65K Plus for an ATPL?
Join Date: Dec 1997
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Crash Barrier,
I think you nicely illustrate the genre of the emotional and irrational poster!
None of the moderators here present advertise or recommend any particular course provider. We do, at times, try and explain the idiosyncracies of the system when people are lost in its complexity, and we most certainly point out the facts of commercial life with which you must deal if you want to become an airline pilot in Europe.
I neither recommended Oxford's new course, nor did I present it as the only way to progress to an airline job. In fact, I thought I quite neatly showed that Oxford's course is just one of many ways to get there, and that the small number of people who do enrol on it will not significantly affect the overall market. I did, however, attempt to explain the rational behind the course, as I saw it.
You can wish all you like that commercial licence training were cheaper and easier. It isn't, and will not be so. You can also wish that all those who'd like to be an airline pilot should succeed. They won't. You might prefer it if I flannelled you all with a message that it'll all be alright, you'll all make it, and it'll only cost you £15 with your Sainsbury's Reward card. I won't.
I, and WWW, and the others when they visit, are here to keep your ramblings on the reasonably straight and narrow, and prevent you getting lost in the dream world which some of you would apparently like to inhabit!
It's not for us to reinforce your preconceptions or dreams, but to tell you how it really is. I'm sorry you can't take that, but those who can are more likely to be better prepared for what actually lies ahead.
Rob747, looks like you're getting there!
I think you nicely illustrate the genre of the emotional and irrational poster!
None of the moderators here present advertise or recommend any particular course provider. We do, at times, try and explain the idiosyncracies of the system when people are lost in its complexity, and we most certainly point out the facts of commercial life with which you must deal if you want to become an airline pilot in Europe.
I neither recommended Oxford's new course, nor did I present it as the only way to progress to an airline job. In fact, I thought I quite neatly showed that Oxford's course is just one of many ways to get there, and that the small number of people who do enrol on it will not significantly affect the overall market. I did, however, attempt to explain the rational behind the course, as I saw it.
You can wish all you like that commercial licence training were cheaper and easier. It isn't, and will not be so. You can also wish that all those who'd like to be an airline pilot should succeed. They won't. You might prefer it if I flannelled you all with a message that it'll all be alright, you'll all make it, and it'll only cost you £15 with your Sainsbury's Reward card. I won't.
I, and WWW, and the others when they visit, are here to keep your ramblings on the reasonably straight and narrow, and prevent you getting lost in the dream world which some of you would apparently like to inhabit!
It's not for us to reinforce your preconceptions or dreams, but to tell you how it really is. I'm sorry you can't take that, but those who can are more likely to be better prepared for what actually lies ahead.
Rob747, looks like you're getting there!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Andover, Hampshire, UK
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This page (6) is probably contains the most useful information of any I've read on PPRune; bravo to the admin guys for posting it! That said I do agree with Pugzi too...
I must admit I only started posting onto pprune to mention EPST, previously only viewing the pages. I got fed up with the repeting same old questions coming up nigh on every week and frankly I lost the will to post; this is the first this week anyway.
I'd say the first rule for ANYBODY thinking of going into commercial aviation is to 'find out if YOU CAN do it'.
I.e can you meet the requirements of a class 1 medical and do an aptitude test (Gapan recommended). You must do this if you are serious about spending lots of dosh.
Of course a sponsorship/RAF will take care of this for you...
Perhaps a free test courtsey of Java and my website could help... Oh for the time!
But again big thanks to the admin guys, top class info.
Graeme Scott
[email protected]
I must admit I only started posting onto pprune to mention EPST, previously only viewing the pages. I got fed up with the repeting same old questions coming up nigh on every week and frankly I lost the will to post; this is the first this week anyway.
I'd say the first rule for ANYBODY thinking of going into commercial aviation is to 'find out if YOU CAN do it'.
I.e can you meet the requirements of a class 1 medical and do an aptitude test (Gapan recommended). You must do this if you are serious about spending lots of dosh.
Of course a sponsorship/RAF will take care of this for you...
Perhaps a free test courtsey of Java and my website could help... Oh for the time!
But again big thanks to the admin guys, top class info.
Graeme Scott
[email protected]
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Just wanted to pass on my thanks to the moderators, for all the effort they have put into this forum. I for one have benefited from their experiences.
What's more, I get the feeling that once through the gate, there is a dendancy to make sure that the gate remains shut.
I mention that not as a criticism nor to further stoke the debate, but as a compliment to the moderators for all the effort and advice that they part with, maybe not the norm for those who have landed their dream job.
PS
pps, sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. You have a choice - take it or leave it, but moaning is not going to change it.
What's more, I get the feeling that once through the gate, there is a dendancy to make sure that the gate remains shut.
I mention that not as a criticism nor to further stoke the debate, but as a compliment to the moderators for all the effort and advice that they part with, maybe not the norm for those who have landed their dream job.
