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CAE easyJet MPL 2020

Old 7th May 2020, 09:24
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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This unfolding situation should be part of the flashy advertising blurb that airlines/flight schools spew out when launching these schemes. It is profoundly wrong that people aren’t fully aware of what they are risking by getting into bed with often shady airlines and their fast track shiny jet schemes.

Like many, I hate the way they exploit young impressionable people with their glossy illustration of airline life whilst trousering vast amounts of money at little risk to themselves. Ridiculous sums of money charged for type ratings that help subsidise their wafer thin balance sheets.

I wouldn’t even buy a new car from anyone in senior airline management. I certainly wouldn’t trust them or any of their associated “training providers” with £130k of my money.

For the avoidance of doubt, a contract will always be in their favour and worthless when they run out of money. Remember CABAIR?
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:36
  #202 (permalink)  
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Not just CABAIR, Four Forces, Southern Flight Training (incidentally the director of this set up EPTA under a Cabair franchise literally on the other side of the road). In all cases students lost varying sums of money.
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Old 7th May 2020, 16:48
  #203 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer View Post
Not just CABAIR, Four Forces, Southern Flight Training (incidentally the director of this set up EPTA under a Cabair franchise literally on the other side of the road). In all cases students lost varying sums of money.
Add Trent, Cranfield to the list of owners who did a runner causing a number of customers to loose money.
Was there a Secoats at Lydd that folded as well?
A few of their customers completed at BAe, PIK at ‘cost price’.

A very small crumb of comfort for future trainees ~ your superior negotiating skills will always secure an improved deal. Never take the first offer. Always be prepared to walk away.

Retired / ex BALPA reps would be well suited to this rôle.

Take a leaf out of my brother’s book. He always buys his fairly new (second hand) car on Christmas Eve afternoon, or New Year’s Eve. As he says NO to their final offer on the deal, having haggled for a good 20 minutes, he walks to the showroom door, only to be called back......need I say more.....

Last edited by parkfell; 7th May 2020 at 16:59.
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Old 9th May 2020, 09:15
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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For anyone considering the MPL, or any flight training ask how many of the flight instructors are full time salaried employees and how many are contractors.

This will give a very good indication of the type of organisation.
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Old 9th May 2020, 14:24
  #205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
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Patience!

After big crisis come big opportunities, just need to WAIT, this is not gonna be the end of the world, it is just the end of chances to find a job within this and next year, take this time to study or work in something else and save money, after one covid treatment or vaccine is found(it's said to be 6-9months) there will be a better perspective on how situation is( airlines, flight schools, economy), 2021 and 2022 will be 2 years for current working pilots recover their jobs, so there will be no MPL programmes in at least 1 year. For those intended to do integrated or modular ATPL, no point to finish before second half of 2022 or even a bit later.

But don't believe those dramatic and apocalytic guys who tell this is the end of the world, it never is, I've seen several reports from touroperators and airlines that the pace of reservations for the next year is good, imagine after treatment for Covid is found...

For those that just finished MPL, it is cheaper for easyJet to hire a second officer than one experienced first officer, so, you will be hired once this is all gone, in the meantime, you will need to work in something else to pay your loans, thst's hard but not a disaster(the other day I saw one 747 captain of BA working with a van for a supermarket, he did it just entertainment and also helping others, but it is an example that it is possible to work in something else).

So, cheer up, be patient and don't give away your money to some hungry flight school, forget studying this year!
Good luck!!
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Old 10th May 2020, 08:31
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Broadlands View Post
For anyone considering the MPL, or any flight training ask how many of the flight instructors are full time salaried employees and how many are contractors.

This will give a very good indication of the type of organisation.
Do you mean that companies with a lot of full time salaried employees are more likely to go bankrupt?
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Old 10th May 2020, 09:14
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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As a guess, perhaps he means that FTOs with mainly contractor TKIs are excessively penny pinching, profit obsessed, greedy companies who prioritise revenue above customer service and training output standards?
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Old 10th May 2020, 09:39
  #208 (permalink)  
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Again these posts just show how poor this forum is at objective discussion.

From my viewpoint comparing the number of contract vs salaried staff for a school seems to be a pointless metric to consider. Firstly most of the schools (CAE and FTE being the main two) that do MPL are the same schools that provide the Integrated fATPL courses.
The integrated schools do tend to be the only schools that offer full time salaried instructor positions.

Most schools that provide modular training only (not the subject of the post concerning this), will tend to have flight pay only or small retainer with flight pay contracts for the "line" instructors, this is a generalisation so it wont hold for all cases. If you look at adverts in the last 18 months (pre Covid) then all both L3 and CAE were all offering salaried positions with the usual range of benefits for even the single engine instructors (which traditionally only paid flight pay per hour), so all the large schools have recognised the need to pay proper salaries to attract and retain instructors.
The other point to consider is the advanced stage of the MPL requires the instructors (MPL K2 previoulsy J2) to have 1500 hours of multi crew experience, so the instructors conducing this phase of the training are either retired Airline Pilots or current Airline Pilots working part time; both of those groups will tend therefore to be working on "freelance" contract arrangements.
So by default any school running the MPL scheme will have a number of contractors.

If you are concerned about selecting a school on the basis of which school offers the best terms and conditions for the instructors then you should all opt to train at CAE and L3 and not consider modular.


