The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???

[Julian]

JAA syllabus in a JAA aproved school OK, but why a JAA country WWW? Are you going to therefore advocate shutting down any UK based schools that offer FAA training? If done properly then what is the problem with training Stateside?. .. .GA in the UK is still expensive compared to abroad and I fail to see how the NPPL can claim to make flying affordable except in prehaps the initial licence issue - which we all know will take more than the minimums in the average case. It would be interesting to see if students dont convert to a full PPL and then go Stateside to hour build anyway! Or just get the NPPL, become disillusioned and jack it all in!!!!. .. .Julian.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There are no schools offering FAA in the UK (well there are two tiny ones).. .. .I advocate protectionism of the UK GA Flight Training market within the boundaries of JAA member states.. .. .JAA and the EU is supposedly a trading block. The USA uses tax incentives on fuel and subsidy of GA to give its flight training a competitive advantage. This costs jobs in the UK flight training industry and undermines the development and expansion of UK (or JAA) GA flight training.. .. .Its all very well saving a few quid on your PPL course by going to the States but then you shouldn't cry about their being no Flying Instructors jobs for you in this country once you have that coveted CPL.. .. .People are always saying that GA is dying in this country. To right. Because America is bleeding it dry. I am all for fair competition between member states within JAA.. .. .WWW

[rolling circle]

Don't forget that the only reason that there is any JAA training in the USA (except for integrated ATP training by OAT, Lufthansa, et al) is because the UK government has elected to ignore JARs and the fact that they are able to since JARs are Requirements and not Regulations. After much lobbying, the JAR Committee reluctantly agreed to the NPA-14 proposal to allow JAA PPL training to take place outside of JAA Member States but all other modular training is still approved only by the UK and is not recognised as valid by other Member States.. .. .The big change on the horizon is, of course, EASA which will be a horse of a quite different colour. Whereas the Joint Aviation Requirements did not automatically become enforceable in law, EASA's regulations will be. Not only that, but they will be enshrined in European law which, as has been proved so recently, now takes absolute precedence over UK national law. The UK will, therefore, lose all control over its aviation law and will be unable to exercise its liberal attitude to 'overseas' training. European law will be determined by a majority vote of EU states, who are universally opposed to such training.. .. .The implications are immense - not only is it likely to become illegal to carry out JAA training in the USA, the current UK practice of allowing UK national ATPL credits to be carried forward for JAA ATPL issue (under an arguable interpretation of EC Directive 91/670/EEC) is also under threat.. .. .In short, don't complain too much about the current requirements - these are the good times!

[slim_slag]

www . .. .I advocate protectionism of the UK GA Flight Training market within the boundaries of JAA member states. . .. .This makes no sense. Anyway, there are JAA states which can undercut the UK, do you want to stop Eastern countries joining JAA?. .. .It makes perfect sense as the EU is a trading block as is the NAFTA. Tarrifs and barriers exist between them on everything you can think of apart from PPL training. I am happy for Eastern bloc countries to join JAA and compete. Because I as a Brit JAA license holder have the right to go there and work for their successful school. A right I do not have in Florida. Spain and Italy with lower fuel taxes and better weather should be leaders in Flight training in JAA. Perhaps the Northern countries can compete with a better experience pool or infrastructure. Who knows? Let the free market decide. Many of my colleagues in Jerez had worked in the US teaching people. They were all kicked out after 2 years as their permits expired.... .. .The USA uses tax incentives on fuel and subsidy of GA to give its flight training a competitive advantage. . .. .You don't understand how the US works. They don't subsidise GA and don't look at GA flight training as something to compete with JAA on. In general the US doesn't give a damn about JAA, most people haven't even heard of it. Most Yanks don't even know we have airlines in Europe!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Never said they do give a damn. They do subsidise GA with, for example, huge ex-mil airfields released to GA users at peppercorn rents. They also have lower taxation on all aspects of the business.. .. .GA in the US is a totally different kettle of fish to the UK. You should try it out.. .. .I understand that US federal taxes on avgas approximate to the cost of providing services to GA aircraft. I shall try to find a link.. .. .I may well try it out somtime thanks.. .. .Because America is bleeding it dry . .. .Bollox. The US is not bleeding GA dry, the UK goverment with it's taxation policies and the regulatory bodies are. The US provides an opportunity for wanabees to get some really good experience in a GA friendly country at a decent price. Why would you want to prevent a young impoverished kid from being able to log that?. .. .I want to stop that impoverished kid from denying himself a first job as a flying instructor in a country that will not throw him out as a foreigner after two years. The EU has higher taxes and higher public spending than the US. This is a democratic political decision. Just like I dislike economic migrants coming to this country to take advantage of the welfare state, so I dislike another country not in our polticial or economic union, undercutting our jobs. Steel industry anyone!? . .. .The only protectionism I can see here is that of established JAA airmen who will undoubtably have a more secure job if there are no wannabees coming up through the ranks because they cannot afford to train anymore.. .. .Hmm, with the schools full of students and hundreds and hundreds unemployed low time pilots in the UK alone I don't think there is a Masterplan to arrange a choke on the labour supply. I doubt the maximum £2000 saving on a US PPL will see the numbers entering the profession slump!. .. .All I hear is a US citizen trying to protect his lucrative supply of EU professiona pilot training. The NPPL will be as cheap as a US PPL for the pleasure flyer.. .. .Cheers, WWW. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 15:25: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[msrogerson]

