Job prospects after modular ATPL (UK)? Loan or secure a job?
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No worries, good luck with it all. Let us know how you get on, never pass up an opportunity to network or get to know people.
I think I would struggle to borrow 25k without collateral and would probably struggle even more to pay it off in the event that I cannot secure a job after training. Working in flight ops is definitely a shout though, I'll look into that.
At this point, going to uni, getting a 'real' job, saving, and training, I'll probably find myself in the right-hand seat of an airliner no sooner than 30 so 2 years is no biggie especially if that means having 0 debt at the end of it.
Thanks for the advice.
At this point, going to uni, getting a 'real' job, saving, and training, I'll probably find myself in the right-hand seat of an airliner no sooner than 30 so 2 years is no biggie especially if that means having 0 debt at the end of it.
Thanks for the advice.
£25,000 is nothing in comparison. You're clearly not understanding my suggestion, so I'll try to elaborate: The most important attribute a pilot can have is perseverance. If you don't have a long term plan and stick to it you will fail. It's no different in principle from becoming a body builder or a marathon runner. My advice to my younger self is this: Get a Mon-Fri job, the higher paying the better, but not one that needs excessive training or qualifications. If it's in an airline or on an airfield so much the better. Then get a weekend job and/or deliver pizza in the evenings. Live with your parents and save 90% of what you make. Get a mobile contact and a few credit cards. Spend and pay them back in full. Take out a loan for £500 and pay it back over 6 months. Then get another loan for £1000 and do the same. One you've got £10,000 you can go somewhere sunny for a 4 week PPL (or 2 blocks of 2 weeks) After 2 years you'll have a PPL, £15,000 and a great credit record. And trust me, when it comes to borrowing money, you will have no problems once you understand what a 'credit search window' is! As for paying it off - that's no different from saving up. Plus you'll have 2 jobs and no rent. You have to want it.
If you eat, sleep and breathe in order to facilitate becoming a pilot then you'll be in the RHS in 3 years. Or you can just dream.
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I'm struggling to understand your motivation to be honest. You say you're a year or two away from finishing secondary school, which would make you 16. You say you want to be a pilot but for some strange reason not until after you're 30. Even starting until 18 you could be applying for airline jobs aged 21 if you do thingsin the right order. If Pilot is actually your stated career goal, then every other job only exists to support that goal. Every year you delay will cost you £250,000 at a minimum (based on your end of career salary)
£25,000 is nothing in comparison. You're clearly not understanding my suggestion, so I'll try to elaborate: The most important attribute a pilot can have is perseverance. If you don't have a long term plan and stick to it you will fail. It's no different in principle from becoming a body builder or a marathon runner. My advice to my younger self is this: Get a Mon-Fri job, the higher paying the better, but not one that needs excessive training or qualifications. If it's in an airline or on an airfield so much the better. Then get a weekend job and/or deliver pizza in the evenings. Live with your parents and save 90% of what you make. Get a mobile contact and a few credit cards. Spend and pay them back in full. Take out a loan for £500 and pay it back over 6 months. Then get another loan for £1000 and do the same. One you've got £10,000 you can go somewhere sunny for a 4 week PPL (or 2 blocks of 2 weeks) After 2 years you'll have a PPL, £15,000 and a great credit record. And trust me, when it comes to borrowing money, you will have no problems once you understand what a 'credit search window' is! As for paying it off - that's no different from saving up. Plus you'll have 2 jobs and no rent. You have to want it.
If you eat, sleep and breathe in order to facilitate becoming a pilot then you'll be in the RHS in 3 years. Or you can just dream.
£25,000 is nothing in comparison. You're clearly not understanding my suggestion, so I'll try to elaborate: The most important attribute a pilot can have is perseverance. If you don't have a long term plan and stick to it you will fail. It's no different in principle from becoming a body builder or a marathon runner. My advice to my younger self is this: Get a Mon-Fri job, the higher paying the better, but not one that needs excessive training or qualifications. If it's in an airline or on an airfield so much the better. Then get a weekend job and/or deliver pizza in the evenings. Live with your parents and save 90% of what you make. Get a mobile contact and a few credit cards. Spend and pay them back in full. Take out a loan for £500 and pay it back over 6 months. Then get another loan for £1000 and do the same. One you've got £10,000 you can go somewhere sunny for a 4 week PPL (or 2 blocks of 2 weeks) After 2 years you'll have a PPL, £15,000 and a great credit record. And trust me, when it comes to borrowing money, you will have no problems once you understand what a 'credit search window' is! As for paying it off - that's no different from saving up. Plus you'll have 2 jobs and no rent. You have to want it.
