The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???

[englishal]

WWW,. .. .You're missing the point...Although you paid 16k for your ATPL, I can't afford the 60k or so to go to Oxford. Also, by banning training in the US, rather than people 'returning home' to do their licences, many people will say ****** it, and the exact opposite will happen, less people will fly in the UK, less (more expensive) clubs and the like..... .. .I would like to fly more in the UK, but the $8,000 I spent in the states last year got me 80 hours, an IR and a multi rating. The UK can't compete. After all we don't all drive British cars just to support the ailing British car industry do we?. .. .Maybe we should all write to our MPs and ask the government to elliminate fuel tax on AVGAS....just like 'red diesel' for boats, which costs less than 20p litre......?. .. .Anyway, its been a good debate, don't think this has been a personnal attack, each is entitled to their views. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet.... .. .Cheers. .EA

[theRolfe2]

the PPL is an indulgence that occurred many years ago when the number were low.. .. .What it comes down to is that you believe that PPL students exist so that career pilots such of yourself can build time. . .. .If PPL students train in a different jurisdiction then people like yourself will have a harder time finding students to use to build hours. . .. .But why should I care? I don't want a career in aviation and I don't see why I should subsidise people like yourself as you claw your way to the top. If I can get a better product by going to Florida then why shouldn't I? . .. .As a consumer my needs come before those of the vendors. . .. .It's very unlikely that there will be a 'real' shortage of ATP pilots in the UK or anywhere else for that matter in the foreseeable future. When airlines can charge fees for sending in a CV it's a sign that supply vastly exceeds demand.. .. .The Uk flight training industry has no 'right' to exist any more than Scragil's miners had 'rights' to jobs. . .. .Yes it does - as a strategic asset to UK Plc. . .. .Nothing has a 'right' to exist. Nobody's job is guaranteed. Such guarantees always come at somebody else's expense. Your JAA-ensured 'right' to exist as a flight instructor is at the expense of any private individual who wants a licence. If flight training is a strategic asset then why isn't it getting strategic support from the government? . .. .It's clear to me that your mind is closed on this subject. I wish I could go through life with your absolute self-confidence and certainty. It must be wonderful 'never forgetting anything' and being right all the time... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .theRolfe

[theRolfe2]

They do subsidise GA with, for example, huge ex-mil airfields released to GA users at peppercorn rents. They also have lower taxation on all aspects of the business.. .. .The ex-mil airfields are usually located 50 miles from anywhere and if located on the west coast will have no water rights. The location and the lack of water make them useless for housing, factories or anything else lucrative. The feds hand them over to the county they are located in. If the county can develop them they will. Hamilton (near San Francisco) is closed for good. Castle AFB (middle of nowhere) is still a GA field. . .. .My point being that vast airfields are only given to GA when there is nothing else to do with them. Stop seeing all this as anti-European subsidies...... .. .theRolfe

[Sensible]

Quote from WWW's edit:. .. .--------------------------------------------------. .What is so amazing about American flying? Same airplanes same air.. .--------------------------------------------------. .. .If you don't try it then you won't know and therefore your comments on USA flying are unqualified. . .. .I'm afraid that GA in blighty is a pretty miserable set up in comparison. Without major changes to UK aviation led by government incentives then GA will continue to decline with the resulting closure of GA airfields and increasing duty on fuel!. .. .Some of us actually fly for just fun and with better facilities and cheaper flying in the USA, I just cannot justify flying in the UK.. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 18:11: Message edited by: Sensible ]</small>

[slim_slag]