S_S I agree entirely. People seem to neglect the fact that if there are more people with licences in their hand, there are more people that can fly. . .Surely this can't be bad for GA, even if the initial training is done abroad.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .The NPPL addresses the problems for those just wishing to be a pleasure flyer. Millions of pounds a year is spent in Florida rather than this country by Brits on flying training. That money would stimulate investment in schools, clubs, aircraft and personnel if it were to be redirected. Which is what I advocate.. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 15:30: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[theRolfe2]

I advocate protectionism of the UK GA Flight Training market within the boundaries of JAA member states.. .. .JAA and the EU is supposedly a trading block. The USA uses tax incentives on fuel and subsidy of GA to give its flight training a competitive advantage. This costs jobs in the UK flight training industry and undermines the development and expansion of UK (JAA) GA flight training.. .. .What 'tax incentives' would those be? The US doesn't levy the same levels of taxation on hydrocarbon fuels that europe does. That's not the same as a tax incentive. . .. .What else would you call it!?. .. .Flight training in the US undountably benefits from the lack of user fees but this is a nationwide thing - if it were a conspiracy to undermine european flight training why are the feds paying to support airfields in North Dakota where there is almost no foreign flight training?. .. .[i]So thats subsidy then[/b]. .. . I could also argue that free healthcare in Europe subsidises european flight training as US residents pay $200-$300 a month in healthcare premiums.. .. .And UK citizens spend $200 - $300 a month in healthcare premiums called National Insurance. Which pays for a universal health care free at the point of use.. .. .The Uk flight training industry has no 'right' to exist any more than Scragil's miners had 'rights' to jobs. . .. .Yes it does - as a strategic asset to UK Plc. If we let the US dominate all training and then they closed their border to all pilots as per Sept11th then they could choke of the supply of pilots and ground EU aviation.. .. .It's continued existance is dependant on offering a product people want at a price they are prepared to pay. It doesn't appear to be doing this at the PPL level. . .. .Yes. Within the common trading bloc and political bloc that we are a member of i.e. JAA and EU. We are not in NAFTA.. .. .You seem to have adopted the position that it's an integral part of British society and that those awful americans are seeking to undermine it. It's not the fault of the US that british weather sucks, fuel is overpriced, the JAA is complicated and confusing and that it takes an incredibly long time to get an entry level licence in the UK.. .. .I don't blame American schools and instructors at all. They have lower costs and therefore lower prices and therefore nick our customers. If we were in NAFTA then fine. But we aren't, we are in the EU. If we have to work under EU harmonised regs and employment practices we should not be expected to compete with the US.. .. .I'm amazed that someone such as yourself who is supposed to like aviation can be so happy at the thought of JAA training being 'stamped out' overseas.. .. .It will simply return home, my local field will become busier and GA in the UK/JAA will expand.. .. .Don't think that all the people who now go to Florida will now do their training in the the UK so that another generation of Wee Weasley Welshmen can build time and get jobs as first officers. . .. .The NPPL will be cheaper so that the pleasure flyers will won't need Florida prices. The extra £1,500 it will cost a professional on the bottom rung will not be enough to exclude anyone. The JAA integrated ATPL courses are actually cheaper than the old 509 system so the extra cost is already taken care of if one take a perspective over the last decade. Personally I think it better if someone - modular or integrated - trains with the same organisation/instructor from zero to IR.. .. .Some of them will opt to train in the UK but a lot will just not bother or get FAA licences and find an N registered plane to fly. The purpose of flight training is to train people who want to fly, not employ flight instructors. You seem to forget that every now and then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> .. .. .Fine, if they want to get FAA licenses and fly FAA planes then thats up to them. I can't teach that or fly those anyway so its no lose to me. If they wish to convert to JAA then I will do them a conversion. They get no concession so its again no loss to me. Its just more cost for them. Todays student PPL's are tomorrows Flying Instructors. I rarely forget anything - not least of all that I voluntarily taught people to fly in my spare time for no fee for many years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Has it ever occured to you that if Europe practised the level of protectionism that you appear to favour your employer would not have been able to afford 737's (import tariffs of those evil American Airplanes!) and would have to have gone to the sole european supplier - Airbus - for their airplanes? Airbus could charge *whatever they wanted*. Your job might not exist. Be careful what you wish for.... .. .A somewhat tangental analysis. Its not favouritism its fair trade. If you want to fly JAA licensed aircraft on a JAA license you should train within the JAA. Its a simple proposition and the PPL is an indulgence that occurred many years ago when the number were low. Its now a big business and our fellow member states are pressing us to close the loophole. The French have a strong case and they will get it stamped out.. .. .theRolfe. .. .[WWW]. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 16:00: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[englishal]