If you eat, sleep and breathe in order to facilitate becoming a pilot then you'll be in the RHS in 3 years. Or you can just dream.
- 4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
- Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
- 20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
- Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
- Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.
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hobbit,
Quote:
Several employers are probably looking for your ability to pay for a type rating.
Are you sure? The easyjet pilots (both FOs and Capt. when I've had the chance) that I've spoken to tell me that typically easyjet will type rate them as well. Then again almost all of them joined as integrated cadets so I could be wrong.
Quote:
Several employers are probably looking for your ability to pay for a type rating.
Are you sure? The easyjet pilots (both FOs and Capt. when I've had the chance) that I've spoken to tell me that typically easyjet will type rate them as well. Then again almost all of them joined as integrated cadets so I could be wrong.
Quote:
You may be well advised to have a backup career/means of income
My plan is to get a degree in possibly an engineering field or go to college as a tradesman then use that career to save money and do flight training on the side or save my 50-60k and do the modular in one go.
You may be well advised to have a backup career/means of income
My plan is to get a degree in possibly an engineering field or go to college as a tradesman then use that career to save money and do flight training on the side or save my 50-60k and do the modular in one go.
To echo other comments on this thread:
There is a world of commercial flying outside of the airline industry. This is not a bad thing. Some of the most interesting jobs can be found in:
- flight instruction
- aerial survey
- paradropping
- air ambulance (aeroplanes, not helicopters)
- cargo
- VVIP business jets
- banner towing
Some are well paid, others are not (flight instructors, for example, often earn less than minimum wage). Some can be a lot of fun. Some may be your only employment option on more than one occasion; especially since Brexit removed a number of opportunities for those who didn't add an European license. Don't make the mistake of assuming they are somehow a 'lesser' job. I have flown with more than one airline pilot who simply could not cope with the demands of GA (General Aviation; basically a term for the above list) flying, either from a piloting perspective (i.e. one guy just couldn't hand fly the aircraft, without an autopilot) or operational (such as dealing with the very different way that the ragged end of GA operates compared to the airlines; you end up having to be your own flight planning department, for example).
You may find you end up doing one of these as your first flying job. A surprising percentage of newly qualified CPLs have done an FI rating to do so. I strongly suggest that you don't discount them as an option, and I also suggest that you do not fall prey to SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome: being desperate to fly the newest Boeing/Airbus to the exclusion of all else).
If the tone and content of my posts haven't made it clear: you appear to be very enthusiastic about entering a very volatile industry that comes with no guarantees. That's fine. But please do be aware, it can be utterly brutal. Do not bet the farm; do not end up flying for free either, please...(this used to happen recently. It might rear it's ugly head again). I recommend you factor in some cynicism to your calculations.(especially with regard to income and flight training costs).
Hobbit
(FI, former bizjet captain, former air ambulance pilot/paradrop pilot/aerial survey, etc etc etc)
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I'm not sure what you mean by this. When I finish school I will be 17 and then I will pursue higher education in uni in something non-aviation related so I can have a secure stable source of income to fund my training and as a plan B if aviation doesn't work out. I am also committed to doing this with as little debt as possible simply because if I finish my ATPLs with 25k of loans (plus interest!) and cannot find a good paying job then I will not be able to pay it back (even if I do it will be a setback when it comes to mortgaging a property as I have additional loan repayments to make). Doing some quick maths:
4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.
4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.
Working two jobs I do not think will bring you £50k.
ATPLs will certainly cost more than £25k in loans; you're probably looking at £100-80k.
I suggest revising your plan: I agree with most of it. But I don't think the maths adds up.
So as you can see my long-term plan (which you heavily suggested I stick to) will see me in the RHS of a Bus at best case maybe at 27 if I can get an airline job right after finishing training (not impossible if I pick my flight school right) and maybe 35 if it drags on. However your suggestion for me is to leave school, take out bigger and bigger loans to up my credit score until I can pay for a PPL and then...what? As mentioned above, no matter how well I do in my ATPL exams, airlines will be looking for real-world experience (which is something that uni and a good job can get me). You make it seem like for some strange and unknown reason I'm intentionally putting off being a pilot until my middle years which is just untrue, every step in the plan above is one step closer to a seat in the cockpit. As I said already my family is not all that well endowed and there is absolutely no way I could have my mum sponsor me through modular right after I leave school (especially because she's just a few years away from repaying the mortgage and I'm not about to ask her to put the house down to fund me). And to add, if I had put in my top post that I plan to become a fully fledged pilot at 20 years old, I guarantee you that you would have tsked and thought "wow, that boy is naive". Motivation and perseverance are important but so is thinking realistically.
