CTC ATP scheme
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Hmm, Jellyman, don't really follow your logic! At any one time, the airlines collectively have a fairly fixed number of positions available, whether for DE type-qualified pilots or ab-initio cadets. The method of recruiting and training won't really alter that number. However, if airlines see a way of improving the quality of their intake, particularly for pilots with little or no experience, they are very likely to use it. All that changes is (or should be) the failure rate. In other words, there will be fewer expensive drop-outs later. Those who have the ability have nothing to worry about!
In fact, the only impact I see schemes like the EZ one having is to increase the opportunities for Wannabes at a time when airlines are very reluctant to invest in new people. This gives the airlines a lower-risk and relatively low cost way of getting new blood at a time when the option could be less recruiting overall - at least for the time being.
Believe me, if and when the pilot market regains its competitiveness of the late '90s, airlines will be tripping over each other to offer you jobs at less and less cost to those lucky enough to be targetted. But they will always be interested in minimising their financial risk, and so the recruiting of new pilots via professional training providers is likely to be an increasing feature of wannabes' lives.
edited to aim at the right person - sorry Foggy!
In fact, the only impact I see schemes like the EZ one having is to increase the opportunities for Wannabes at a time when airlines are very reluctant to invest in new people. This gives the airlines a lower-risk and relatively low cost way of getting new blood at a time when the option could be less recruiting overall - at least for the time being.
Believe me, if and when the pilot market regains its competitiveness of the late '90s, airlines will be tripping over each other to offer you jobs at less and less cost to those lucky enough to be targetted. But they will always be interested in minimising their financial risk, and so the recruiting of new pilots via professional training providers is likely to be an increasing feature of wannabes' lives.
edited to aim at the right person - sorry Foggy!
Last edited by scroggs; 22nd Dec 2002 at 18:32.
Terrier
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The Dream,
Congrats on your results thus far. You should be very proud. Keep up the hard work! If you want some (albeit out of date info on the ATP scheme, you can get me on: [email protected]). You should apply. You have as good a chance as any.
Jellyman,
You don't seem to grasp the point do you? With 200 hours or even let's say 1500 hours without Airline, Turbine or jet experience the chances of you getting a job with ANY of CTC's partner airlines are virtually nil.
So, for you to say CTCare shutting the door on you is wrong. If you get on the scheme they are OPENING a door for you!!
Glass half empty or half full do you think?
jmc,easy,Monarch,Britannia,Air2000......... quite frankly these guys aren't interested in you unless you are not going to screw up! Guess who guarantees that? CTC.
Think about it and stop being such a little moaner.
Congrats on your results thus far. You should be very proud. Keep up the hard work! If you want some (albeit out of date info on the ATP scheme, you can get me on: [email protected]). You should apply. You have as good a chance as any.
Jellyman,
You don't seem to grasp the point do you? With 200 hours or even let's say 1500 hours without Airline, Turbine or jet experience the chances of you getting a job with ANY of CTC's partner airlines are virtually nil.
So, for you to say CTCare shutting the door on you is wrong. If you get on the scheme they are OPENING a door for you!!
Glass half empty or half full do you think?
jmc,easy,Monarch,Britannia,Air2000......... quite frankly these guys aren't interested in you unless you are not going to screw up! Guess who guarantees that? CTC.
Think about it and stop being such a little moaner.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Tailscrape and Pilot Pete, I agree with you when you say you have to go for the CTC Scheme to have a shot at these airlines, and you can't get a place if you don't try. However, I think the question Foghorn was raising initially was what is the percentage who are successful up to taking the ATP course, and then don't end up seeing the benefits. Everyone can see the benefits that some such as yourself have gained from the scheme, but as sensible people we are also interested in the risks. I understand that when you went through the scheme there was no cost to the successful cadets, therefore obviously no real risk. Now they are looking for an investment of 6K which is good value for money if you get a job out of it, but perhaps better invested elsewhere if nothing will come of it.
The impression I'm getting is that the odds are pretty good if you make it through the first three phases of selection and therefore worth the investment. It would be more reassuring to have actual facts to back this up though. Another factor to consider is the likely wait to gain an interview after the AQC. In my personal circumstances it may not be worth the investment if the wait is much over six months for instance.
