HSBC and Degree's
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Mr Muppet please tell me you didnt show the manager your 'S*1T' and call him (or her) 'DUDE'?! also Bow5 makes some good points about the industry and asks the question 'Is it right to put your family at risk of financial ruin?' but the question was do you need a degree? and the answer is NO
New thread please!!!
New thread please!!!
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No sense of humour
Muppet its no wonder HSBC said no to you! you dont know what your on about!!! Just like most of the other people on this thread, I got my loan without a degree. Why dont you try again when you finish high school!!
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At the end of the day, I WAS TOLD that a degree is a 'piece of paper' and that is it, why waste money on goin to uni if you dont need a degree to becoem a pilot? You could save that money to help fund your training.
Also what does a bank manager know about becomming a commercial pilot. I think if you have a very strong proposal and you know what your talking about, having a degree or not shouldnt seem a problem to the manager.
Just a matter of opinion though
Good luck to all those persuing loans, hope you manage to get what you want.
Also what does a bank manager know about becomming a commercial pilot. I think if you have a very strong proposal and you know what your talking about, having a degree or not shouldnt seem a problem to the manager.
Just a matter of opinion though
Good luck to all those persuing loans, hope you manage to get what you want.
Last edited by Piper Warrior Pilot; 8th Dec 2002 at 08:31.
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Piper Pilot,
A degree is just a piece of paper is it? There speaks someone who really doesn't have a clue. Maybe when puberty kicks in you might work out what real life is about.
I don't know how many other ways there are to word this before the message gets through. Here goes for the last time:
You do not need a degree to get a professional studies loan (although god alone knows why) and you do not need a degree to gain an ATPL. Correct. Well done.
HOWEVER, there are currently a finite number of jobs available and more than enough people to fill them. This may appear arrogant but I tell you this, if we meet at an airline interview going for the same job there will only be one winner, and you will be dissappointed. You try and work out why.
A frozen ATPL and 250hrs means you can apply for a F/O job, it DOES NOT by any means put you anywhere other than the bottom of the ladder as far as employers are concerned.
Now, taking the above into account, add to it the fact that no one outside aviation gives a monkey's that you have a frozen ATPL, and that you will not have a great earnings potential with a couple of GCSE's, maybe you can see why a £45,000 loan is not such a hot idea.
I rest my case.
bow5.
A degree is just a piece of paper is it? There speaks someone who really doesn't have a clue. Maybe when puberty kicks in you might work out what real life is about.
I don't know how many other ways there are to word this before the message gets through. Here goes for the last time:
You do not need a degree to get a professional studies loan (although god alone knows why) and you do not need a degree to gain an ATPL. Correct. Well done.
HOWEVER, there are currently a finite number of jobs available and more than enough people to fill them. This may appear arrogant but I tell you this, if we meet at an airline interview going for the same job there will only be one winner, and you will be dissappointed. You try and work out why.
A frozen ATPL and 250hrs means you can apply for a F/O job, it DOES NOT by any means put you anywhere other than the bottom of the ladder as far as employers are concerned.
Now, taking the above into account, add to it the fact that no one outside aviation gives a monkey's that you have a frozen ATPL, and that you will not have a great earnings potential with a couple of GCSE's, maybe you can see why a £45,000 loan is not such a hot idea.
I rest my case.
bow5.
Last edited by bow5; 2nd Dec 2002 at 12:26.
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So god alone knows why does he? What about the fact that while richy riches mummy and daddy paid for a university education, others were out working for a living and are going to have to pay for their own training with thier own hard graft! How about the fact that those who went to uni have a 'piece of paper' while those who had to work (or choose to) have a skill to fall back on! Okay so the Airlines might like a degree on your CV , but if you have a look at entry requirements for sponsorship, most only ask for 2 A levels. What most airlines really want is experienced pilots with hours in the logbook! Bow5 you are arrogant and your full of crap. What makes you think you know better than the largest banking corporation in the world??? Oh yeah youve got a degree! So while you were at uni how were YOU learning about REAL life!
Im not trying to knock anyone with a degree, in fact I'll admit that someone with a degree has a better chance, but for Bow5 to say anyone without a degree dosnt deserve to be a professional pilot is a load of B@LL
CKS! 