-has a CPL
-has the rating they need already, or is willing to self-sponsor a TR
-has hours (more = better) or jet experience
-(for some operators) been to the 'right' integrated school
-can pass an interview, group exercises, etc
-is likely to work well with other pilots
If I were you, I would follow the same broad plan, but find a way to get other people to pay for your training (not your parents) or reduce your costs considerably. The only immediate way to do that (that I can think of) is to get a PPL following the plan you've laid out. Then build hours as an FI or paradropping (glider tugging?) and then save up for the next bit (CPL, IR) etc.
The only problem with that is, it will take awhile, you will really have to work to find those opportunities, and you seem fixed on flying airlines, which may mean you won't want/be able to sustain the motivation to go fly light aircraft for years first.
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50k p.a. (at 21 years?) is £ 34,465.92 after tax, if you're resident in Scotland and with a Scottish student loan. https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
Working two jobs I do not think will bring you £50k.
ATPLs will certainly cost more than £25k in loans; you're probably looking at £100-80k.
I suggest revising your plan: I agree with most of it. But I don't think the maths adds up.
Airlines will 100% not be looking for real-world experience outside of flying (that you get from uni and a good job). They are looking for:
-has a CPL
-has the rating they need already, or is willing to self-sponsor a TR
-has hours (more = better) or jet experience
-(for some operators) been to the 'right' integrated school
-can pass an interview, group exercises, etc
-is likely to work well with other pilots
If I were you, I would follow the same broad plan, but find a way to get other people to pay for your training (not your parents) or reduce your costs considerably. The only immediate way to do that (that I can think of) is to get a PPL following the plan you've laid out. Then build hours as an FI or paradropping (glider tugging?) and then save up for the next bit (CPL, IR) etc.
The only problem with that is, it will take awhile, you will really have to work to find those opportunities, and you seem fixed on flying airlines, which may mean you won't want/be able to sustain the motivation to go fly light aircraft for years first.
Working two jobs I do not think will bring you £50k.
ATPLs will certainly cost more than £25k in loans; you're probably looking at £100-80k.
I suggest revising your plan: I agree with most of it. But I don't think the maths adds up.
Airlines will 100% not be looking for real-world experience outside of flying (that you get from uni and a good job). They are looking for:
-has a CPL
-has the rating they need already, or is willing to self-sponsor a TR
-has hours (more = better) or jet experience
-(for some operators) been to the 'right' integrated school
-can pass an interview, group exercises, etc
-is likely to work well with other pilots
If I were you, I would follow the same broad plan, but find a way to get other people to pay for your training (not your parents) or reduce your costs considerably. The only immediate way to do that (that I can think of) is to get a PPL following the plan you've laid out. Then build hours as an FI or paradropping (glider tugging?) and then save up for the next bit (CPL, IR) etc.
The only problem with that is, it will take awhile, you will really have to work to find those opportunities, and you seem fixed on flying airlines, which may mean you won't want/be able to sustain the motivation to go fly light aircraft for years first.
Wow, £15k of £50k is taxed? Maybe I should start being more cynical, that's criminal in my eyes
Are you sure about ATPL being 100k in loans? Bristol groundschool has ATPL(a) courses at £3k and while I appreciate that BGS is only the theory part I've mostly heard £50-60k quoted as a price for the modular.
Flying a/c to build hours through glider tugging (bit of a rare breed here in the UK, we mostly use winch launch) and skydiving etc. is definitely a good suggestion.
I know I seem right now very over optimistic about working for the airlines and completely ignorant of the work that I'll have to put in before getting there, but I truly believe I have the motivation to do as you suggest and fly GA for a few years. Any aviation is still aviation in my eyes, that will never change
I've also been looking into opportunities at the RAF. I spoke to a recruiter about getting in as a pilot and after he'd finished chuckling he told me that out of 35k applicants last year only 35 were selected to go through pilot training, keep in mind only a small portion will be flying fastjets. It's really really competitive. I'm in the air cadets though, we go to the glider field every few months and do 2 launches at a time. Lots of fun and definitely a good starting point to progress into aviation further.
Thanks for the help hobbit, you've been very kind. Take care.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. When I finish school I will be 17 and then I will pursue higher education in uni in something non-aviation related so I can have a secure stable source of income to fund my training and as a plan B if aviation doesn't work out. I am also committed to doing this with as little debt as possible simply because if I finish my ATPLs with 25k of loans (plus interest!) and cannot find a good paying job then I will not be able to pay it back (even if I do it will be a setback when it comes to mortgaging a property as I have additional loan repayments to make). Doing some quick maths:
- 4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
- Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
- 20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
- Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
- Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.