PS
pps, sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. You have a choice - take it or leave it, but moaning is not going to change it.
Flies for fun
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Consider this, if the training was cheaper, more would undertake the training and pilots would undoubtedly have an even smaller chance of getting hired at the end of the training! It is unfortunate though that so many people undertake the training when it is very clear to all except maybe the student that he/she will never realistically ever obtain gainful employment as a pilot. An ATPL is easy, it only requires training. The other qualities necessary are embedded in the personality of the individual.
Join Date: May 2001
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Boo Hoo Hoo, I am filling up with tears and emotion! well done you guys (moderators)
OK, well if it is not blatant 'advertising' of schools then maybe it is simply 'promotion' Capt PPrune comments "OATS are primarily in business to make a profit whilst providing a service to both the Airlines and Wannabes" then mentions OATS a further 3 times in his thread!
Aviation is a small world and maybe it's a case of you scratch my back. I am not saying that promotion of the UK aviation training industry is wrong but what I don't like is the fact that the moderators (wee weasley especially) seem to think that the JAA licence is a superior test of airmanship compared to all other flying licences worldwide.
It is up to the consumer where he wants to train, I am sure that U.S. airlines fly just as safely as U.K. and european airlines. It is the blatant snobbery of this forum towards other licences that I cannot stand.
'Other' licences are utilised in europe for flying biz-jets, cargo etc.
Promotion of U.K. training establishments is a good thing, as I believe they are dying a death anyway, *but* this should not be at the expense of warning people off and putting down every other countries training system and licence on this forum. Just because you all came through the good 'ol'trusty CAA system, does *not* mean that it is suitable for everybody.
A forum should be both informative and impartial and you have not achieved this. There is a large wedge driven between "JAA is better than FAA" and all that rubbish. You put down anybody who tries to express a point of view, and immediately the other 'usual' suspects pile in for the kill!
As a *promotion* tool for the U.K. aviation industry, you have achieved a degree of success. In doing so you have also alienated other forms of training.
Simply putting people down who question the system and your motives is not in your best interests.
I rest my case.
OK, well if it is not blatant 'advertising' of schools then maybe it is simply 'promotion' Capt PPrune comments "OATS are primarily in business to make a profit whilst providing a service to both the Airlines and Wannabes" then mentions OATS a further 3 times in his thread!
Aviation is a small world and maybe it's a case of you scratch my back. I am not saying that promotion of the UK aviation training industry is wrong but what I don't like is the fact that the moderators (wee weasley especially) seem to think that the JAA licence is a superior test of airmanship compared to all other flying licences worldwide.
It is up to the consumer where he wants to train, I am sure that U.S. airlines fly just as safely as U.K. and european airlines. It is the blatant snobbery of this forum towards other licences that I cannot stand.
'Other' licences are utilised in europe for flying biz-jets, cargo etc.
Promotion of U.K. training establishments is a good thing, as I believe they are dying a death anyway, *but* this should not be at the expense of warning people off and putting down every other countries training system and licence on this forum. Just because you all came through the good 'ol'trusty CAA system, does *not* mean that it is suitable for everybody.
A forum should be both informative and impartial and you have not achieved this. There is a large wedge driven between "JAA is better than FAA" and all that rubbish. You put down anybody who tries to express a point of view, and immediately the other 'usual' suspects pile in for the kill!
As a *promotion* tool for the U.K. aviation industry, you have achieved a degree of success. In doing so you have also alienated other forms of training.
Simply putting people down who question the system and your motives is not in your best interests.
I rest my case.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Polar, well said. I don't want to hijack this thread, the merits of OATS et al will be long debated after this, but to Danny and the moderators, cheers for running pprune. You're not gonna please everyone nor should you try (obviously).
Just now and again I reckon a bit of thanks could be in order, whether we agree with your views or not (no I'm not an ass kisser looking for a job with Virgin, nor related to any of 'em before anyone asks).
A site like this, free, with a spectrum of views as wide as you like...not bad !
cheers.
Just now and again I reckon a bit of thanks could be in order, whether we agree with your views or not (no I'm not an ass kisser looking for a job with Virgin, nor related to any of 'em before anyone asks).
A site like this, free, with a spectrum of views as wide as you like...not bad !
cheers.
Join Date: Dec 1997
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CB/US Lawyer (I believe you are one and the same),
you obviously have no idea of the definitions of libel (written defamation) or slander (spoken defamation)! And some examples might give your case some much-needed credibility.....
In fact, your implication that we are somehow in thrall to the UK FTOs is itself libellous. Do you really want to go down that road? Perhaps Danny should warn his lawyer!
