this. Don't get me wrong, when I visited the seminar I was very impressed and had pretty much made my mind up to train at OATS. Although it is more expensive than other schools I thought the extra training, sim time + the brand name on my CV would be cery beneficial (aren't I a sucker for a marketing ploy! )
. As i'm sure you can understand, everyone wants the best possible chance of getting a job at the end of their training and it seems to me that now at OATS it means trying to get onto the partnership programme. What worries me, apart from the extra 11k + living costs, is that if I or any one else is not suitable for the partnership programme then surely the airlines involved in the scheme will be looking at graduates of the ATPL course as second class. If they are part of the scheme then it makes sense they will take pretty much only graduates of the partnership scheme. I'm sure in some cases (which it could will be in mine) it is not lack of aptitude or qualifications but the inability to raise the 70k + needed to get on the scheme, especially at the age of 22.
I personally think this scheme is something that has been a long time coming for pilot training and OATS should be applauded for making it happen. What I would like to know, that isn't forthcoming on your website, is the exact details of the HSBC partnership (something mentioned but in no way made clear at the seminar), how much can be borrowed and the age at which you envisage the average person will start this course, because as a 22 year old graduate, my bank account reads a long long way short of 70k.
Cheers.
Thanks for your reply to this. Don't get me wrong, when I visited the seminar I was very impressed and had pretty much made my mind up to train at OATS. Although it is more expensive than other schools I thought the extra training, sim time + the brand name on my CV would be cery beneficial (aren't I a sucker for a marketing ploy! )
. As i'm sure you can understand, everyone wants the best possible chance of getting a job at the end of their training and it seems to me that now at OATS it means trying to get onto the partnership programme. What worries me, apart from the extra 11k + living costs, is that if I or any one else is not suitable for the partnership programme then surely the airlines involved in the scheme will be looking at graduates of the ATPL course as second class. If they are part of the scheme then it makes sense they will take pretty much only graduates of the partnership scheme. I'm sure in some cases (which it could will be in mine) it is not lack of aptitude or qualifications but the inability to raise the 70k + needed to get on the scheme, especially at the age of 22.I personally think this scheme is something that has been a long time coming for pilot training and OATS should be applauded for making it happen. What I would like to know, that isn't forthcoming on your website, is the exact details of the HSBC partnership (something mentioned but in no way made clear at the seminar), how much can be borrowed and the age at which you envisage the average person will start this course, because as a 22 year old graduate, my bank account reads a long long way short of 70k.
Cheers.
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Cheers for the info Rich.
I'll give the bank a call but do you know if, for instance, you could borrow 30k at 2% then a further 25-30k at a higher interest rate, or is the 30k the limit?
There was a post further up this thread saying the HSBC have loaned more than 60k to people. The interest on that does not even bear thinking about.
I'll give the bank a call but do you know if, for instance, you could borrow 30k at 2% then a further 25-30k at a higher interest rate, or is the 30k the limit?
There was a post further up this thread saying the HSBC have loaned more than 60k to people. The interest on that does not even bear thinking about.
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What 75k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No thanks i'd rather have:
1 x Small Yacht
1 x 100% share in a pa 28 warrior
1 x 3 bedroom house in Lake district
1 x 2 bedroom apt in manchester city centre
2 x TVR Chimeras
1 x Porsche 911
1250 Jumpseat rides to barcelona with EZY jet
75 Weeks in Monaco
75 Tecra 8000 Laptops
7,500,000 1 Penny chews!
2 x Multiflights Ab Initio ATPL course!
3 x SFT's Ab Initio course!
In fact ive changed my mind!!
Write the price on a glossy piece of paper with a big 737 next to it, and ill give you the 75K!!!!!!
Edited coz i can't spell or use comma's!!!!
[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Rob 747 ]
No thanks i'd rather have:
1 x Small Yacht
1 x 100% share in a pa 28 warrior
1 x 3 bedroom house in Lake district
1 x 2 bedroom apt in manchester city centre
2 x TVR Chimeras
1 x Porsche 911
1250 Jumpseat rides to barcelona with EZY jet
75 Weeks in Monaco
75 Tecra 8000 Laptops
7,500,000 1 Penny chews!
2 x Multiflights Ab Initio ATPL course!
3 x SFT's Ab Initio course!
In fact ive changed my mind!!
Write the price on a glossy piece of paper with a big 737 next to it, and ill give you the 75K!!!!!!
Edited coz i can't spell or use comma's!!!!
[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Rob 747 ]
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The way the £65K course is being marketed, there definitely seems to be a concerning trend here.
i.e. "the more money you pay, the more likely you are to get a job at the end". I would have thought that it should be "the better qualified pilot you are, the more likely you are to get a job".
I also seem to remember it being said by OATS that on some occasions, exceptional students on the standard ATPL course may well be recommended to airlines for sponsorship or other benefit later on in the course. Does the introduction of the partnership course now mean that if you are exceptional, you still won't get recommended unless you put forward the extra dosh.
It just doesn't sound right to me!
i.e. "the more money you pay, the more likely you are to get a job at the end". I would have thought that it should be "the better qualified pilot you are, the more likely you are to get a job".
I also seem to remember it being said by OATS that on some occasions, exceptional students on the standard ATPL course may well be recommended to airlines for sponsorship or other benefit later on in the course. Does the introduction of the partnership course now mean that if you are exceptional, you still won't get recommended unless you put forward the extra dosh.
It just doesn't sound right to me!