Im not trying to knock anyone with a degree, in fact I'll admit that someone with a degree has a better chance, but for Bow5 to say anyone without a degree dosnt deserve to be a professional pilot is a load of B@LL
CKS!
Last edited by 2WingsOnMyWagon; 2nd Dec 2002 at 18:13.
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Bow5 you really are perverting this now. You are an arrogant, smart ass, cocky git, and there is no need for it. Well done having a degree. NO BODY CARES.
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Gees guys, I can see the chip on the shoulder from here.
2wings,
Point 1) Airlines that ask for two A-levels specify it as a minimum for application. That doesn't mean you wouldn't or shouldn't get sponsorship with 2 A-levels but it is specified as MINIMUM. Most also state that 'having a degree would be a significant advantage'. I never wrote that I thought someone without a degree should not be a professional pilot. Far from it. I was responding to the fact that people have the audacity to dismiss a degree as a 'piece of paper' paid for by rich parents. I for one worked bl**dy hard to get there, stay there and have done since leaving. If you think that everyone who goes to University has rich parents then you are a long way wide of the mark. Generally it is the complete opposite. Has it occured to you that people go to university and 'graft' to stay there and then 'pay for their own training with their own hard graft!' afterwards? Obviously not.
Point 2) How exactly does someone who has borrowed £45,000 to train to get the basic licence then become an 'experienced pilot with hours in the logbook' given the current employment prospects? Where does the money come to pay back the loan and pay for the hours? Another loan maybe.
Point 3) Maybe I am. Maybe i'm not. Depends what kind of mood i'm in I guess.
My view is that anyone who can do the training deserves to be a pilot, degree or no degree. I do, however,, have a problem with banks lending huge sums of money (£45,000 is a hell of a lot) to someone who, if they can't get a flying job, will struggle to pay it back. Banks couldn't care less if someone secures a loan then defaults on the payments. They will get their money back one way or another.
Take it easy,
bow5.
2wings,
Okay so the Airlines might like a degree on your CV , but if you have a look at entry requirements for sponsorship, most only ask for 2 A levels. What most airlines really want is experienced pilots with hours in the logbook! Bow5 you are arrogant and your full of crap.
Point 2) How exactly does someone who has borrowed £45,000 to train to get the basic licence then become an 'experienced pilot with hours in the logbook' given the current employment prospects? Where does the money come to pay back the loan and pay for the hours? Another loan maybe.
Point 3) Maybe I am. Maybe i'm not. Depends what kind of mood i'm in I guess.
My view is that anyone who can do the training deserves to be a pilot, degree or no degree. I do, however,, have a problem with banks lending huge sums of money (£45,000 is a hell of a lot) to someone who, if they can't get a flying job, will struggle to pay it back. Banks couldn't care less if someone secures a loan then defaults on the payments. They will get their money back one way or another.
Take it easy,
bow5.
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I think two issues are being confused here!
1) Unless you have an LLB or a Doctorate of Medicine (possibly an MBA) a degree is not a measure of earning potential and I frankly think it is pretty naive to assume that the proud holder of a good (language, maths or science based) degree will be a surer bet.
2) A degree will not provide any advantage over the guy with two 'A' Levels. Positive evidence of an appropriate character in your CV, your relevant performance in the interviews, psychometric tests, personality tests and sim checks will!
Ta!
Kef.
1) Unless you have an LLB or a Doctorate of Medicine (possibly an MBA) a degree is not a measure of earning potential and I frankly think it is pretty naive to assume that the proud holder of a good (language, maths or science based) degree will be a surer bet.
2) A degree will not provide any advantage over the guy with two 'A' Levels. Positive evidence of an appropriate character in your CV, your relevant performance in the interviews, psychometric tests, personality tests and sim checks will!
Ta!
Kef.
Last edited by Kefuddle_UK; 3rd Dec 2002 at 09:40.
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Chip on my shoulder! pah! Ive got my licence. Also I must wonder how you finished Uni and can still afford to pay for ATPL training? I myself went to uni and I havnt got rich parents. I left because it wasnt going to give me what i wanted and was going to leave me skint. If your degree is such a great thing why dont you use it to to make some proper money and fly for fun ?