The fact is that this forum exists primarily for UK Wannabes undertaking the JAA licences to obtain paid employment in the JAA-administered area. The merits or otherwise of the FAA/Australian/Japanese/whoever licences are irrelevant if you can't get a job here with them. The costs of converting a non-JAA licence to a JAA one make them a non-starter for our people. Yes, there are a few Wannabes with dual-nationalities who can usefully obtain an alternative ATPL and work elsewhere, but they are in the tiny minority. So what would you rather we do? Promote FAA licences and then hold our hands up saying 'not my fault, guv' when you discover you've wasted your money and can't get a job? Come on, what use would that be to the 99% here who want to work in Europe? Don't forget there are other websites that deal with their own areas; we are not experts on those other systems, and would be out of our depth advising a (say) US citizen on the specifics of how to progress to a job with a US major.
You complain about Danny mentioning OATS three times in his post? Well, hello? This thread is about OATS' new course! Methinks you just feel the need to rail against authority (ie the moderators) and you forgot to engage your brain first. Or had you just returned from the pub?
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
you obviously have no idea of the definitions of libel (written defamation) or slander (spoken defamation)! And some examples might give your case some much-needed credibility.....
In fact, your implication that we are somehow in thrall to the UK FTOs is itself libellous. Do you really want to go down that road? Perhaps Danny should warn his lawyer!
The fact is that this forum exists primarily for UK Wannabes undertaking the JAA licences to obtain paid employment in the JAA-administered area. The merits or otherwise of the FAA/Australian/Japanese/whoever licences are irrelevant if you can't get a job here with them. The costs of converting a non-JAA licence to a JAA one make them a non-starter for our people. Yes, there are a few Wannabes with dual-nationalities who can usefully obtain an alternative ATPL and work elsewhere, but they are in the tiny minority. So what would you rather we do? Promote FAA licences and then hold our hands up saying 'not my fault, guv' when you discover you've wasted your money and can't get a job? Come on, what use would that be to the 99% here who want to work in Europe? Don't forget there are other websites that deal with their own areas; we are not experts on those other systems, and would be out of our depth advising a (say) US citizen on the specifics of how to progress to a job with a US major.
You complain about Danny mentioning OATS three times in his post? Well, hello? This thread is about OATS' new course! Methinks you just feel the need to rail against authority (ie the moderators) and you forgot to engage your brain first. Or had you just returned from the pub?
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Scroggs, don't bother wasting your time with this guy. He had an arsehole transplant and the arsehole rejected him!
Anyone with more than one active brain cell can read this thread and realise that this guy knows nothing about which he likes to preach. As you state, the thread is about OATS and their course. The fact that it gets mentioned is inevitible. As for his alter ego even mentioning the words 'libel' and 'FAA' in the same sentence show how really ignorant he really is as you cant libel an organisation.
Sufficce it to be known that this thread is about the problems facing those people who want to get UK professional licences and jobs in the UK with UK Airlines. If someone can't grasp that simple fact from the direction of this thread then don't bother wasting your time trying to explain it to them.
FWIW, I actually did my FAA CPL before I did my UK licence and I do agree that it is easier and cheaper to do an FAA licence. I just thought it would be worthwhile doing it that way instead of just building hours. The FAA licence is not worth the paper it is written on if you want a job with a UK airline so we all have to jump through the hoops set up by our glorious Campaign Against Aviation. I'm not syaing one is beter than the other just that that is the way it is and until enough people get of their backsides and try to do something about it it will always be that way.
As this thread is getting close to the 100 replies mark anyway I'll have the satisfaction of having the last word and then archive the thread for posterity. "OATS, OATS, OATS OATS, OATS... CabAir (for balance of course) and PanAm (for international relations)"
There, that feels much better thank you!
Oh, and before I forget, the FAA is nasty and dangerous to small furry animals. Now go sue me!
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]
Anyone with more than one active brain cell can read this thread and realise that this guy knows nothing about which he likes to preach. As you state, the thread is about OATS and their course. The fact that it gets mentioned is inevitible. As for his alter ego even mentioning the words 'libel' and 'FAA' in the same sentence show how really ignorant he really is as you cant libel an organisation.
Sufficce it to be known that this thread is about the problems facing those people who want to get UK professional licences and jobs in the UK with UK Airlines. If someone can't grasp that simple fact from the direction of this thread then don't bother wasting your time trying to explain it to them.
FWIW, I actually did my FAA CPL before I did my UK licence and I do agree that it is easier and cheaper to do an FAA licence. I just thought it would be worthwhile doing it that way instead of just building hours. The FAA licence is not worth the paper it is written on if you want a job with a UK airline so we all have to jump through the hoops set up by our glorious Campaign Against Aviation. I'm not syaing one is beter than the other just that that is the way it is and until enough people get of their backsides and try to do something about it it will always be that way.
As this thread is getting close to the 100 replies mark anyway I'll have the satisfaction of having the last word and then archive the thread for posterity. "OATS, OATS, OATS OATS, OATS... CabAir (for balance of course) and PanAm (for international relations)"
There, that feels much better thank you!
Oh, and before I forget, the FAA is nasty and dangerous to small furry animals. Now go sue me!
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]