Hmm, seems like some sour grapes amongst the 'established' airmen if you ask me. Just because you spent 60k on your 'frozen' ATPL, why should other, some may say brighter, people be disadvantaged in the same way?. .. .That can't be me you are talking about as my ATPL cost me £16,500. I am not talking about the past. It might have been very sensible for people to go to the US and get a PPL Night and Hour Build. Not disputing that. Its not the same thing to say that you want this unfair anomaly of international aviation regulation closed. As it will be if the French have their way. Which will be good for UK GA and for Wannabes trying to find work as a FI.. .. .Beagle, there is no need to join a flying club in the UK to do the JAR ground exams. There is a guy in Bournemouth who does them for around 300 quid for the lot in a few days. US Flying clubs offer these exams as part of the course, so will adjust their costs accordingly. Secondly, FAA Lazergrade exams will set you back about $75, and an FAA PPL skills test around $150, so at the end of the day, all people will do is go to the US, train for the FAA PPL, and the day FAA skill test is passed, do the JAA skill test with a JAA examiner (as you are given your FAA licence straight away, unlike the uk), and hey presto, two licences for little more than it would currently cost for the JAA licence.. .. .But who wants 2 licenses? Why not just save the airfare and accomodation and use the airfield down the road? Most students who are bright enough to go on to the ATPL and a career can pass the JAA PPL exams with nothing more than a second hand set of Trevor Thom books, a PPL confuser book of questions, a few questions to their FI and £10 per paper at their local school (its what mine charged).. .. .Secondly, FAA BFR is no big deal. Just need an hour with an FAA instructor, in any aircraft, in any country. I'm sure a few of those are available in the UK who will be happy to do it for the price of a few beers....in fact I know of quite a few. And if your FAA licence is 'invalid' due to lack of BFR in two years, again, all you need is a check flight with an instructor to re-validate.. .. .WWW, in fact there are FAA schools in the UK (and Europe), and in fact I did my FAA IR ground exams with one. You can do the FAA GFT, BFR, IRC, etc etc you only have to look in the back of Pilot of Flyer to see people offering FAA ratings in the UK....although you will pay UK prices for the aircraft hire. . .. .Yes I suppose there are. They must employ, ooo, all of six instructors between them.. .. .By the way, as you don't seem to have flown in the US before, maybe you should try it, you never know, you may enjoy it.. .. .I am sure I would. Lots of my friends who have done it say its a great place to fly. But thats not the discussion. The discussion is about the rather dry field that is regulation of flight training. Perhaps the best deal for everyone would be for JAA and FAA to combine and extend common rights of abode and work to all EU and US citizens. That way I could quite happily teach any one of half a billion people to fly in any one of 17 countries.. .. .WWW. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 16:12: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[DesiPilot]