My point being that vast airfields are only given to GA when there is nothing else to do with them. . .. .I'm sitting in Phoenix right now with my Termimal Chart open. There is a mega-airport (KPHX) and eight class D airports, one of which is ex mil - Williams Gateway, KIWA.. .. .This ex-mil airport is heavily used by GA, it's got an ILS and a two mile long, 150ft wide runway which even the blindest primary students cannot miss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . But it was turned over for civilian use with the aim of being a Part 121 scheduled airline reliever airport for PHX. No intent to subsidise GA here, it was an attempt to take traffic away from PHX and revitalise the local economy after the USAF left.. .. .WWW, I think you post some good stuff here for the wannabees, I think your insider posts on the job market are great. Keep up the good work. However if you state an opinion as fact you have to back it up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> You are a lofty moderator, and you have to do better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Re protectionism and professoinal flying jobs. I believe it's unfortunate that both the EU and the US don't 'cross hire' for jet jobs, but the US has rules in place to allow such a thing which are far more reasonable than the EU does. . .. .If there was to ever be a shortage of pilots in the US then the laws are already in place to allow EU pilots to get work authorisation. Because of a flourishing, cheap, availiable and sensibly regulated GA industry the US has never had to do that. They hire Yanks first, as they should. The US has also attempted to allow cross recognition of JAA/FAA ATPs. It was the JAA who screwed that one up. The US will give you, on the spot, an FAA PP-ASEL temporary certificat on production of your JAA-PPL. Permanent certificate will arrive in the mail - FREE OF CHARGE. That is not the case the other way around.. .. .Personally I think an hour in the US is worth an hour in the UK and definitely not less. I can see that in the real world people will protect their jobs and industries, but it's an obsolete concept. There are instances where the UK is on the right track, you would call it an historical anomoly which you hope the French will correct. (Jesus, you speak higher of the French than the Yanks and hope they will sort out the Brits, then I look at your moniker, and it all makes sense <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> ). .. .Right now you can take your FAA ICAO ATP and 500 turbine hours in a multi crew plane and convert it to a CAA ATPL with minimum hassle. In this instance, I think it's reasonable for a country (the UK) to expect a 'foreigner' to pass the written exams and take a flight test. That's the sort of check and balance I'd expect. But for you to hope the French will say your hours in the USA don't count is nuts. Of course they count. The US is a very advanced country when it comes to aviation, it's a model for the world. Next thing the French will be saying is that hours don't count unless they are flown in an Air France seat. Will you be on the sidelines cheering?. .. .Of course even with your US passport and shiny new CAA ATPL you still have the work authorisation problem, but that is a different matter all together. Who knows, maybe the great day will come when the EU is short of pilots and has to hire these nasty Yanks with their second class FAA ATP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . Work authorisation is a totally different issue from mutual recognition of professional qualifications and training establishments.. .. .Cheers. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 18:31: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</small>

[rolling circle]

Desi - You clearly misintrepreted my earlier posts. I am not 'blaming' the UK CAA for anything, it is their pragmatic attitude that caused my (non-UK) employer to choose to seek approval for its TRTO through the UK, despite being based in mainland Europe. The point is that the inception of EASA will smother that pragmatism as all that is now 'requirements' will become 'regulations', introduced by majority voting of a predominantly anti-US European Union and enforced by law.. .. .You make the point that Germany is, let us say, unenamoured of the JAA and is, at the moment, resisting the implementation of JAR-FCL. There is no way of resisting EASA, short of leaving the EU. All EU member states will be regulated by EASA and, given the overwhelming protectionist nature of the membership, we are likely to see an end to overseas training.. .. .Make no mistake, there will be harmonisation of aviation law within the EU, just as there is harmonisation of law in almost every other field. We are well down the road to a United States of Europe with all power centralised in the European Commission. Already the UK has lost control over more than half of its legislation, the loss of the Air Navigation Act will hardly be noticed.. .. .I have no axe to grind about US training, I hold a FAA ATPL, CFI, CFII and have a thousand or so hours of dual given in the US. There are pros and cons to training pilots in the US who are going to spend most of their careers in European Airspace, particularly when they are taught by inexperienced instructors who have no idea what European flying is like. However, there are good and bad in all areas of aviation and there are plenty of FIs in Europe who I would not trust to open a jar of pickles.. .. .It was a 'wait and see' attitude that let a fundamentally flawed JAR-FCL1 in, the danger is that too many people will have the same attitude to EASA - until it's too late. EASA is, potentially, all the worst parts of JAR-FCL with teeth and claws!

[Capt.Emerald]

This debate all seems intriguing. I, for one, would like to thank Desi Pilot for posting his letter from the CAA. I am also glad the CAA has relaxed it's stringent requirements and grandfathered us existing instructors into it's domain. It does make me feel better that they have shown some faith in the current FTO's and the U.S. instructors. However, I do have some further questions that someone on this thread could possibly answer. 1)This letter seems to be directed to approved FTO's, not registered FTO's, and to my knowledge there are only two in the U.S. Am I reading this correctly? 2)What is the difference between a registered and approved FTO? 3)Will I be grandfathered in and be able to instruct at an approved FTO, being that the FTO I currently instruct at is going out of business? 4)The most important question of all: Does anyone know of any approved JAA schools hiring grandfather instructors? Thank you in advance, any help will be greatly appreciated.