Now, if you want a masters degree, go for it. But in those 4 years you could realistically have a fATPL. There are a few points I made which I suspect you haven't understood fully - I don't want to sound like a patronising c**t, but I probably am so that's how it comes across. I'm not encouraging you to get into debt. You're a kid with no credit history. You're going to need a good one in life no matter what career you end up in. The way to get a credit history is to borrow and be seen to be paying it back. This advice goes for anyone: Get a phone contract and pay your bill every month - will you at least agree that you need one of those? Next take it a small loan of 500-1000 over a short period and paying all back. You'll pay maybe £50 in interest for a loan you didn't need, but you've now got a satisfied loan on your credit history. The more of those the better. Building a credit history takes time, so start asap. Get a credit card or two and keep the balance below 10% to get maximum points for utilisation. These are all practical things that will help you get a loan or mortgage later in life.
My suggestion is that you work like a bastard to save money. But there really is no point in saving it all up - because your goal should be to get into a flying job ASAP. Would you rather stay flying at 22 or 32? Be honest...
Dont worry what other people think - I would respect you more if you had said that you "want it all at age 20, oh and please give me advice to help me get there". We all have things we wish we had known or done differently.
A £25K loan from HSBC will cost you £335 a month. That's nothing for someone with 2 jobs and no outgoings.
Some people borrow ALL the money, some people save all the money - I'm suggesting 50/50 as a sensible and achievable compromise. This is the thing that you really
have to understand, and I'm not sure you do yet: People don't live forever, and Pilots have to retire at 65. That means you have a limited window to make money. A senior TRE might retire on £200k. If they had started their career ONE year earlier they would be £200k richer (less their wage before) - so let's be clear - you need to get your career started ASAP, and borrowing £25,000 while living at home and working 2 jobs is NOT a risky thing to do.
I'm not - as you interpreted it - encouraging you to take out loads of loans and get a PPL. In suggesting that you work hard, save up and along the way get a PPL, your ATPL exams and some hour building with that money. Then at some point borrow the remainder to accelerate your progress. Hour building can be done at weekends. The initial PPL can be done in the first year using your holiday allowance, your CBIR can be done in the second year in a similar fashion. Once you have you fATPL you're not going to magically get a job - so you can continue working just like before and use that money to pay back the loans early so the risk is negligible.
There's a reason people don't just save up their whole lives and buy a house when they're nearly retired.
Literally anyone who lives with their parents, has average intelligence and an EXCEPTIONAL work ethic can start with no money and be a commercial pilot in 3-4 years. Eat, sleep, work, fly. I've done my hardest to explain it to you but that's as much a I can do. I can't understand it for you 😜
Professional Student
I know I seem right now very over optimistic about working for the airlines and completely ignorant of the work that I'll have to put in before getting there, but I truly believe I have the motivation to do as you suggest and fly GA for a few years. Any aviation is still aviation in my eyes, that will never change
I've also been looking into opportunities at the RAF. I spoke to a recruiter about getting in as a pilot and after he'd finished chuckling he told me that out of 35k applicants last year only 35 were selected to go through pilot training, keep in mind only a small portion will be flying fastjets. It's really really competitive. I'm in the air cadets though, we go to the glider field every few months and do 2 launches at a time. Lots of fun and definitely a good starting point to progress into aviation further.
Thanks for the help hobbit, you've been very kind. Take care.
I've also been looking into opportunities at the RAF. I spoke to a recruiter about getting in as a pilot and after he'd finished chuckling he told me that out of 35k applicants last year only 35 were selected to go through pilot training, keep in mind only a small portion will be flying fastjets. It's really really competitive. I'm in the air cadets though, we go to the glider field every few months and do 2 launches at a time. Lots of fun and definitely a good starting point to progress into aviation further.
Thanks for the help hobbit, you've been very kind. Take care.
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Don't forget to budget for the extras though as these quickly add up to more than you may initially think!
- Traveling to/from flight school.
- Living costs for any full-time portions of training when you are not working.
- PPL study material in addition to your ATPL's.
- Accommodation and travel costs whilst away for exams.
- Exam fees.
- Medical and any referral fees if anything requires investigation.
- Landing fees whilst hour building. Fly to new destinations to develop your skills. Burning holes in the sky in the local area is utterly pointless. A lot, if not most flight schools will include landing fees at home base.
- Equipment: Headset, maps etc.
- Issuing of your licence.
