CAE Oxford Vs L3 (CTC)

[flying.scotsman1]

Leading edge are actually taking on a lot of L3's students to relieve a backlog of students at the moment. I think that says all you need to know about the current state of affairs.

[Banana Joe]

I have never heard of Leading Edge. And I finished my flight training only a couple of years ago.

[Alex Whittingham]

Breakaway school from Oxford/CAE currently taking students on contact from L3/CTC because L3 can't cope/have taken on a military contract that they prioritise over self funded cadets. I give up on this thread, to be accused of 'slander' is too much. good luck OP

[Parson]

Unless someone is paying for it or you have a bundle of cash, I would go modular. Lots of good modular schools out there and BGS is an excellent groundschool.
You can also do a bit at a time on the modular route and even instruct for a while part way through (if that's your thing) which will give you something that will stand out against other f/ATPLs when you start looking for jobs.
Don't get too hung up on marketing blurb - speak to people who have actually been to schools you are looking at. You can also get a more 'personable' experience at a smaller school.
At the end of the day, YOU still have to perform in your ground/flying tests wherever you go.
Above all, work hard and enjoy.

[parkfell]

Originally Posted by Swale Smith

Again some great responses thank you, unfortunately I only speak english so whoever that is its a non starter

My concern with a MPL course is what if for arguments sake you don't quite reach the exam grade they need or fail practical test or they go bust or simply decide there not hiring, at least with a white tail route I should have my ATPL which can be used at any operator that can accept low hour pilots or am I mistaken?

Timing wise its all a big gamble right now I'm aware the industry is very cyclical and right now the world and this country in particular is volatile, however I'm 31 yo and currently find myself in a situation where I can dedicate the time to doing this I fear if I wait around a few years I may miss opportunities and find myself on a different life path and possibly on the wrong side of 30 approaching 40 than the question of is it viable comes to mind, can't be guarantee'd a medical... this career is a lifelong ambition nothing I want to achieve more right now, and I feel I'm fast approaching a bit of a now or never scenario.

Officer Kite, has summed my situation up myself feeling perfectly world economic reasons aside I'm really thinking go with the biggest players to ensure the most successful outcome, I somewhat can stomach the high costs if I'm landed (forgive the pun) in employment rather quickly, and therefore recuperating the costs and fulfilling the dream whilst building hours... I'm scared of doing the modular route to try and save £30 or £40k which of course is a very huge amount of money, only to find that I've made a net loss as its taken me longer to gain employment or still sat on the shelf. I of course realise that could happen either way if there are no jobs about. My hope and feeling is that if there is a downturn its somewhat over and done by the time I've got my license or it simply doesn't end up being that bad or happening at all...unfortunately we cant really predict this if I was able to I'd be better off buying stocks and shares and buy my own airline

It's all such a mind field and a huge decision with great financial loss if it all goes wrong, money that simply cannot be easily earned.

The MPL route occurs for those who are selected (sponsored even) by an airline. The written exams are identical. Reduced flying but 120 hours multi crew simulator using the airlines SOPs, as oppose to MCC/JOC/APS where roughly only a third of multi crew simulator is necessary. As the MPL route is highly competitive, provided the selection process is sound, those chosen will have no difficulty with the course.
The type rating course is standard issue; invariably the good MPL students far out shine those through the normal MCC route. Hardly surprising given the 30 simulator exercises prior to the type course.
Line training as well, a definite head start, with the airline SOPs used from the start of the 120 hour phase.
The training is specific to RHS airline operations.

Given your medical history which you mentioned on 20 August, do not part with any hard earned money until the Class One Medical is in your sticky mit.

[Reverserbucket]

Breakaway school from Oxford/CAE

All six of the executive team are ex-OAA although some were also more recently L3...demonstrates what an incestuous industry this is though when you see that they have also joined forces with Virtual Aviation at Cambridge where Anthony Petteford is listed and pictured as an 'Executive Partner'....formerly CCO/VP L3/CTC and MD Oxford Aviation Academy....

I was also surprised by the slander comment that Alex refers to as I couldn't quite understand the context; I have read this thread comprehensively and I can't help but feel that the OP could be a little confused by mixing MPL into the discussion but also from the point of view of the style, grammar and punctuation used throughout. Seems to have narrowed down what he/she wants whilst leaving all options open.

[sms8]

Some good and interesting advice here, thanks again.

Interesting info re Leading Edge, will dig in a bit more.

Apologies on the terrible grammar and punctuation in the last message, I will correct and re-word some bits that don't make sense for the benefit of anyone else who stumbles across this thread in the future...bit tricky writing long messages on an iPhone.

[Cadet764]

I am currently training with L3.