Well, everyone who is planning to go outside EU to do their PPL can do so. The CAA has recently issued a letter to all the FTO's and registered facilities. All the instructors who are currently instructing are awarded "grandfather rights" and all the new instructors joining after March 31, 2002 will be required to undergo a standardisation training and a skill test with an examiner ( not necessarily FIE ). Here is the part of the letter:. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> ICAO FIs at overseas training locations:. . The requirements at Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300 and Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.300 have been adopted by PLD as being the minimum requirements for FTOs conducting training for professional licences with effect from 31 March 2002. We will treat this as the start date to commence training new ICAO FIs. There is no intention for all or part of such training to be introduced for FIs who were employed on JAR-FCL Flight Instructional duties at an overseas location approved and operating on or before 31 March 2002. They will be granted “grandfather rights” and we will assume that they have been “standardized” and have done an acceptable amount of FI time on JAR courses. However, after that date, the ICAO rated FI will require the minimum training in accordance with the reference to qualify him to instruct on a JAR-FCL CPL or IR course. I need hardly remind you that approved training organisations are subject to inspection, part of which you will be aware, involves sampling both Students and Instructors (this will include Grandfather FIs), so it is incumbent on you to update your records in good time.. . . .The UK has recently engaged JAA colleagues to agree on a proposal to amend parts of Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300 to allow for appropriate training and testing, as well as meeting the experience requirements of JAR-FCL 1.330. These proposals would require:. . . .For instruction for the CPL:. .· hold an ICAO CPL with FI rating. .· 500 hours total flying with 200 hours instructional experience;. .· undergo ground and flight training as appropriate; and. .· pass a skill test with an FIE(A).. . . .For instruction for the IR, in addition to the above:. .· 200 hours flight time under IFR;. .· the 5 hour course required by JAR-FCL 1.330(d)(2); and. .· pass a skill test with an FIE(A).. . . .These requirements add JAR-FCL ground and flight training considered necessary to the existing JAR-FCL 1.330 requirements for JAA instructors.. . . . For PPL instruction only, it is proposed that non-JAA instructors: . .· hold an ICAO CPL with FI rating;. .· meet the JAR-FCL 1.330(a) requirements of 15 hours flight-time on the relevant type or class of aeroplane;. .· undergo ground and flight training as determined by the Head of Training of the FTO; and. .· pass a skill test with an examiner designated by the Authority.. . . . . .The rationale is I think self evident and aimed at achieving a universal 200 hour Instructor entry level for commercial pilot training. It takes into account:. .. .· Standards of instructing, the flying syllabus and some basic exercises vary throughout the non-JAA States and the level of additional training to bring an FI up to a suitable level will depend on how great these differences are. Someone who is familiar with both systems (e.g. Head of Training) is best placed to determine what is required;. .· To ensure standardization and adequate levels of competence, the FI must demonstrate to an FIE or other other examiner designated by the Authority each level of instructing (PPL, CPL, IR and ME) before training for JAR-FCL licences;. .· There is a need for a ‘catch up’ procedure to cover those instructors who have not received any formal additional training in the past, which will require standardization flight checks by the Head of Training or approved examiner, and sampling by the Authority during visits;. .· It is probably better if a non-JAA instructor builds his 200 hours experience instructing for a JAR-FCL PPL, rather than becoming set into another, possibly different flight training system.. . . .Although initially addressing JAR-FCL 1 it is intended that the proposed changes would also be incorporated into Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.300.. .. .This proposal remains under discussion within the JAA but without agreement, however we are introducing the “ramping-up” solution in advance of formal agreement. The amount of training to be given to non-JAA FIs must be included in the FTO Operations/Training Manual and will be subject to agreement by the Authority as part of the approval process. Where the amount of training required is specified in JAR-FCL, these figures will represent a minimum. . . . .In conclusion, the above text is designed to keep you informed of PLD’s ongoing interaction both with the industry we regulate, and the requirements of CJAA. I hope you will find it of use in your business planning.. . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[lock wire]