Your second point, somebody with 45k can find other work other than direct entry airlines. Nobody said it was going to be an easy ride ( and they wernt wrong) but if its what you really want then you will find a way, even if it means taking an unrealated job to make ends meet and fly when youve got time and a little spare cash. 45k would be approx. 500pounds a month over 10 yrs (its harsh but not impossable). Also just because the industry is in a mess now, it dosnt mean its going to stay that way. Air traffic is set to double in the next 10-20 years after all.
I think youll also find that banks DO care about getting thier cash back otherwise people like darthmuppet (and others i know) wouldnt be moaning about being turned away. If you go to HSBC for a loan you WILL get risk-assesed. If they think your going to miss payments theres NO WAY there going to give you a penny especially as its unsecured. Oh yeah they will do 45k unsecured, i checked.
My final point (hopefully ). When you go for an airline interview youll get asked loads of questions and they will make judgements on your personality. If they just dont like you then 10,000 hrs a degree or whatever will not make a blind bit of difference.
Your second point, somebody with 45k can find other work other than direct entry airlines. Nobody said it was going to be an easy ride ( and they wernt wrong) but if its what you really want then you will find a way, even if it means taking an unrealated job to make ends meet and fly when youve got time and a little spare cash. 45k would be approx. 500pounds a month over 10 yrs (its harsh but not impossable). Also just because the industry is in a mess now, it dosnt mean its going to stay that way. Air traffic is set to double in the next 10-20 years after all.
I think youll also find that banks DO care about getting thier cash back otherwise people like darthmuppet (and others i know) wouldnt be moaning about being turned away. If you go to HSBC for a loan you WILL get risk-assesed. If they think your going to miss payments theres NO WAY there going to give you a penny especially as its unsecured. Oh yeah they will do 45k unsecured, i checked.
My final point (hopefully
). When you go for an airline interview youll get asked loads of questions and they will make judgements on your personality. If they just dont like you then 10,000 hrs a degree or whatever will not make a blind bit of difference.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Now then boys and girls let's all wind our necks in a touch and listen to the original loan blagger: Uncle VFE.
I borrowed more than the amount being discussed here using a peice of paper showing my qualifications on it that was barely big enough to wipe my backside on. No A-Levels and certainly no degree!
How did I get the money then I hear you ask? Well, I acted a damn sight more mature than some of the posters here seem to behave and <whispers> had the old mans house slapped down as security.
If you have no security then I would imagine you're on thin ice asking for £40k+ even if your name is Stephen Hawkin.
Well, that's my story anyway and I'm sticking to that!
VFE.
PS: Darth old chap, why do you think the moderators are going to know the facts regarding HSBC loans? Most of them are pilots not HSBC employees!! They'll probably refer you to me!
I borrowed more than the amount being discussed here using a peice of paper showing my qualifications on it that was barely big enough to wipe my backside on. No A-Levels and certainly no degree!
How did I get the money then I hear you ask? Well, I acted a damn sight more mature than some of the posters here seem to behave and <whispers> had the old mans house slapped down as security.
If you have no security then I would imagine you're on thin ice asking for £40k+ even if your name is Stephen Hawkin.
Well, that's my story anyway and I'm sticking to that!
VFE.
PS: Darth old chap, why do you think the moderators are going to know the facts regarding HSBC loans? Most of them are pilots not HSBC employees!! They'll probably refer you to me!
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Hey Muppet "DUDE"
I think its been established that you do NOT need a degree to get the loan. This has degraded into a "discussion" about pilots needing a degree to get a job in the airlines.
If I was any more chilled, Id have frostbite!
DRUGS! Just say NO!
I think its been established that you do NOT need a degree to get the loan. This has degraded into a "discussion" about pilots needing a degree to get a job in the airlines.
2wings take a chill pill DUDE!
DRUGS! Just say NO!
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so.............
It really all boils down to security, not degrees or anything else for that matter!
If you can secure the loan, I doubt any bank will ask many questions at all, they will welcome your business as there is no risk to them.
If you have no security then you become a risk so they will ask LOTS of question. The more you want the more questions they will ask and the more you will have to give them the 'hard sell'. The more qualifications and/or experience you have the better chance you will have in this case.
Obtaining the kind of money needed to pay for a CPL/IR is surely going to be VERY tough without security, ou will generally struggle to get more than £15K in this way.
T
If you can secure the loan, I doubt any bank will ask many questions at all, they will welcome your business as there is no risk to them.