[QUERY]

This topic has produced plenty of.... from the usual people. . .. .JAA PPL courses in the U.S.A. are still being advertised, by the approved schools, so the answer to the question is, obviously, NO.. .Also, there is no evidence of higher prices.. .. .Yes, there have been some incredibly interesting (yawn) changes but, as approved schools all comply, there is no problem for students. In practice, the changes make JAA PPL training even more attractive than in UK, where schools only have to be registered facilities and are not even inspected by the CAA. . .. .O.K. it 'might' end if/when/depending on etc. but there might be life on Mars or you might win the National Lottery jackpot.. .. .I will not react to the morons and racists but, as there are genuine and intelligent people who have been confused or misled, these further points could assist:. .-There is no significant subsidy to GA in the USA and the price of AVGAS, though relatively low, is much higher than the price of autogas there. The actual cost problem is just typical 'rip-off' Britain (excessive taxes, profit margins etc.). .-Apart from lower costs, the other main factor is weather which allows better utilisation. This assists students to progress and instructors to earn well. This natural advantage is not restricted to Florida so the South of Spain is another location for 'British' training.. .-I recall that all the ICAO stuff came about because sensible countries wanted similar standards but realised that aviation would not progress if it was vulnerable to petty and protectionist measures based on 'nationality' of aircraft, crew, examiners, instruction and training. There is mutual recognition so FAA-rated Hank (the Yank) can land an American Boeing at Cardiff and, equally, JAA-rated **** (the Welshman) can land a British Airbus at Boston. . .-Also and despite the EU, NAFTA etc. GATT guarantees free trade. There are still serious trade 'wars' but I doubt that EU and USA will want one about protection for poxy PPL's !

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

WWW,. .. .As one of the US Based Fight School owners you referenced, I thought I would add a few comments to this thread.. .. .1) Will European Flight Training continue in the U.S.? At the moment that is a Yes.. .. .2) Will the training have to change? Someday it might but right now it is business as usual.. .. .Now that the original question has been answered lets go to the tangents.. .. .Why do people train in the U.S.? Cost, Weather and Consistency.. .. .Should the J.A.A. kill all training outside of a J.A.A. member country? No.. .. .Doing so will hurt GA in the U.K., not help it. NAC is only one school;we train over 300 pilots a year. These pilots do not all stay here in Naples and just fly with us but go home to their homelands to fly at their local clubs and schools. Many of them would not have learned to fly at all if they had not come to the U.S to train. It is not all money; a good percentage do not have the time to wait on the weather. They prefer to complete in a few weeks.. .. .Although the flying may start outside of the UK, in the longrun the homeland aviation industry does benefit.. .. .Happy Flying,. .. .Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.. .Naples Air Center, Inc.

[DesiPilot]

Oh Boy, all this time I thought us pilots were bunch of friendly people. All we wanted to do was pass on the flying bug to anyone and everyone who came in contact with us.. .This FAA, JAA, IAA, EASA, DGAC, SAA, DGCA whatever you call it has taken the fun out of it or they are in process of doing it.. .. .Someone please save flying be it in UK, EU or anywhere else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[jmore]

It is blatently obvious that there are some amongst us who are either so wealthy that the cost of GA at home in the Uk is of no importance to them,or,perhaps they are content flying from one grotty little hovel to another and receiving little or nothing in return for the vast sums outlayed to do so.. . Flying light aircraft in the states is truly a pleasure to be embraced by all,and certainly the FAA does everything within its power to let that happen,i have done a reasonable amount of flying at home both with the air cadets and privately but none of it matches the beauty or experience gained by punching through the marine layer on the californian coast for an ifr hop to los angeles international in a pa28 (heathrow eat your heart out) or perhaps even landing at las vegas international and having the red carpet put out for you in your lowly 172 just the same as the crew of the lears and bbj's parked next to you-the truth is for GA to regain its appeal in the UK more freedom must be given to its pilots to fly where they want not where they are told they can.However the real underlying issue is that a lot of us that just want to enjoy our flying are put off by the snobbery of those involved in the UK general aviation sector!My advice? simply get on one of those big planes come here and try it -you will undoubtly fall in love with the system.

