CTC ATP scheme
I say there boy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CTC ATP scheme
Does anyone have an idea of how many people progress to the AQC part of the assessment as opposed to the number that are accepted on the scheme?
Do just a small proportion fail at the last hurdle, or is it just a device to keep CTC's expensive AQC course full of students and therefore another expensive gamble for a wannabe?
cheers!
foggy.
Do just a small proportion fail at the last hurdle, or is it just a device to keep CTC's expensive AQC course full of students and therefore another expensive gamble for a wannabe?
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 14th Dec 2002 at 22:25.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foghorn
The selection process should weed out people who are unlikely to pass the AQC course however there are people who have not progressed into the holding pool. No idea what the percentage but I'm sure it is pretty low.
If you are lucky enough to get to that stage - grab it with both hands and work your socks off. The reward for passing maybe beyond your imagination - I know!!
The selection process should weed out people who are unlikely to pass the AQC course however there are people who have not progressed into the holding pool. No idea what the percentage but I'm sure it is pretty low.
If you are lucky enough to get to that stage - grab it with both hands and work your socks off. The reward for passing maybe beyond your imagination - I know!!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: dagobah system
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not to be confused with the CTC McAlpine zero to ATPL sponsorship, this scheme gives qualified pilots a type rating and line training IF successful after paying 6K for an enhanced MCC course. So its not a 60K benefit if successful although obviously well worth your time if you make it into the ranks of easyjet etc.
I have no direct experience with the organisation although they do seem to have a good reputation. Foghorn raises a good point about the odds of actually getting the type rating and line experience after paying for the course. From talking to friends who have been to the evaluations CTC gave the impression of being guarded about giving away these kinds of statistics, for whatever thats worth. I know of five people who were selected and completed the course. Out of these five I know one who has since started a type rating course for easyjet. One failed the final handling test and is out of the hold pool. The remaining three have had no response over the last 2 to 6 months after completing the course, although they are told they will be picked up eventually. Incidentally, the one doing the type rating was not the first to do the course and has apparently jumped ahead.
CTC have said in the past that places in the hold pool are determined by your grading on the scheme, and it would appear that it is possible to jump ahead if you do well/they like you. The lad that failed his handling test was not a below average pilot, just bad luck that day. It would be interesting to hear if other people have had similar experiences, as everything I have written is just heresay from what other people have told me over pints.
I have no direct experience with the organisation although they do seem to have a good reputation. Foghorn raises a good point about the odds of actually getting the type rating and line experience after paying for the course. From talking to friends who have been to the evaluations CTC gave the impression of being guarded about giving away these kinds of statistics, for whatever thats worth. I know of five people who were selected and completed the course. Out of these five I know one who has since started a type rating course for easyjet. One failed the final handling test and is out of the hold pool. The remaining three have had no response over the last 2 to 6 months after completing the course, although they are told they will be picked up eventually. Incidentally, the one doing the type rating was not the first to do the course and has apparently jumped ahead.
CTC have said in the past that places in the hold pool are determined by your grading on the scheme, and it would appear that it is possible to jump ahead if you do well/they like you. The lad that failed his handling test was not a below average pilot, just bad luck that day. It would be interesting to hear if other people have had similar experiences, as everything I have written is just heresay from what other people have told me over pints.
I say there boy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the info, skyoda - I've only ever met one person who's been through the scheme and he didn't get through to the pool - however I know that there are several pprune regulars who have got through and gone virtually straight to jet airlines.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Up In The Sky...
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting reading, but I must say I'm not surprised that CTC have been somewhat shady in the past re: statistics and numbers on how many a) pass their selection tests and move onto the course, and b) of those who do move on, how many on average get into the pool?
Wouldn't we all love to know the answers to the above, however like I said, CTC will keep this quiet as I can only assume the figures themselves would decrease their revenue due to pilots like us evaluating or thinking twice about the cash vs risk scenario.
I do however reserve judgement on CTC and I'm sure they are a very well run and professional organisation. But should another f.ATPLer take a chance on Another £6K? Well like I said on my original msg, its worth a chance I guess if you've already spunked 60 big ones the f.ATPL.