Another point is all MPL courses have a rigid selection criteria, it is only a small percentage of applicants that get accepted, so if you are offered a place on a MPL course you won't really have a choice at where you do the MPL course. The only choice you have as a MPL is to accept or not accept the place on the course.

Broadlands, will be happy to hear an explanation of your rationale?

Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 10th May 2020 at 10:11.
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Old 10th May 2020, 11:49
  #209 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer View Post
,,,,,,,,,all MPL courses have a rigid selection criteria, it is only a small percentage of applicants that get accepted, so if you are offered a place on a MPL course you won't really have a choice at where you do the MPL course. The only choice you have as a MPL is to accept or not accept the place on the course..........
Given the tsunami which has hit aviation, the last type of training course to recover will probably be the MPL.

Airlines will only consider it again when fully back on an even keel, and prospective junior birdmen will be somewhat wary given the fact that how these current MPL trainees are likely to be even worse off than those on the (f)ATPL route. The contract doesn’t to date provided any safeguards should training cease. In FLYBE case this would have been difficult as they ceased trading and the contract would become null and void.

MPL: no licence issued until base training successfully completed.
Without a licence, there is additional training due to a shortfall in light aircraft flying/tests for licence issue ~ CPL/IR route.

There is no doubt that the MPL route prepares the junior birdman far better for the RHS: “purpose built”
That is not to say the MCC/APS doesn’t achieve a quality product as well: “generically built”

Final thought: CAVEAT EMPTOR before entering any contractual agreement

Last edited by parkfell; 10th May 2020 at 14:26. Reason: Final sentence ~ déjà vu
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Old 10th May 2020, 13:25
  #210 (permalink)  
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Parkfell, agree on all your points there. There is just one correction to your post, the MPL to conventional CPL/IR conversion as detailed in the easy access rules is based on the MPL being fully issued.

At the moment the EASA easy access rules do not clearly detail how an incomplete MPL is converted to a conventional CPL IR. I assume the regulators will permit some degree of cross credit for training completed to date, and realistically the extra training for someone with an issued MPL and one that is unfinished but reached at least the intermediate phase is probably about the same. The difference is with an issued MPL the conversion route is laid down in the regulations but for those that are incomplete I would assume (note I say assume because this is just my judgement based on the content of the course, which may not be correct) additional exemptions and approvals would need to be sought from the NAA to agree the conversions process.

Since writing the post this morning there has been news in the public to domain to say MPL courses are getting cancelled.
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Old 10th May 2020, 13:38
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Angry

Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer View Post
Since writing the post this morning there has been news in the public to domain to say MPL courses are getting cancelled.
Portsharbourflyer, please could you clarify what you mean by this? Cheers.
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Old 10th May 2020, 14:18
  #212 (permalink)  

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It is hard to image that any sensible NAA would not agree to a large measure of common sense, take a very understanding pragmatic view, and simply require the shortfall to be completed to a satisfactory standard for these very unfortunate trainees.
The construction of the MPL syllabus, with I hope natural ‘break points’ smooth the whole process.

Let us hope that the “Campaign Against Aviation” is but a distant memory.
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Old 10th May 2020, 17:28
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by portsharbourflyer View Post
Parkfell, agree on all your points there. There is just one correction to your post, the MPL to conventional CPL/IR conversion as detailed in the easy access rules is based on the MPL being fully issued.

At the moment the EASA easy access rules do not clearly detail how an incomplete MPL is converted to a conventional CPL IR. I assume the regulators will permit some degree of cross credit for training completed to date, and realistically the extra training for someone with an issued MPL and one that is unfinished but reached at least the intermediate phase is probably about the same. The difference is with an issued MPL the conversion route is laid down in the regulations but for those that are incomplete I would assume (note I say assume because this is just my judgement based on the content of the course, which may not be correct) additional exemptions and approvals would need to be sought from the NAA to agree the conversions process.

Since writing the post this morning there has been news in the public to domain to say MPL courses are getting cancelled.
If MPL courses are getting cancelled, where does this leave students like my son who has done all his MPL apart from the base training which was stopped by easyjet
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Old 10th May 2020, 19:57
  #214 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by larki View Post
If MPL courses are getting cancelled, where does this leave students like my son who has done all his MPL apart from the base training which was stopped by easyjet
In an extremely unfortunate position, as base training requires 12 T/O & landings which is undoubtedly expensive.
The previous posts today discusses other possible options which might emerge.
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Old 10th May 2020, 20:51
  #215 (permalink)  
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Larki,

Remember this is an internet forum, so please do note what I write in my post is my interpretation based on what I know about the MPL training system and the easy access rules, further it is my interpretation of them. So your best course of action is to contact the ATO concerned (assume it would be CAE) to clarify what the options are.

Anyway the link to the Easy Access rules, you will see there are sections discussing MPL to CPL/IR, PAge 823 and 824.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...or_Aircrew.pdf

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Old 10th May 2020, 23:39
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WarrenFlight View Post
Portsharbourflyer, please could you clarify what you mean by this? Cheers.
Might be unrelated but there is this article https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN22D4PU
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Old 11th May 2020, 04:33
  #217 (permalink)  
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Warrenflight, I tried to reply to your PM but it wouldn't let me send, it gave a mailbox is full message.

Planesandthings, that is indeed the article I am referring to. While it doesn't mention MPL directly , I would assume that an Easyjet backed course is an MPL course.
There is a possibility that it could have been a tagged integrated that it is referring to, but as far as I know all recent Easyjet "backed" courses are MPL courses.
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