People seemed to have missed the point that there are a lot of JAR PPL holders who, if they couldn't train in the USA, would not have done any flight training at all as training in the UK was outside of their budget (not to mention the weather, etc). . .. .The new NPPL with reduced costs will address this issue. A NPPL at £3000 would actually be a more affordable license than the old CAA PPL of ten years ago allowing for inflation. Can you do a US PPL + flight costs + accomodation + conversion + checkride and club joining fee back in the UK for much less than £3000?. .. .Trust me, I've trained many of them. These people go back to the UK and rent aircraft from time to time, occassionally they will pay for an IMC rating or a night rating. The point being that preventing training for JAR PPL's in the US will have a *detrimental* effect on the UK's GA industry. . .. .No it won't. Even if half the British PPL's currently training in the US don't ever train due to the extra costs the UK GA scene will benefit from millions and millions of extra revenue every year. Less pilots yes. More money for UK airfields yes.. .. . WWW, yes it will. I've read your response 3 times and it makes no sense. Please qualify the above. To me, and I hope to most, it is unequivocally clear that if JAA PPL training in the US was to effectively be closed down, the UK GA scene would without doubt suffer economically for the reasons I mention above, and many other considerations that I hope are obvious. . .. .In any case, if there really was a concern that flight training in the UK was excessively expensive, hence a salient reason for people to go state-side, why then, have they not taken off the VAT? 17.5% would make quite a difference on the bottom line and would encourage more people to train, and VAT reciepts would increase.. .Whilst the CAA's intention is 'Standardisation', what they are doing is creating a huge amount of uncertainty for the businesses effected and these are already losing income as potential customers as well as instructors are asking questions; staff moral is low and potential customers are canceling. So even at this stage there is a very strong case for litigation against the CAA and they will likely lose.. .. .The CAA, JAA or British Government have a total right to change, modify or speculate upon their system of flight training regulation. If that disrupts US companies then thats hard Cheddar for them. Just how one would bring 'litigation' I dare not dream!. .. . Indeed, but I'm talking about *how* it is being introduced. I can tell you first hand that I know of 2 schools in the US have taken legal advice over this so far (both in the UK and the US) so don't be suprised if you see something about this in Flyer magazine, et al, in a few months. I'd dearly love to elaborate, but under the circumstances that may be inappropriate on a public forum. . .. .I forgot to mention, I used to be an executive director for a public company and have a great deal of experience of such matters--and instructors who are told that they need to spend 5 grand to keep their miserly income with only 3 weeks notice should email me if they want legal recourse. Personally, I shall be persuing it ruthlessly.. .. .Hmmm.. .. .WWW. .. . Hmmm, what? I take it that's a derisory grunt? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> If it pleases you I shall purtain to being an 18 year-old would-be airline pilot so that you can condescend and belittle me without fear of embarassing yourself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . . . . <small>[ 29 March 2002, 02:44: Message edited by: lock wire ]</small>

[Julian]

Desipilot / Lockwire,. .. .Very good news, I agree that banning training outside JAR states will have a detrimental effect on GA in the UK, as it is repeat business which brings in the money, rather than a PPL course.. .. .Eh? 1500 PPLs a year by Brits in the US being about £600,000 of business lost to British/JAA schools/FI's. Initial courses are more expensive than 6 hours a year aircraft hire surely? . .. .WWW, as usual you seem to be sounding off about an area of flight training where from your continual resistance to answering the question of how much flight time you have in US airspace, . .. .Oooo is this outing the Big Secret that I have never flown in a N reg aircraft and have never set foot in America? Guilty as charged. What towering insights would I gain if I had visited Hank and Al's Aviation Emporium? What don't I know about flight training exactly????. .. .you obviously have no idea what your're talking about. Reading through other forums on this BB, other people are also picking up on the fact and it may pay you to either go and do some flying in the US or sit back.. .. .No thanks. Are you a JAA CPL IR Approved Flying Instructor? Have you worked in flight training for 7 years? Have you trained ex-US PPL's for all levels of license? I have. I know a lot about flight training and the fact that I haven't been on North American soil makes not one jot of difference to the argument here. I am sure flying and GA in the US is brilliant. Shame the EU is not so good. Lets set about changing this. Lets harmoise rules like the FAA. Lets stop sending our people to line the pockets of FAA school owners.. .. .Julian. .. .[WWW]. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 16:30: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I look forward to replying but I am off out for dinner now.. .. .Later,. .. .WWW