It would be interesting to hear from someone who is closely connected with the current scheme (ie hold pool or employed in the last few months) to get a clearer impression of the current state of the scheme.
The impression I'm getting is that the odds are pretty good if you make it through the first three phases of selection and therefore worth the investment. It would be more reassuring to have actual facts to back this up though. Another factor to consider is the likely wait to gain an interview after the AQC. In my personal circumstances it may not be worth the investment if the wait is much over six months for instance.
It would be interesting to hear from someone who is closely connected with the current scheme (ie hold pool or employed in the last few months) to get a clearer impression of the current state of the scheme.
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Jellyman,
No, I have a 757 strapped to my arse now. Courtesy of CTC.
Had I been asked though to wear CTC pants by them, I would have.
It all depends on how you look at it really. It is a great scheme if you get lucky, it can be frustrating if you do not.
Good luck in 2003.
No, I have a 757 strapped to my arse now. Courtesy of CTC.
Had I been asked though to wear CTC pants by them, I would have.
It all depends on how you look at it really. It is a great scheme if you get lucky, it can be frustrating if you do not.
Good luck in 2003.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Let's try and look at this in a more open minded way.
You want information such as statistics on pass/fail time to job etc etc. This is understandable and you are trying to do the correct thing by researching thoroughly before parting with any cash in aviation training. Again, laudable and correct. Unfortunately it is not going to do you much good in the case of the CTC scheme.
They are not their like a training school who want to advertise their pass rate in order to get you to part with the hard erned cash, not as far as the scheme goes anyhow. Sure they are selling a product which may be your first experience of them, and them of you and tied to that product is a chance for them to assesss you for possible selection on to their scheme. View it a bit like a 'buy 2 get 1 free' promotion at Tesco's. Is it wrong for them to get you to buy 2 of their products in order to get aniother one for nothing or is it a good thing. It depends upon which side of the fence you sit. They are just employing a carrot and stick which will increase their income, just like any other business. Of course they are there to make money, but they are offering something very enticing in return, a bit like the national lottery. Don't play if you don't want to, but if you do you have to accept that you may lose. If you can't afford their course then don't do it. If you do it and don't get accepted for selection then you have walked away with a product for which you have paid. View it as such. The value of that course to you is down to only you to decide.
If you sign up for their course and perform well on it they may offer you the chance to go for their ATP selection process. It all comes down to ability, determination and desire to succeed. They only want candidates who show these qualities in abundance because they are going to put their neck on the line for you. Their income comes from the airlines, not really much from you. Their reputation is built on the performance of people like you. They hold the controlling hand. Like it or not. If you think this is a scam then don't go anywhere near them, but they have a track record of placing hundreds of successful candidates in partner airlines and they will continue to do so.
The competition is stiff, but human nature being as it is you will find that only a small minority match up to exacting criteria. You have to be prepared to push yourself as hard as you can, to be willing to that little bit extra that others don't, to prove to them that you are good enough and reliable enough and determined enough to get through a jet type rating course with low hours. It is not easy and many people don't succeed. CTC are weeding the possible failures out before investing their time and money in their 'commodity'.
And what do you get in return? If successful you are put into the RHS of a jet saving many years on your peers. After a while you go permanent with that airline and can sit back and build hours on a 737/757 earning a jet salary.
So, from the day you first apply to them you are under scrutiny. You would be amazed at the reasons for people failing; from not following the instructions on the application form to not trying hard enough when in the sim on the type rating course. They will fail you at any stage if you display that you are not up to it. They will not risk their reputation on a possible failure. That's what the airlines like about them - a known product with the risk taken by someone else.
Do everything you can 'not to fail' and you will pass. Fill out the application neatly and correctly, polish your shoes and iron your shirt, don't make a 'tit' of yourself when in their company, be positive ALL the time, be determined to succeed and be mature and understanding, infact, be everything that a pilot should be and you will be exactly what they want. Most of all, rise to the challenge.
So, Askyoda, if 6 months in their holding pool would be too long for you then don't bother applying as they would weed you out for that, you don't want what they are offering enough.
Jellyman. If more airlines sign up to CTC it means that CTC would make more money and those airlines would take less risk. It does not mean that less jobs would be available for candidates to apply for. It also does not mean that standards would necessarily be higher therefore making it harder for newbees - direct entry to airlines is just as hard as CTC selection, it's just that you tend to have more experience for direct entry. This is why CTC have to be so selective, because their candidates don't have that experience to fall back on so they need to have a high level of ability to start with.