Wouldn't we all love to know the answers to the above, however like I said, CTC will keep this quiet as I can only assume the figures themselves would decrease their revenue due to pilots like us evaluating or thinking twice about the cash vs risk scenario.
I do however reserve judgement on CTC and I'm sure they are a very well run and professional organisation. But should another f.ATPLer take a chance on Another £6K? Well like I said on my original msg, its worth a chance I guess if you've already spunked 60 big ones the f.ATPL.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Midlands, UK
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know of at least 4 cadets earlier this year who passed the AQC and whatever advanced handling courses they had to do and are STILL waiting around in a holding pool somewhere!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Up In The Sky...
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guess you could argue that those guys are sitting around after months due to the post 9/11 downturn in the industry.
Flipside of that of course is that the CTC associated airlines are of the 'low cost' persuasion, the ones that are apparently 'booming' at the moment. It therefore makes you think, why are the ones in the holding pool after several months still not in jobs or even interviewed???
Flipside of that of course is that the CTC associated airlines are of the 'low cost' persuasion, the ones that are apparently 'booming' at the moment. It therefore makes you think, why are the ones in the holding pool after several months still not in jobs or even interviewed???
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: dagobah system
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a tough question and I suppose without any statistics forthcoming from CTC it can only be classed as a calculated gamble. The real problem is that there are really very few options for the 200 hr frozen ATPL holder without any commercial experience.
I'd be interested to hear what people would choose to do if they could get a loan for 6 grand.
1) get a flight instructor ticket assuming you had a job lead with a local club
2) do the AQC assuming you were selected
If there were any turboprop operators hiring people and training them up then that's what I would choose to do, but if you can't get a job through the traditional route you either fork up and pay more or roll over and go back to the old job, whatever that happens to be.
I'd be interested to hear what people would choose to do if they could get a loan for 6 grand.
1) get a flight instructor ticket assuming you had a job lead with a local club
2) do the AQC assuming you were selected
If there were any turboprop operators hiring people and training them up then that's what I would choose to do, but if you can't get a job through the traditional route you either fork up and pay more or roll over and go back to the old job, whatever that happens to be.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys,
Easyjet aren't the only airline that take CTC hold pool pilots. I would disagree with Morning Glory who stated;
Monarch and jmc are not of the low cost persuasion and have taken cadets in the past, amongst others. The market is still very depressed for low hours guys. Pilots with much more experience are finding places with various carriers and it all comes down to supply and demand. jmc only rescinded the last of their redundancies in September and went into the winter with something like 5 pilots over establishment. Why would they currently be looking for anyone from the hold pool at CTC? I don't know about Monarch but I would guess they are also currently fully established for the winter season. Most other airlines are still licking their wounds post 9/11.
Easyjet are constantly recruiting and take quite a cross section of experience levels. It's just timing. Things will pick up and movement will take place and guys in the hold pool will get picked up at some point. I have a pal who was in it for a year before getting jmc, and that was a couple of years ago when expansion was still happenning.
If you're not in the pool you won't get placed. If you are good enough it's another opportunity and a great one at that. Airlines like jmc love low hours guys - they even out the demograph and aren't banging on the Chief Pilot's door within a year asking for a command that is at least 7 years away. They also like the CTC scheme where someone else(CTC) take the risk of failure. When I did my 757 course (run by CTC but not as a cadet with them) 2 guys out of 5 on the 757 course failed. That cost CTC not the airlines they were destined for. I understand that they reviewed their selection procedure after that as they blamed themselves rather than the cadets. So yes, the selection is tough, but so is getting a job outside of any scheme and you have to put in 110% to pass. This course however, gives you a huge leg up in the industry if you are successful. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it I reckon you gain about 5 years on an average self improver, and that's flying jets and eventually earning a jet salary.
Just be realistic about the market for a pilot with 200hrs and it will all fall into perspective. That perspective must look a lot better from within their hold pool.
Good luck.
PP
Easyjet aren't the only airline that take CTC hold pool pilots. I would disagree with Morning Glory who stated;
Flipside of that of course is that the CTC associated airlines are of the 'low cost' persuasion, the ones that are apparently 'booming' at the moment.