[rolling circle]

Thanks Desi for proving my point, the UK CAA has a much more benign attitude to overseas training than the rest of Europe. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> This proposal remains under discussion within the JAA but without agreement, however we are introducing the “ramping-up” solution in advance of formal agreement. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The fact remains that, once EASA takes over, this flexibility will be lost and the EU will make the rules. In the meantime, expect the French DGAC to refuse to recognise UK issued JAA PPLs, as they already do with the CPL and Type Ratings

[DesiPilot]

RC,. .. .I am not complaining about anything. But who knows what EASA will bring. The JAA didnt do too well. Germany already walked out of it and most of the States seems doubtful. Do you really think there could be harmonisation within all these EU States?. .. .[Yes there should, then we will be big enough to take on the FAA. Germany has not walked out. EASA will arrive and the French will insist that we stop letting people train in the US for JAA licenses. If everyone then starts doing FAA and converting they will dream up a new requirement that makes it no longer cost effective.[/b]. .. .I personally think that the whole idea sounds very appealing but it is not practical. Given the cultural and language differences it is not practical. . .. .Umm, mate we are working here on a common currency, common defence and common everything else. Regulation of flight training is small small fry!. .. .You are blaming CAA for having relaxed attitude, how about Irish IAA? They are even allowing the IR test to be done in the US airspace, as long as it is done before June 30, 2002!!!! Of course the student will be issued Irish IR, which will later be converted to JAA IR.. .. .Which is a terrible cheek. The IAA have a LOT to answer for and they will have to one day.. . . .Is that not an easy yet inexpensice way to complete ones training? Or is it an old boys network, I had to do it so everyone else must do it to??. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .No. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 16:35: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[BEagle]

But doesn't the CAA's letter still say "There is no intention for all or part of such training to be introduced for FIs who were employed on JAR-FCL Flight Instructional duties at an overseas location approved and operating on or before 31 March 2002. They will be granted “grandfather rights” and we will assume that they have been “standardized” and have done an acceptable amount of FI time on JAR courses"? Note the word approved...... . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 06:59: Message edited by: BEagle ]</small>

[Julian]

Hmmm WWW seems to be having a long dinner....or maybe he has gone Stateside to hour build.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It turned into a marathon session. I am nursing a hangover for a while... .. .WWW

[Sensible]

Give WWW credit, he does know when to keep a low profile! WWW speaking on the subject of American flying would be like Clinton speaking on the virtues of celibacy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Nah its just a nice day and I am out and about enjoying it. What is so amazing about American flying? Same airplanes same air. I don't care how the Americans want the FAA to write the rules. I do care and know a bit about how the Europeans want the JAA to write the rules. Which is the point of this thread. I am not American bashing.. .. .Speaking of low profiles, Query has yet to throw in his two pennyworth!. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 16:38: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[theRolfe2]

Some possible explanations for WWW's temporary withdrawal from this debate:. .. .1. He's gone to Florida to 'stamp out' foreign JAA training. He's driving around FBO's that do it and demanding that they stop in the name of the JAA, The Queen and Common Decency.. .. .1. His girlfriend had the day off and he took her off on a sunny day to the pub and they got hammered.. .. .2. His superiors at the airline he's a 1st officer for have read his comment on another thread that he 'could find fault with anybody' and decided that he needed an impromptu 10 hour sim check.. .. .[b]2. He just passed his LPC/OPC above average thanks for asking. My out of context comment above was made to a bunch of squabbling PPL's trying to lecture each other about how things should be done. I wanted to rain on all their parades by pointing out that none of them is a perfect pilot. . .. .theRolfe. .. .theRolfe - thanks for your inputs here on your single issue stance of defending US training of EU nationals. It is something that is going to be stamped out one way or another, the French alone will see to that. Its really nothing personal so don't take it that way.. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 16:43: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>