Wrong. If you are not at that stage yet just wait until you are. Speak to ANY pilot in an airline who wasn't sponsored and see what hardship they have gone through to get their first jet job. Some take years and years with setbacks and layoffs due to no fault or lack of ability on their part. I was one of those who had a 250hr CPL who didn't get one interview out of every single UK carrier back in 1999 when I finished training. I know of only one of my peers who got direct entry into Britannia with 250hrs. Everyone else had to take different routes, including 2 who passed CTC selection for the ATP Scheme.
So do remember that CTC is producing a product and in order for that product to be of the highest quality the ingredients have to be of the highest quality. Forget statistics, if you know that you have what it takes then follow your gut feelings. CTC are very reputable, they would not still be in flavour if what they did was not acceptable in any way. Those who have failed to get through their selection will always use the 'scam' card as a way to justify their failings.
The avaition world is tough and competitive. Welcome to the game.
Good luck Wannabes
PP
You want information such as statistics on pass/fail time to job etc etc. This is understandable and you are trying to do the correct thing by researching thoroughly before parting with any cash in aviation training. Again, laudable and correct. Unfortunately it is not going to do you much good in the case of the CTC scheme.
They are not their like a training school who want to advertise their pass rate in order to get you to part with the hard erned cash, not as far as the scheme goes anyhow. Sure they are selling a product which may be your first experience of them, and them of you and tied to that product is a chance for them to assesss you for possible selection on to their scheme. View it a bit like a 'buy 2 get 1 free' promotion at Tesco's. Is it wrong for them to get you to buy 2 of their products in order to get aniother one for nothing or is it a good thing. It depends upon which side of the fence you sit. They are just employing a carrot and stick which will increase their income, just like any other business. Of course they are there to make money, but they are offering something very enticing in return, a bit like the national lottery. Don't play if you don't want to, but if you do you have to accept that you may lose. If you can't afford their course then don't do it. If you do it and don't get accepted for selection then you have walked away with a product for which you have paid. View it as such. The value of that course to you is down to only you to decide.
If you sign up for their course and perform well on it they may offer you the chance to go for their ATP selection process. It all comes down to ability, determination and desire to succeed. They only want candidates who show these qualities in abundance because they are going to put their neck on the line for you. Their income comes from the airlines, not really much from you. Their reputation is built on the performance of people like you. They hold the controlling hand. Like it or not. If you think this is a scam then don't go anywhere near them, but they have a track record of placing hundreds of successful candidates in partner airlines and they will continue to do so.
The competition is stiff, but human nature being as it is you will find that only a small minority match up to exacting criteria. You have to be prepared to push yourself as hard as you can, to be willing to that little bit extra that others don't, to prove to them that you are good enough and reliable enough and determined enough to get through a jet type rating course with low hours. It is not easy and many people don't succeed. CTC are weeding the possible failures out before investing their time and money in their 'commodity'.
And what do you get in return? If successful you are put into the RHS of a jet saving many years on your peers. After a while you go permanent with that airline and can sit back and build hours on a 737/757 earning a jet salary.
So, from the day you first apply to them you are under scrutiny. You would be amazed at the reasons for people failing; from not following the instructions on the application form to not trying hard enough when in the sim on the type rating course. They will fail you at any stage if you display that you are not up to it. They will not risk their reputation on a possible failure. That's what the airlines like about them - a known product with the risk taken by someone else.
Do everything you can 'not to fail' and you will pass. Fill out the application neatly and correctly, polish your shoes and iron your shirt, don't make a 'tit' of yourself when in their company, be positive ALL the time, be determined to succeed and be mature and understanding, infact, be everything that a pilot should be and you will be exactly what they want. Most of all, rise to the challenge.
So, Askyoda, if 6 months in their holding pool would be too long for you then don't bother applying as they would weed you out for that, you don't want what they are offering enough.