I've probably missed a few things, but you get the point! Costs will inevitably creep up year after year, so add a bit extra to account for this. The cost of avgas went up significantly for a few months last year which had an impact on things. When you're burning 25-35 litres of the stuff every hour, that quickly adds up.
I'm not trying to scare you, but it is very easy to forget about the things that'll drain your funds outside of fine in the air!
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Your flying costs are probably do-able for 50-60k, but this can vary wildly depending on where you train and how you go about your hour building etc. Also, don't necessarily go for the cheapest school you find. Visit the different places you're thinking about training at and look at feedback on here to see where you feel most comfortable with.
Don't forget to budget for the extras though as these quickly add up to more than you may initially think!
I've probably missed a few things, but you get the point! Costs will inevitably creep up year after year, so add a bit extra to account for this. The cost of avgas went up significantly for a few months last year which had an impact on things. When you're burning 25-35 litres of the stuff every hour, that quickly adds up.
I'm not trying to scare you, but it is very easy to forget about the things that'll drain your funds outside of fine in the air!
Don't forget to budget for the extras though as these quickly add up to more than you may initially think!
- Traveling to/from flight school.
- Living costs for any full-time portions of training when you are not working.
- PPL study material in addition to your ATPL's.
- Accommodation and travel costs whilst away for exams.
- Exam fees.
- Medical and any referral fees if anything requires investigation.
- Landing fees whilst hour building. Fly to new destinations to develop your skills. Burning holes in the sky in the local area is utterly pointless. A lot, if not most flight schools will include landing fees at home base.
- Equipment: Headset, maps etc.
- Issuing of your licence.
I've probably missed a few things, but you get the point! Costs will inevitably creep up year after year, so add a bit extra to account for this. The cost of avgas went up significantly for a few months last year which had an impact on things. When you're burning 25-35 litres of the stuff every hour, that quickly adds up.
I'm not trying to scare you, but it is very easy to forget about the things that'll drain your funds outside of fine in the air!
I understand that the cost will probably vary by mileage and I also assume that the more you dish out to a flight school the higher the quality (perhaps of the education but I'm more referring to employment opportunities) so I will definitely look around before I start anywhere. Naturally there are going to be the "hidden" costs which I will definitely keep an eye out for
I've heard that hour building is a little cheaper in the States, do you know whether this happens to be the case? I would imagine that the 1k you fork over to Delta for the flight there and back (ironic isn't it!) and any bureaucratic stuff like visas would probably offset any financial benefit it may hold but as always I will dig deeper into it. Thanks again
Firget price. The No 1 advantage of flying in the US is time efficiency, due to weather. You will lose so many training days in the UK due to weather. When the plane is yours the weather won't be good enough, and when it is everyone else wants to use the aircraft. The US is perfect for training quickly and hour building efficiently. When you are training you are learning a motor skill and the more frequently you train the more you will retain and the cheaper it will become.
Hello again,
I understand that the cost will probably vary by mileage and I also assume that the more you dish out to a flight school the higher the quality (perhaps of the education but I'm more referring to employment opportunities) so I will definitely look around before I start anywhere. Naturally there are going to be the "hidden" costs which I will definitely keep an eye out for
I've heard that hour building is a little cheaper in the States, do you know whether this happens to be the case? I would imagine that the 1k you fork over to Delta for the flight there and back (ironic isn't it!) and any bureaucratic stuff like visas would probably offset any financial benefit it may hold but as always I will dig deeper into it. Thanks again
I understand that the cost will probably vary by mileage and I also assume that the more you dish out to a flight school the higher the quality (perhaps of the education but I'm more referring to employment opportunities) so I will definitely look around before I start anywhere. Naturally there are going to be the "hidden" costs which I will definitely keep an eye out for
I've heard that hour building is a little cheaper in the States, do you know whether this happens to be the case? I would imagine that the 1k you fork over to Delta for the flight there and back (ironic isn't it!) and any bureaucratic stuff like visas would probably offset any financial benefit it may hold but as always I will dig deeper into it. Thanks again
More and more places are bonding which is good but a Ryanair, for example, will expect you to write them a cheque for £25K to start the training with them.
Do please consider the advice of others, you really can be sat in the RHS of a jet by 25 latest if you go after it.
You said that you’d be taking home £40K in your plan and saving £20K of it. Afraid not, you’re going to be living at home and eating beans and rice for lunch, rice and beans for dinner. Spend more than £5K a year and you’re doing something wrong. Work 50 hours a week and you can save an absolute fortune if you absolutely insist on not having any debt.