[lock wire]

WWW: I have been mildly amused at some of your comments, re: flight training in the US, but I have a question for you:. .. .As I have been mildly amused by your efforts to justify an inequitable system. .. .This is a scenario that arises on occassion (albeit rarely). . .. .Your scenario might apply to perhaps half a dozen people a year.. .. .An individual in the UK (hard working and successful, but with relatively limited spare time available) wishes to fly the airways in IMC in his own aircraft, or a rented aircraft--he is indifferent where that aircraft is registered--but needs something physically based in the UK, so that he may fly from his home to offices and business meetings that may be on the Continent, or further afield. For arguments sake, let's assume he has a JAR-FCL SE PPL / Night with only a 150 hours. . .. .So he has very little flying experience and wants to go fly intenation IFR flights in a single to get to important meetings on business. I would advise him not to so stupid. He'll end up killing himself or someone else. Even if he doesn't he will find himself so hassled by ice, minima and slot restrictions that it will be neither a pleasure nor a convenience to fly himself around on business.. .. .His initial concern is that he needs a full IR added to his licence.. .. .The IMC rating would be a better option and forget the airways and their charges. Forget the idea of doing international airway flying in your own single for business.. .. .The guy working the desk at his local flying club, a PPL with 80 hours TT wearing a four gold bars on each shoulder and peppered with spots,. .. .Ooh funny that I never saw anyone wearing such stripes at my local school. Indeed I never wore a single stripe when I was a JAA Approved FI teaching CPL IR courses to airline cadets in Jerez. In a flight training sortie I fail to see how either of you could get confused about the chain of command therefore I always considered stripes superfluous. As do the vast majority of FI's. And I suppose nobody in the US is instructing in order to build hours? No? COME OFF IT! . .. .Under JAA there is a requirement for 150hrs of groundschool for an FI rating. There is then a bi-annual renewal requirement involving flight checks, attendance at seminar and hours flown requirement. Because airlines sponsor cadets they get to dictate to large FTO's that their instructors must be highly qualified, experienced and therefore well remunerated. There is now in place therefore a reasonable professional structure in place in JAA whereby instructors are less likely to be hours builders and more likely to be career instructors. So lets drop the childish stereotypes.. .. . tells him that it's not possible as he has a JAR-FCL PPL, yet the guy in our scenario insists that his best friend has only an ME PPL / IR and he flys his King Air (it's a 200) when he wants, and on the airways and through the clouds. For the moment let's disregard insurance requirements.. .. .Lets not disregard insurance requirements. Any wealthy individual will have significant Life Insurance. It will almost certinaly stop him from flying as you describe.. .. .Disregarding the apparent prejudice you have for foreign licences for the moment, . .. .Nothing wrong with foreign licences. Its Yanks training EU nationals for EU liceneses in FAA aircraft that I can't fly in a country where I am not allowed to work that irks me and all JAA instructors.. .. .and on the assumption that as a professional pilot you feel obliged to offer him the fairest and most impartial advice as he's a keen aviator, what would your advice to him be?. .. .As stated above. The obstacles are too great. The industry/CAA does not really want him to do what he is thinking of and therefore its made very expensive. If he wants to get to the continent on business then take a sheduled service. It will be cheaper even if he flies business class. It will be far more reliable operating a Jet capable of Cat3a/b/c. It will be infinitely safer. He won't have to worry about Eurocontrol, slot restrictions, infringing noise abatement profiles, diverting to somewhere unexpected, onerous customs requirements and inspections at each end etc. etc. If he needs the flexibility of going to local airfields then use the Charter Air Taxi operators who are professional and not amateur at doing what he seeks to do.. .. .As a further consideration, let's assume that the potential customer isn't interested in the elitist 'Yacht Club' attitude;. .. .I have no idea what you mean by this. There are some charming clubs and schools in the UK you know. I never ever attacked US flight schools for the facilities and atmosphere they offered. Why do you try to do this? Shall I show you the dozens of emails about O***** Flight Training I have received over the years? Shall I? The horror stories about shoddy aircraft, rip off advertising, diss-interested staff and a disgusting level of customer service.... .. . he's also curious to know why his friend's aircraft is not on the G register, but clearly will not be won over by an arrogant and condescending attitude. . .. .Well presumably its on an N register.. .. .Now, it's apparant that he's got some money to spend, and you're obviously wanting to promote the UK GA scene and encourage him to invest in that industry. Again, what would your well-considered advice be to him???. .. .As above.. .. .Cheers, WWW. . . . <small>[ 30 March 2002, 11:14: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[jmore]

that was a nice trip in that king wasnt it lock!

[Julian]

At last we have finally got it out of WWW after god knows how many attempts of asking that he has NEVER flown in the US....what a surprise..ho hum..!

I have even challenged him to stop making sweeping comments about US flight schools and name and shame the bad ones, he seems to at last have named....err....one!. In fact one well known US flight school bailed out students when a UK school went bust. Did any UK schools come forward with a similar offer we werent aware of?