Easyjet are constantly recruiting and take quite a cross section of experience levels. It's just timing. Things will pick up and movement will take place and guys in the hold pool will get picked up at some point. I have a pal who was in it for a year before getting jmc, and that was a couple of years ago when expansion was still happenning.
If you're not in the pool you won't get placed. If you are good enough it's another opportunity and a great one at that. Airlines like jmc love low hours guys - they even out the demograph and aren't banging on the Chief Pilot's door within a year asking for a command that is at least 7 years away. They also like the CTC scheme where someone else(CTC) take the risk of failure. When I did my 757 course (run by CTC but not as a cadet with them) 2 guys out of 5 on the 757 course failed. That cost CTC not the airlines they were destined for. I understand that they reviewed their selection procedure after that as they blamed themselves rather than the cadets. So yes, the selection is tough, but so is getting a job outside of any scheme and you have to put in 110% to pass. This course however, gives you a huge leg up in the industry if you are successful. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it I reckon you gain about 5 years on an average self improver, and that's flying jets and eventually earning a jet salary.
Just be realistic about the market for a pilot with 200hrs and it will all fall into perspective. That perspective must look a lot better from within their hold pool.
Good luck.
PP
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For a while now I have been considering doing the ATP scheme. The only reason I have not applied for the scheme is the fact that I may not get selected for the pool following the AQC. As I already have MCC, this would mean that it would be a complete waste of money. This thread has now got me thinking, that even if you get selected for the pool, the pool may be very deep and slow to empty. Pilot Pete is quite right when he says
But that was in the past and a long time ago. So apart from Easyjet, which other carriers are currently using the ATP scheme?
worzel
Monarch and jmc are not of the low cost persuasion and have taken cadets in the past, amongst others.
worzel
Terrier
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: moonbase alpha
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everyone,
Pilot Pete is a good friend of mine, and he is probably the most sensible and level headed bloke I have met.
What he says is true. Pete and I have flown 757's for 3 different airlines inside 2 years at the same base, and have a reasonable idea of how it is for new low hour pilots on 757's .
In addition to this, Pete did his Course with CTC , and I was a CTC/ATP scheme graduate.
I can tell you this:
Be as suspicious as you like about CTC and their motives, and you can be as jaundiced as you like too. However, the fact is you have NO CHANCE of being a CTC graduate if you do not apply!
That means you will be at LEAST 5 years behind your peers who do..........if they make the grade.
As Pete says, jmc may not need pilots this week. However, I reckon they will by May, and my bets will be that they will take a handful of low hours CTC guys on.
Fill your boots, or if you prefer you can sit around and just dream about flying a big shiny jet. The choice is yours, but no-one owes you a living. CTC included.
Pilot Pete is a good friend of mine, and he is probably the most sensible and level headed bloke I have met.
What he says is true. Pete and I have flown 757's for 3 different airlines inside 2 years at the same base, and have a reasonable idea of how it is for new low hour pilots on 757's .
In addition to this, Pete did his Course with CTC , and I was a CTC/ATP scheme graduate.
I can tell you this:
Be as suspicious as you like about CTC and their motives, and you can be as jaundiced as you like too. However, the fact is you have NO CHANCE of being a CTC graduate if you do not apply!
That means you will be at LEAST 5 years behind your peers who do..........if they make the grade.
As Pete says, jmc may not need pilots this week. However, I reckon they will by May, and my bets will be that they will take a handful of low hours CTC guys on.
Fill your boots, or if you prefer you can sit around and just dream about flying a big shiny jet. The choice is yours, but no-one owes you a living. CTC included.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wales
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ctc
Hi darkronic!
I'm in exactly the same position as you, I sent off the 2nd part with no copies of exam results,passport etc. and I still haven't heard a thing. I rang them up after about a week for them to confirm they had received everything and they said'yes' with no mention of anything missing.
My opinion is that no news is good news.I know from other responses on this that some people have already had rejections and i only know of one person who has been invited down to a test day-which wasn't a date suggested on the part2 applic. details. So I'm hoping the new year will throw something up, probably wont be related to ctc.