Debt isn’t as cheap as it was with interest rates rising but if a £20K personal loan gets you working a year earlier then just take the loan and pay it back at the same rate you’d have been saving. Difference is you’re paying it back from an Airbus cockpit rather than selling insurance. Worst case you don’t get a job and just continue to pay it back, whilst living it home, spending nothing. You wouldn’t turn down a mortgage on principle and just rent for your entire life, this isn’t that different.
I see politeness by the OP but also naivety by the bucketloads! You are young so it is perhaps to be expected?
You seem to think it is simply a matter of step 2 follows step 1 and bang, you are an airline pilot? It should be but it isn't. The most important factor in "making it" is who you know!
I think you should find a professional airline pilot locally and spend an hour or two buying him/her coffee and then rack brains as to what exactly was involved to get to their position? I think you would be very surprised at how much work it involved, a better understanding of the costs AND just how much luck? Many trainee pilots spend many tens of thousands of pounds, miss out of the luck so never get a career out of it.
The reality is it is a mental cutthroat business that takes no prisoners at all. Additionally if you get there be aware that although your mates would think highly of you, your employer would certainly hate you and would be constantly trying to undermine and reduce your renumeration and benefits as profits should go to shareholders not employees and especially not pilots!
One or two exceptions but that is generally what I found in a 33 year flying career. Good luck!
You seem to think it is simply a matter of step 2 follows step 1 and bang, you are an airline pilot? It should be but it isn't. The most important factor in "making it" is who you know!
I think you should find a professional airline pilot locally and spend an hour or two buying him/her coffee and then rack brains as to what exactly was involved to get to their position? I think you would be very surprised at how much work it involved, a better understanding of the costs AND just how much luck? Many trainee pilots spend many tens of thousands of pounds, miss out of the luck so never get a career out of it.
The reality is it is a mental cutthroat business that takes no prisoners at all. Additionally if you get there be aware that although your mates would think highly of you, your employer would certainly hate you and would be constantly trying to undermine and reduce your renumeration and benefits as profits should go to shareholders not employees and especially not pilots!
One or two exceptions but that is generally what I found in a 33 year flying career. Good luck!
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Firget price. The No 1 advantage of flying in the US is time efficiency, due to weather. You will lose so many training days in the UK due to weather. When the plane is yours the weather won't be good enough, and when it is everyone else wants to use the aircraft. The US is perfect for training quickly and hour building efficiently. When you are training you are learning a motor skill and the more frequently you train the more you will retain and the cheaper it will become.
- What do I tell the bank the money is for? Debt consolidation?
- I have read online that even if you repay your loans you are considered to have lower credit if you take out more than a couple of loans over a short space of time so I can't see this whole borrow-repay-borrow-repay schtick being good for credit in the long run.
- My bank doesn't lend to those in full time education (i.e. university) so realistically I can't even start building credit until 20.
- Do the credit rating companies care how long it takes to repay the loan? What if I take out a loan and repay it in full the next day?
- I assume I could literally just pop the money into a current/instant access isa account (preferably with a different bank), top it up with the interest, and just leave it to pay off for however long it takes?
Last edited by alexeyAP; 5th Jul 2023 at 21:30. Reason: typo
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It’s not really been mentioned but are you also aware you may need 25/30K for a type rating when you finish training?
More and more places are bonding which is good but a Ryanair, for example, will expect you to write them a cheque for £25K to start the training with them.
Do please consider the advice of others, you really can be sat in the RHS of a jet by 25 latest if you go after it.
You said that you’d be taking home £40K in your plan and saving £20K of it. Afraid not, you’re going to be living at home and eating beans and rice for lunch, rice and beans for dinner. Spend more than £5K a year and you’re doing something wrong. Work 50 hours a week and you can save an absolute fortune if you absolutely insist on not having any debt.
Debt isn’t as cheap as it was with interest rates rising but if a £20K personal loan gets you working a year earlier then just take the loan and pay it back at the same rate you’d have been saving. Difference is you’re paying it back from an Airbus cockpit rather than selling insurance. Worst case you don’t get a job and just continue to pay it back, whilst living it home, spending nothing. You wouldn’t turn down a mortgage on principle and just rent for your entire life, this isn’t that different.
More and more places are bonding which is good but a Ryanair, for example, will expect you to write them a cheque for £25K to start the training with them.
Do please consider the advice of others, you really can be sat in the RHS of a jet by 25 latest if you go after it.
You said that you’d be taking home £40K in your plan and saving £20K of it. Afraid not, you’re going to be living at home and eating beans and rice for lunch, rice and beans for dinner. Spend more than £5K a year and you’re doing something wrong. Work 50 hours a week and you can save an absolute fortune if you absolutely insist on not having any debt.