[slim_slag]

Hi WWW, I hope your hangover wasn't too bad! Bit grumpy today are we? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .I'm doing this backwards!. .. .All I hear is a US citizen trying to protect his lucrative supply of EU professiona pilot training. . .. .If that is all you hear then you are not listening. First I'm a Brit, though I work in the US a lot and even live here on and off, I have skills they need and I've had the opportunity to do a lot of flying here. . .. .One thing I will say to you is that you need to live here for years to understand the place. Most Brits have no clue whatsoever about America really works - and the other way round too. I also encourage you to come here and rent a single for two weeks and just fly. Fly the Rockies, fly the LA Basin, fly to Alaska (OK, four weeks). I know you will make a lot of mistakes, learn a hell of a lot and you will become a far better pilot. Of course little will be relevant to a 737 flight deck........ .. .You will also be able to talk about the US with some authority, which right now you cannot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> Just friendly advice.. .. .GA in the US is more than just training EU nationals. It's a massive business, EU GA is a pimple compared to what goes on here. If EU nationals are barred from training here (and it's going to be more difficult as a result of WTC) I am sure some places will go out of business. Not many though. Obviously those places with 20 planes on the line may drop to 19, but in general it will have little impact. Certainly the impact on me will be zero.. .. .The NPPL will be as cheap as a US PPL for the pleasure flyer. . .. .Huh? How will different words on the top of your licence make it cheaper? Do you get cheaper fuel? Do you get cheaper landing charges? Do you get cheaper (less maintained) planes? Do the FI's work at a cheaper rate? I'm all ears on this one.. .. .I want to stop that impoverished kid from denying himself a first job as a flying instructor in a country that will not throw him out as a foreigner after two years . .. .This is where I have most problem with your stance. Who the hell do you think you are telling a kid what to do and what is better for him and his money. Why don't you let him make that choice? Sure there is a price to pay for the opportunity to work in the US, he has to pay for training. Very good training and cheap training too. He will have plenty of hours and superb experience when he applies to the airlines in the UK. Better experience than an equivalent houred instructor in the UK I wager, but that's another story.. .. .Let HIM make that choice. Stop being protectionist on what an individual can do with his time and his money.. .. . I doubt the maximum £2000 saving on a US PPL will see the numbers entering the profession slump! . .. .Actually, you advocated no JAR training in the US for professional licences. That's more than a £2000 saving. If it was only £2000 why are you so upset about it?. .. .Never said they do give a damn. . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The USA uses tax incentives on fuel and subsidy of GA to give its flight training a competitive advantage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">You pretty much did. You implied that US taxes and GA subsidy is of a competitive nature against EU. That is total bollox. The Yanks don't care, GA is a HUGE business here. As I said, EU money is a (welcome) pimple, but they can and will do without it.. .. .They do subsidise GA with, for example, huge ex-mil airfields released to GA users at peppercorn rents. They also have lower taxation on all aspects of the business. . .. .Sure, taxes are lower. That's one of the great things about the US. Incentives to regenerate areas are a local issue. So to what tune am I subsidised when I take my little super-cub out and putz around? How much money do you think I am draining from the public purse?. .. .Even if GA is subsidised, which it's not. What's wrong with a budding professional pilot from Blackburn taking advantage of those stupid Yank taxpayers to get some superior experience on the cheap??????. .. .Cheers

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am sure flying the Rockies etc. would be great Slim Slag. I am sure America is a lovely place full of lovely people.. .. .However.. .. .You run your aviation industry under FAA and we do it under JAA and never the twain will meet. That applies from the top of the industry right down to the bottom. Except not the very bottom.. .. .By historical chance the Brits allow some training for their licenses to be done in the US, South Africa, Oz etc. Now that Britain is in the JAA its fellow members who do not allow such things insist they come into line. Which they will.. .. .So the whole debate here is a bit pointless.. .. .I'm glad and think its a good thing. Some of you don't - from this thread the majority are US flight school owners or instructors.. .. .Thats OK. We are allowed to have different opinions here. Its what the board is for!. .. .Cheers,. .. .WWW