WWW is under the impression that every person who gets into an aircraft wants to become an FI and finally sit in the right hand seat with the big boys! Errrr.....nope...wrong again WWW - some of us do it because we actually enjoy flying so moaning about the fact that their wont be any students when we are FIs because they are all in the US is b@ll@cks!

If a guy only flys 6 hours a year, as you state, then he is hardly worth bothering about in your great 'fund the FIs debate' - not to mention not current

Julian.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Julian. I would have thought anyone would have summised that I have never set foot in the US as I have never referred to having done so in 5 years here. I've stated the fact many times in fact.

You can challenge me to whatever you like. I challenge you to inform us of your qualifications regards knowledge of flight training.

I am not going to name and shame any schools as I could be sued for doing so.

I am not under the impression that everyone who flies wants to become a FI. However on the PPRUNE Wannabes forum it is fair to assume the audience are primarily interested in some form of remunerated flying career in JAA land. This being the case it is entirely legitimate to expose a view about a career rung which is stepped upon by over 40% of self funded pilots.

"Fund the FI's" is not a debate. The issue is that Pounds Sterling are being spent to pay US Dollars to US Instructors to fly FAA aircraft for JAA licenses. A discrepency which will be resolved at the will of the bulk of JAA member states. The vast majority of US PPL instructors are also building hours rather than being career instructors. To say otherwise is to lie.

Not to say that this is a bad thing. As a PPL instructor building hours I cost you £10 an hour. As a CPL IR instructor on a contract and a salary a week later I cost you £60 an hour. Same person saying mostly the same thing... Hour building subsidisies PPL courses in the final analysis.

Julian you do - once again - appear awfully agitated in your postings. Is it impossible for two people to have two differing but reasoned views on a complex issue?

Cheers,

WWW

[Julian]

WWW, You have never actually admitted it until now although a lot of users of this board have asssumed you have never been there. Training in the US does bring money into the UK GA industry although it may not be directly into the pockets of FIs, although having said that doesnt mean they will not undertake a course in the UK in the future. You also forget that there a number of N regs floating around, one down the road from me, avaliable for hire.

It is not only in this forum you have criticised US flying but also in others such as 'private', launching into your views on a system you know nothing about - recent example of discussion on WXBRIEF was a classic. How can you comment on something you havent used?

If you dont name and shame why did you name O****** FT?

I am an end user of flying schools and aircraft rental as I have always said - and as would be apparent if you looked at my profile - look no FI rating! I do however fly regulary in the UK and US hence feel able to comment. I would not however go around criticising say SA, Australia, etc as I havent flown there.

So the answer is not agitated but find it hard to understand how you can pass comments on various areas of something you know nothing about, that of flying in the US.

Interesting your rates go up, the training centre I use charges $35/HR no matter what rating.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Admitted? You are making something innocuous sound dodgy. What is there to 'admit'? I have recommended to many Wannabes over the years to consider going to the US for a PPL and hours building package. I have said so in countless threads. It is one of a range of complex recommendations one can make - dependent usually on personal circumstance.

That is not to contradict my belief that the practice of JAA training in non-JAA member states should be disallowed.

IF I were the ranting-anti-US-only-train-in-Britain maniac whose only aim was to defend his FI job - THEN how do you explain the countless times I have highlighted the possibility of PPL + 100hrs in the USA? Plenty of people have emailed with me and I have sent them heading towards Britannia or Naples..

You seem to think that because I have not flown in the US I cannot comment about it.

I did not actually do so.

I stuck to the thread which was discussing JAA regulatory training requirements.

Most of the PPRuNe hierarchy did PPLs and hours in the US. Many of my friends did. Many of my work colleagues when working as a FI did. Some of my current work colleagues did. I have no axe to grind or dislike of Americans, American Schools or the FAA. Please do not suggest that I do.

We are not talking about "flying in the US". They have the same aircraft, air and laws of Physics as us after all. We are talking about Training regulations. Nothing more emotive.

WWW

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

WWW,

I would like to offer you a free flight at Naples Air Center. Give you a chance to see how we operate.

I must warn you though, if you take me up on the offer, you might not enjoy flying in the U.K. after flying to the Keys or Bahamas. :o)

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Richard thank you. I might just take you up on that, Miss Welshman is nagging for a US Fly Drive holiday later in the year and I need reasons for going places.

I am sure the flying is great and I have heard nothing but praise for your school. Keep up the good work.

WWW

[sennadog]

I'd just like to step in here and heavily criticise EVERYTHING about American aviation. I can't say enough BAD things about it as I'd run out of space!

Richard - could I also have some free flights please?