Debt isn’t as cheap as it was with interest rates rising but if a £20K personal loan gets you working a year earlier then just take the loan and pay it back at the same rate you’d have been saving. Difference is you’re paying it back from an Airbus cockpit rather than selling insurance. Worst case you don’t get a job and just continue to pay it back, whilst living it home, spending nothing. You wouldn’t turn down a mortgage on principle and just rent for your entire life, this isn’t that different.
). Taking out a loan will probably be mandatory for me at this rate, and I do fully agree with you that it will probably be cheaper (in terms of % salary) to pay it off from a cockpit than save it while flipping burgers. About bonding, the blokes I've spoken to in the flightdeck have told me (or implied) that Easyjet for instance will take a fresh pilot and type rate them on the Bus (whether this is bonded or it is perhaps included in the cost of the training program is something I don't know), I'm not sure how it is for other airlines. In any case I could just find an airline that will bond me for a bizjet or an ejet or a Dash 8 for instance (probably far easier said than done) then lay low for a few years, pay off the 25k from before and take out a new loan for the type rating. We'll see how it goes honestly, anything could happen in the future and laying out a basic plan and getting involved in aviation is the most I can do at this point.
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I see politeness by the OP but also naivety by the bucketloads! You are young so it is perhaps to be expected?
You seem to think it is simply a matter of step 2 follows step 1 and bang, you are an airline pilot? It should be but it isn't. The most important factor in "making it" is who you know!
I think you should find a professional airline pilot locally and spend an hour or two buying him/her coffee and then rack brains as to what exactly was involved to get to their position? I think you would be very surprised at how much work it involved, a better understanding of the costs AND just how much luck? Many trainee pilots spend many tens of thousands of pounds, miss out of the luck so never get a career out of it.
The reality is it is a mental cutthroat business that takes no prisoners at all. Additionally if you get there be aware that although your mates would think highly of you, your employer would certainly hate you and would be constantly trying to undermine and reduce your renumeration and benefits as profits should go to shareholders not employees and especially not pilots!
One or two exceptions but that is generally what I found in a 33 year flying career. Good luck!
You seem to think it is simply a matter of step 2 follows step 1 and bang, you are an airline pilot? It should be but it isn't. The most important factor in "making it" is who you know!
I think you should find a professional airline pilot locally and spend an hour or two buying him/her coffee and then rack brains as to what exactly was involved to get to their position? I think you would be very surprised at how much work it involved, a better understanding of the costs AND just how much luck? Many trainee pilots spend many tens of thousands of pounds, miss out of the luck so never get a career out of it.
The reality is it is a mental cutthroat business that takes no prisoners at all. Additionally if you get there be aware that although your mates would think highly of you, your employer would certainly hate you and would be constantly trying to undermine and reduce your renumeration and benefits as profits should go to shareholders not employees and especially not pilots!
One or two exceptions but that is generally what I found in a 33 year flying career. Good luck!
About networking with pilots - I often stop by the cockpit and ask the FA (very politely) if I could chat with the pilots after I've been on a flight (usually with RYR or EZY). From what they've told me the FOs are all pretty much integrated (and you can tell by their age might I add) and the Capt. did it so long ago that things have changed significantly, as discussed there is no way I could afford integrated nor would I want to do it in the first place. I'll keep asking though, it's always great being in the cockpit and I can always learn something from the pilots.
I do remember one of my mum's students (uni lecturer) going to study aviation medicine or something like that and we did meet in a cafe to discuss how to be a pilot - but to be honest it's been so long ago that the only things I have left from the encounter is a stack of issues of Flyer magazine (which albeit makes for some good reading) and also the flight school she went to - Tayside (which entered administration just this year). One of my mum's work colleague's son's mates is apparently also pursuing aviation so I will try and get hold of his number and ask him about it. Honestly call me optimistic but I firmly believe that hard work beats luck at least 9 out of 10 times, if I put in the hard work (starting now) I could definitely make this dream a reality. Thanks for your insight, 33 of flying years is bloody impressive and I can just imagine how much more sound wisdom you have to offer
I'll drop you a PM if I ever have any questions. Have a good one.