Jellyman. If more airlines sign up to CTC it means that CTC would make more money and those airlines would take less risk. It does not mean that less jobs would be available for candidates to apply for. It also does not mean that standards would necessarily be higher therefore making it harder for newbees - direct entry to airlines is just as hard as CTC selection, it's just that you tend to have more experience for direct entry. This is why CTC have to be so selective, because their candidates don't have that experience to fall back on so they need to have a high level of ability to start with.
those few who get through the CTC scheme could probably have got a jet job directly at a much lower overall cost to themselves.
So do remember that CTC is producing a product and in order for that product to be of the highest quality the ingredients have to be of the highest quality. Forget statistics, if you know that you have what it takes then follow your gut feelings. CTC are very reputable, they would not still be in flavour if what they did was not acceptable in any way. Those who have failed to get through their selection will always use the 'scam' card as a way to justify their failings.
The avaition world is tough and competitive. Welcome to the game.
Good luck Wannabes
PP
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Do any of you guy's know the entry requirements regarding the ATPL exams ie first time passes in them all ?
I heard first time passes in the CPL IR skills tests was a must ?
Reasons for asking are that i had a bad day at the office and failed some first time.
has anyone been through the selection process ?
I heard first time passes in the CPL IR skills tests was a must ?
Reasons for asking are that i had a bad day at the office and failed some first time.
has anyone been through the selection process ?
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Go-Around
I'm not going to try and defend CTC against every accusation that's posted on here. As anyone can see I have posted a personal opinion from personal experience. I will however post another more broad personal opinion regarding your last comment, which fair enough, may be just a dig rather than a 'political' opinion.
If CTC have a tie up with a Dutch training school (which I believe they have), then that is business. From my experience of their selection process luck wasn't really much of a factor. That's why they had (not sure on the current process) 4 different phases - you would have to be incredibly lucky to not have the skills but get through all 4 and enter the hold pool.
It's all supply and demand and for those reading this who are considering applying to CTC (or any airline come to that) you need to be astute as to business practice and the Euro market. Any hint of negativity (despite the equality/inequality of the pilot market place) will leave you in the 'rejection letter' pile. This is not me taking the side of bringing in cheap(er) labour from the third world, just an observation for fellow 'little fish' going for interview.
Regards
PP
I'm not going to try and defend CTC against every accusation that's posted on here. As anyone can see I have posted a personal opinion from personal experience. I will however post another more broad personal opinion regarding your last comment, which fair enough, may be just a dig rather than a 'political' opinion.
If CTC have a tie up with a Dutch training school (which I believe they have), then that is business. From my experience of their selection process luck wasn't really much of a factor. That's why they had (not sure on the current process) 4 different phases - you would have to be incredibly lucky to not have the skills but get through all 4 and enter the hold pool.
It's all supply and demand and for those reading this who are considering applying to CTC (or any airline come to that) you need to be astute as to business practice and the Euro market. Any hint of negativity (despite the equality/inequality of the pilot market place) will leave you in the 'rejection letter' pile. This is not me taking the side of bringing in cheap(er) labour from the third world, just an observation for fellow 'little fish' going for interview.
Regards
PP
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Pilot Pete:
I'm not knocking CTC either, I'm just speaking from little experience.
I personally know 12 people who went to CTC. 2 in 2001 and 10 in the summer of 2002. The two (British) people that went in 2001 got accepted and went to a 737 and a 757 job, all good stuff.
Of the 10 who went in 2002, 6 got jobs (guess which nationality,) and in my opinion, which might not count for all that much, the people that didn't get through were much better pilots, and i'm not the only one that thinks so.
I realise that CTC is a business, and they want to make a profit, and if they have a tie up with a foreign trainer then fine, as long as people know about it.
I'd go for it myself if I thought it was a level playing field.
And I would also wear CTC pants if it meant getting a job!
I'm not knocking CTC either, I'm just speaking from little experience.
I personally know 12 people who went to CTC. 2 in 2001 and 10 in the summer of 2002. The two (British) people that went in 2001 got accepted and went to a 737 and a 757 job, all good stuff.
Of the 10 who went in 2002, 6 got jobs (guess which nationality,) and in my opinion, which might not count for all that much, the people that didn't get through were much better pilots, and i'm not the only one that thinks so.
I realise that CTC is a business, and they want to make a profit, and if they have a tie up with a foreign trainer then fine, as long as people know about it.
I'd go for it myself if I thought it was a level playing field.
And I would also wear CTC pants if it meant getting a job!