If you have no security then you become a risk so they will ask LOTS of question. The more you want the more questions they will ask and the more you will have to give them the 'hard sell'. The more qualifications and/or experience you have the better chance you will have in this case.
Obtaining the kind of money needed to pay for a CPL/IR is surely going to be VERY tough without security, ou will generally struggle to get more than £15K in this way.
T
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Repeating myself: I don't have a degree and HSBC have agreed to a £10k Professional Studies Loan
However, I already have the PPL, a relevant number of hours and can contribute approx 2/3rds of the total cost myself. I also previously earned a decent salary, and have kept my bank happy in recent years.
The bank manager explained that this loan is assessed in the 'old way'. If you want a normal loan (for a car etc), your details are typed into the computer, which then makes an instant decision. With the Professional Studies Loan, the manager checks that the course you are interested in is covered under the scheme (ATPL is), then assesses the risk by looking at all relevant details and making a decision. He also phoned a better informed person at a regional/national office so he could further understand from the banks view what I wanted (And then dropped words like 'modular' in to the conversation).
I'm grateful for the loan, as it is the final top up needed to pay for the fATPL course.
F
However, I already have the PPL, a relevant number of hours and can contribute approx 2/3rds of the total cost myself. I also previously earned a decent salary, and have kept my bank happy in recent years.
The bank manager explained that this loan is assessed in the 'old way'. If you want a normal loan (for a car etc), your details are typed into the computer, which then makes an instant decision. With the Professional Studies Loan, the manager checks that the course you are interested in is covered under the scheme (ATPL is), then assesses the risk by looking at all relevant details and making a decision. He also phoned a better informed person at a regional/national office so he could further understand from the banks view what I wanted (And then dropped words like 'modular' in to the conversation).
I'm grateful for the loan, as it is the final top up needed to pay for the fATPL course.
F
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Darth, what the hell was the need for that?
Wings was only offering his opinion. There is no need for childishness like that. I know I'm not perfect, but you've stooped too low now.
Wings was only offering his opinion. There is no need for childishness like that. I know I'm not perfect, but you've stooped too low now.
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2wings,
You are right, this has rather got off topic regarding the actual loan. I think me and you may have got our wires crossed about that anyway. Bygones.
The point I was TRYING
to get across was that maybe it wasn't such a cracking idea, given the job market at the minute, for Paul Savage to try and take a £45,000 loan at the age of 18 secured on his father's business.
All I can say is that if i'm wrong about that then I don't want to be right. I sure as hell know that at the age of 18 I wasn't ready for that kind of responsibility.
Take it easy....please
bow5
You are right, this has rather got off topic regarding the actual loan. I think me and you may have got our wires crossed about that anyway. Bygones.
The point I was TRYING
to get across was that maybe it wasn't such a cracking idea, given the job market at the minute, for Paul Savage to try and take a £45,000 loan at the age of 18 secured on his father's business. All I can say is that if i'm wrong about that then I don't want to be right. I sure as hell know that at the age of 18 I wasn't ready for that kind of responsibility.
Take it easy....please
bow5
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Bow5
Maybe it isnt a good idea to take a 45k loan out whatever your age but come on, when you made your mind up to become a pro pilot would you be told? No me nether!! I dont know your personal circumstances or how your funding your training but HSBC are offering a chance to those who THEY think have a chance of eventually getting a job as a paid pilot. The point we both should be making to Paul and others in his position is: If its what you really want then fine BUT you are in for a tough time and you may end up stacking shelves or worse to make your repayments also any money you manage to save WILL get spent on renewals . Youve just got to remember why your doing it!
You got it. Look forward to our next.... "Debate"
As for Kermit the Muppet
F@CK OFF YOU PRAT!!!
Maybe it isnt a good idea to take a 45k loan out whatever your age but come on, when you made your mind up to become a pro pilot would you be told?
No me nether!! I dont know your personal circumstances or how your funding your training but HSBC are offering a chance to those who THEY think have a chance of eventually getting a job as a paid pilot. The point we both should be making to Paul and others in his position is: If its what you really want then fine BUT you are in for a tough time and you may end up stacking shelves or worse to make your repayments also any money you manage to save WILL get spent on renewals . Youve just got to remember why your doing it!
Bygones
As for Kermit the Muppet
F@CK OFF YOU PRAT!!!