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Hello again, read post above re the money (admittedly I was being a bit cheeky/optimistic thinking I could save £20k at that rate, although for the record I wouldn't mind eating rice and beans and living in a swamp for a couple of years if it gets me to flying ). Taking out a loan will probably be mandatory for me at this rate, and I do fully agree with you that it will probably be cheaper (in terms of % salary) to pay it off from a cockpit than save it while flipping burgers. About bonding, the blokes I've spoken to in the flightdeck have told me (or implied) that Easyjet for instance will take a fresh pilot and type rate them on the Bus (whether this is bonded or it is perhaps included in the cost of the training program is something I don't know), I'm not sure how it is for other airlines. In any case I could just find an airline that will bond me for a bizjet or an ejet or a Dash 8 for instance (probably far easier said than done) then lay low for a few years, pay off the 25k from before and take out a new loan for the type rating. We'll see how it goes honestly, anything could happen in the future and laying out a basic plan and getting involved in aviation is the most I can do at this point.
). Taking out a loan will probably be mandatory for me at this rate, and I do fully agree with you that it will probably be cheaper (in terms of % salary) to pay it off from a cockpit than save it while flipping burgers. About bonding, the blokes I've spoken to in the flightdeck have told me (or implied) that Easyjet for instance will take a fresh pilot and type rate them on the Bus (whether this is bonded or it is perhaps included in the cost of the training program is something I don't know), I'm not sure how it is for other airlines. In any case I could just find an airline that will bond me for a bizjet or an ejet or a Dash 8 for instance (probably far easier said than done) then lay low for a few years, pay off the 25k from before and take out a new loan for the type rating. We'll see how it goes honestly, anything could happen in the future and laying out a basic plan and getting involved in aviation is the most I can do at this point.Professional Student
At the risk of saying the same things over again....
How about ten years?
For all of your twenties, whilst your contemporaries are out partying, going on holiday, earning more, and so on? (I know you think you can earn £50k straight out of uni. This is - unfortunately - very unlikely. I would love to be proved wrong.)
(my bold). Yes, it is far easier said than done. I think you'll find that in reality, 'just' being bonded for a bizjet/ejet/Dash 8 is the end and very bloody desirable goal for a very large percentage of commercial pilots. This should include you! It is not just a stepping stone onto the higher plane of existence (#sarcasm) that is airline flying.
I guarantee you that if you end up saying something like that in conversation with an experienced pilot - one who may well be involved in their operation's recruitment processes in some way - you will piss them off. Even if they are that superior form of life that is the Airline Pilot (#stillsarcasm).
You're optimistic.
I agree. Go for it. Hard work is important. However, you will need luck too. You will need to end up being in the right place at the right time, somehow.
Just be aware that it is almost certainly going to be a LOT harder than you think, given what you've said. Also, be warned; the aviation industry goes up and down in cycles, traditionally about a seven year cycle. We're riding high right now. In the future, there 100% will be a downturn again; and it will either be very hard to get a first flying job, or you run the very real risk of being made redundant (again) because of downsizing or companies going bust.
No company is immune. Remember that little operator called Flybe, that went bust twice? The first time - although a lot of people could see the signs - it still went kaput, and spectacularly so. That was after decades of operation; it was seen as a safe bet for ages.
You need to go find out if you can pass a class 1 medical first, before you spend any money/take out a whopping great big loan. Find out if there are any showstoppers on the medical front first.
For all of your twenties, whilst your contemporaries are out partying, going on holiday, earning more, and so on? (I know you think you can earn £50k straight out of uni. This is - unfortunately - very unlikely. I would love to be proved wrong.)
..In any case I could just find an airline that will bond me for a bizjet or an ejet or a Dash 8 for instance (probably far easier said than done) then lay low for a few years, pay off the 25k from before and take out a new loan for the type rating. We'll see how it goes honestly, anything could happen in the future and laying out a basic plan and getting involved in aviation is the most I can do at this point.
I guarantee you that if you end up saying something like that in conversation with an experienced pilot - one who may well be involved in their operation's recruitment processes in some way - you will piss them off. Even if they are that superior form of life that is the Airline Pilot (#stillsarcasm).
You're optimistic.
Just be aware that it is almost certainly going to be a LOT harder than you think, given what you've said. Also, be warned; the aviation industry goes up and down in cycles, traditionally about a seven year cycle. We're riding high right now. In the future, there 100% will be a downturn again; and it will either be very hard to get a first flying job, or you run the very real risk of being made redundant (again) because of downsizing or companies going bust.
No company is immune. Remember that little operator called Flybe, that went bust twice? The first time - although a lot of people could see the signs - it still went kaput, and spectacularly so. That was after decades of operation; it was seen as a safe bet for ages.
You need to go find out if you can pass a class 1 medical first, before you spend any money/take out a whopping great big loan. Find out if there are any showstoppers on the medical front first.