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Flying in Europe - Low level jobs

Old 30th Apr 2020, 16:02
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: South Africa
Posts: 5
Flying in Europe - Low level jobs

Hi all,

New guy so sorry if I am in the wrong section.

So my girlfriend and I are seriously considering moving to Germany. (Yes she is a citizen, so I can get the right to work there).
She's a scientist, so I believe she will be able to find a job in that country.

My background is diverse: 8 years a C-130 navigator, became a C-130 loadmaster to pay for my CPL. So now I have a South African ME IR CPL, with frozen ATPL.
Hopefully, once we can get out of our COVID lock-down, I can add the instructor qualification to my name as well.

I know the industry has now taken a knock like never before. I always wanted to into airlines (might have had a shot at my airline's cadet programme, but think that point is moot now), but I also enjoy flying enough to give instruction or the odd charter or whatever job you might find.
I'm also open to other aviation-related jobs, or even non-related to get started.

So, my question then - do you guys think you can make a living in Europe?

Our aviation industry won't have space for me, of that I'm certain.

Thanks for you inputs.

Regards,
Erich
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Old 30th Apr 2020, 22:53
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
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Originally Posted by Nav_Tech View Post
Hi all,

New guy so sorry if I am in the wrong section.

So my girlfriend and I are seriously considering moving to Germany. (Yes she is a citizen, so I can get the right to work there).
She's a scientist, so I believe she will be able to find a job in that country.

My background is diverse: 8 years a C-130 navigator, became a C-130 loadmaster to pay for my CPL. So now I have a South African ME IR CPL, with frozen ATPL.
Hopefully, once we can get out of our COVID lock-down, I can add the instructor qualification to my name as well.

I know the industry has now taken a knock like never before. I always wanted to into airlines (might have had a shot at my airline's cadet programme, but think that point is moot now), but I also enjoy flying enough to give instruction or the odd charter or whatever job you might find.
I'm also open to other aviation-related jobs, or even non-related to get started.

So, my question then - do you guys think you can make a living in Europe?

Our aviation industry won't have space for me, of that I'm certain.

Thanks for you inputs.

Regards,
Erich
Erich, are there no jobs in Africa “low level”? Like Wildlife Protection or something - government run maybe?

I’ve just had to give up on my dream: there’s going to be too many Type Rated airline pilots around - I have 1000 hours FI & can’t compete with 9000+ pilots so was considering Africa!

Good luck, though mate.

PS DEA Diamond Executive Aviation. DA42 DA62 Maritime Surveillance. All Single Pilot MEIR. 1 Sensor Operator onboard too - ex-military.
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Old 1st May 2020, 06:53
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: South Africa
Posts: 5
Hi,

In theory, yes But most people want 500 hours, even to fly a 206. Couple that with a pay of EUR300/month... Well yeah, you go figure. 18 year-olds can go do when they still live with their parents, I unfortunately can't do that any more.

No way to get into the government business, I'm of the wrong persuasion and ancestry.

They way I am trying to calculate it: in SA our minimum wage is EUR160 per month. Compared to Germany's EUR1500, where you can actually live off it. (Yes, I also know living expenses are more in Europe, I'm under no illusion. But
At least my future wife is a highly qualified scientist, so that would help the bottom line.

(To be sure, there are good pilot jobs in the country (or until 2 months ago), you just need 1 000hrs on a C208 to get that job).

I think I'd rather go take my chances in Europe. Even in another field than here.

Thanks, and hope you come right too.
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Old 1st May 2020, 10:57
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: From the Hills
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Nav_Tech, Most SPO type jobs on piston twins in Europe will require normally 500 hours and quite often 700 - 1000 hours. As an Ex Nav and Load Master you may have a better chance of getting employed as a MSO on some of the SPO type work.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 00:47
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: London
Posts: 26
If you are looking for the quickest path, do your EASA PPL conversion first and add your FI to it otherwise you need to sit the EASA ATPL Theory.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 16:40
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Join Date: Apr 2020
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Originally Posted by Boldpilot2000 View Post
If you are looking for the quickest path, do your EASA PPL conversion first and add your FI to it otherwise you need to sit the EASA ATPL Theory.
Thank you, will look into that. Sorry for the noob question, but EASA is totally new to me: Can you be an FI with just the PPL? (Sorry, I jumped into the deep end and will do further research.)


Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer View Post
Nav_Tech, Most SPO type jobs on piston twins in Europe will require normally 500 hours and quite often 700 - 1000 hours. As an Ex Nav and Load Master you may have a better chance of getting employed as a MSO on some of the SPO type work.
Thanks, again with noob questions? MSO and SPO? I assume SPO to be Single Pilot Operations, but can't figure out the MSO yet.

So from an ICAO Commercial license, there seem to be no direct equivalent at EASA? Either PPL or ATPL theory credits?
I've got a ton of tabs open to still read through, so maybe the answer will still grab me.

Thanks for the inputs,
Erich
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Old 3rd May 2020, 23:33
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MSO - Mission System Operator - Essentially the non pilot crew member operating the survey / surveillance kit. Quite commonly the type of role done by Ex-Navs and Loadmasters.

EASA SPO- Specialised Operations - EASA category for non standard flying ops (eg: survey, surveillance work, target towing, oil spay etc).

There are standalone EASA CPL exams available but they give you no cross credit to the EASA ATPL Exams, so most find it easiest to do the full 14 ATPL . If you do the standalone 9 CPL exams under EASA then you will still need to do all 14 ATPL exams. The CPL exams give do not give you credit for the IR theory, so if you do CPL only exams you will need to do another 7 exams for the IR, where as the 14 ATPL give you credit for both CPL and IR. So you can see under EASA it is just as easy to do all 14 ATPL Exams even if you don't intend actually ever unfreezing the ATPL.

While you can add a FI rating to a PPL, you still need the CPL theory even though you don't need the actual CPL license (see comment above). Also a PPL without the CPL theory is limited to teaching LAPL (light aircraft pilot license) only not the full EASA PPL, Caveat that is how the rules stand in the UK , although EASA is supposed to be harmonised across the EASA member states , various national aviation authorities (NAA) still interpret the rules differently.

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Old 4th May 2020, 00:07
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
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Navtech. The FI course is, in the UK circa 7000. But GA is grounded at the moment.
covec is offline  
Old 6th May 2020, 10:10
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: South Africa
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Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer View Post
MSO - Mission System Operator - Essentially the non pilot crew member operating the survey / surveillance kit. Quite commonly the type of role done by Ex-Navs and Loadmasters.

EASA SPO- Specialised Operations - EASA category for non standard flying ops (eg: survey, surveillance work, target towing, oil spay etc).

There are standalone EASA CPL exams available but they give you no cross credit to the EASA ATPL Exams, so most find it easiest to do the full 14 ATPL . If you do the standalone 9 CPL exams under EASA then you will still need to do all 14 ATPL exams. The CPL exams give do not give you credit for the IR theory, so if you do CPL only exams you will need to do another 7 exams for the IR, where as the 14 ATPL give you credit for both CPL and IR. So you can see under EASA it is just as easy to do all 14 ATPL Exams even if you don't intend actually ever unfreezing the ATPL.

While you can add a FI rating to a PPL, you still need the CPL theory even though you don't need the actual CPL license (see comment above). Also a PPL without the CPL theory is limited to teaching LAPL (light aircraft pilot license) only not the full EASA PPL, Caveat that is how the rules stand in the UK , although EASA is supposed to be harmonised across the EASA member states , various national aviation authorities (NAA) still interpret the rules differently.

What a treasure trove of information.
I thank you kindly.

Looking forward to getting to Europe, I saw some Greek schools specializing in ICAO conversions. Will still do proper research of course before handing money over to anyone.

Regards.
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:41
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 185
If you are considering flight training in Greece, I strongly recommend to go and visit the location first, before deciding.
There are many so called ATO`s in Greece, but only one or two are reliable and professional.
In Megara for instance there are 4 ATO`s, of which only one, I would spend my money on, that is Global Aviation.
If you are considering Ionian Aviation in Megara, go and visit this so called ATO, and you will soon realize what I am talking about.
Send me a PM if you need more professional support.
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Old 8th May 2020, 08:40
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: South Africa
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Thanks. Yep, scamsters all around.

Thank you for the offer. Once I'm closer to a plan and a date, I'll ask you for the details regarding ATO's.

Erich
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