I'm not that impressed by their administration so far, i just hope it is not a reflection on the company as a whole.
All the best
I'm in exactly the same position as you, I sent off the 2nd part with no copies of exam results,passport etc. and I still haven't heard a thing. I rang them up after about a week for them to confirm they had received everything and they said'yes' with no mention of anything missing.
My opinion is that no news is good news.I know from other responses on this that some people have already had rejections and i only know of one person who has been invited down to a test day-which wasn't a date suggested on the part2 applic. details. So I'm hoping the new year will throw something up, probably wont be related to ctc.
I'm not that impressed by their administration so far, i just hope it is not a reflection on the company as a whole.
All the best
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Up North
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tailscrape
Just finished mod 1 with Bristol, got the results on Thurday, 8/8 avg 90% so v.happy with this. I'll be doing mod 2 exams in April. All things being equal I will be applying for CTC ATP next August.
I want to get as much info as possible to prepare for this and would greatly appreciate any comment/advice on the selection process and course itself.
Thanks
Just finished mod 1 with Bristol, got the results on Thurday, 8/8 avg 90% so v.happy with this. I'll be doing mod 2 exams in April. All things being equal I will be applying for CTC ATP next August.
I want to get as much info as possible to prepare for this and would greatly appreciate any comment/advice on the selection process and course itself.
Thanks
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CTC
Have to say i think this scheme is great for those who get through (very small percentage i believe).
However it seems to me that all the CTC scheme is doing is narrowing the number of chances for getting a job for your average wannabe ie. if more airlines join up to the CTC scheme and then you're not selected as one of the 'best' then the number of airlines you can apply to directly has reduced.
Also the CTC seem to charge great amounts of money for your psycho tests, etc when really this cost should be paid for by the recruiting airline. Is it then true you're on reduced salary for a period of time - those few who get through the CTC scheme could probably have got a jet job directly at a much lower overall cost to themselves.
Is it just me or does the CTC scheme seem to feed off desperate unemployed wannabes?
However it seems to me that all the CTC scheme is doing is narrowing the number of chances for getting a job for your average wannabe ie. if more airlines join up to the CTC scheme and then you're not selected as one of the 'best' then the number of airlines you can apply to directly has reduced.
Also the CTC seem to charge great amounts of money for your psycho tests, etc when really this cost should be paid for by the recruiting airline. Is it then true you're on reduced salary for a period of time - those few who get through the CTC scheme could probably have got a jet job directly at a much lower overall cost to themselves.
Is it just me or does the CTC scheme seem to feed off desperate unemployed wannabes?
I say there boy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi guys,
Thanks for the input so far. Can I just confirm for dakronic, sparkyw et al. that this thread is about
The CTC ATP scheme
which is a scheme for frozen ATPL holders looking for their first job
not
The CTC MacAlpine Sponsorship scheme
which is an ab initio sponsorship. There are other threads running on which you can post your questions and comment regarding this.
Anyway, back on the subject, as Tailscrape says, you've got to be in it to win it, even if you do stand to spend a large amount of money possibly achieving nothing. There don't appear to be many other ways in to a job at the moment, and not for the near future, neither.
However you can't criticise people for having a healthy dose of cynicism in this industry: there are too many people out there looking to relieve desperate wannabes of their hard earned cash for little in return.
cheers!
foggy.
Thanks for the input so far. Can I just confirm for dakronic, sparkyw et al. that this thread is about
The CTC ATP scheme
which is a scheme for frozen ATPL holders looking for their first job
not
The CTC MacAlpine Sponsorship scheme
which is an ab initio sponsorship. There are other threads running on which you can post your questions and comment regarding this.
Anyway, back on the subject, as Tailscrape says, you've got to be in it to win it, even if you do stand to spend a large amount of money possibly achieving nothing. There don't appear to be many other ways in to a job at the moment, and not for the near future, neither.
However you can't criticise people for having a healthy dose of cynicism in this industry: there are too many people out there looking to relieve desperate wannabes of their hard earned cash for little in return.
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 22nd Dec 2002 at 14:21.