Here is my take on the school:
The training is good, instructors are very knowledgeable on the theoretical knowledge side and although the flight-side instructors can be a bit hit and miss overall they are good at what they do.
The organisational structure is good and they try and make the operational side as much like an airline as possible - I think this has positives as it prepares you for the environment in which you'll be working in. From what I've heard this isn't necessarily the case elsewhere, with a lot of other flying schools having a more 'flying-club' feel about them (which there is nothing wrong with, just different to the way L3 does it).
The other trainees, especially white-tail do seem a bit out of touch with the reality of the industry and there does seem to be a fair bit of immaturity which might frustrate you if you're a bit older with life experience. The vast majority are having their courses paid for by their parents and believe the spiel that they're given by L3 that they'll almost be guaranteed a jet job. A fair chunk are straight from A-level school leavers and some seem to treat training like their peers do first year of university which doesn't produce great results, especially for the intensity of ground school.
One thing that I feel is a negative aspect of a big integrated course is that a lot of stuff is spoon-fed to you which although it produces good results doesn't necessarily make you a well-rounded or resourceful pilot.
If you are joining as white tail have no doubts that you will be at the bottom of the pile with the way you will be treated. Many of the airlines that run cadet schemes with L3 have 'no delay' clauses in their contracts meaning that L3 will get them out on time, even if that means that a white tail cadet doesn't fly for 3 or even 4 weeks. Even easyJet and BA cadets are facing delays at the moment. Delays do seem to be getting better, from more than 6 months at one point, they seem to be down to between 1 and 3 months, not sure if this is a result of a smaller intake of cadets or due to L3s opening of new branches (Portugal and Cranfield).

If I was in your position I would try my hardest to get into one of the tagged airline courses (in my opinion easyJet is the best one going at the moment), the selection process is not particularly difficult and with enough preparation should be easily doable. That way at least you have a high chance of graduating with a job that will be able to pay off your training as soon as possible.
Going white tail with any of the big 3, L3, FTE or CAE will most likely give you a higher chance of getting an airline job at the end than modular, but beware the drawbacks.

[sms8]

Very informative post, thanks for taking the time to write it. Congratulations on getting on the course your a lucky chap If there is an easyjet course on offer at the time I’ll certainly take that into consideration, if they’d pay for it I’d bite there arm off LOL, currently there are not whether there will be next year who knows.

Originally Posted by Cadet764

I am currently training with L3 although as part of a funded cadet program so I didn't make the choice and am not having to pay for the training.

Here is my take on the school:
The training is good, instructors are very knowledgeable on the theoretical knowledge side and although the flight-side instructors can be a bit hit and miss overall they are good at what they do.
The organisational structure is good and they try and make the operational side as much like an airline as possible - I think this has positives as it prepares you for the environment in which you'll be working in. From what I've heard this isn't necessarily the case elsewhere, with a lot of other flying schools having a more 'flying-club' feel about them (which there is nothing wrong with, just different to the way L3 does it).
The other trainees, especially white-tail do seem a bit out of touch with the reality of the industry and there does seem to be a fair bit of immaturity which might frustrate you if you're a bit older with life experience. The vast majority are having their courses paid for by their parents and believe the spiel that they're given by L3 that they'll almost be guaranteed a jet job. A fair chunk are straight from A-level school leavers and some seem to treat training like their peers do first year of university which doesn't produce great results, especially for the intensity of ground school.
One thing that I feel is a negative aspect of a big integrated course is that a lot of stuff is spoon-fed to you which although it produces good results doesn't necessarily make you a well-rounded or resourceful pilot.
If you are joining as white tail have no doubts that you will be at the bottom of the pile with the way you will be treated. Many of the airlines that run cadet schemes with L3 have 'no delay' clauses in their contracts meaning that L3 will get them out on time, even if that means that a white tail cadet doesn't fly for 3 or even 4 weeks. Even easyJet and BA cadets are facing delays at the moment. Delays do seem to be getting better, from more than 6 months at one point, they seem to be down to between 1 and 3 months, not sure if this is a result of a smaller intake of cadets or due to L3s opening of new branches (Portugal and Cranfield).

If I was in your position I would try my hardest to get into one of the tagged airline courses (in my opinion easyJet is the best one going at the moment), the selection process is not particularly difficult and with enough preparation should be easily doable. That way at least you have a high chance of graduating with a job that will be able to pay off your training as soon as possible.
Going white tail with any of the big 3, L3, FTE or CAE will most likely give you a higher chance of getting an airline job at the end than modular, but beware the drawbacks.

[parkfell]

Originally Posted by Cadet764

I am currently training with L3...
Going white tail with any of the big 3, L3, FTE or CAE will most likely give you a higher chance of getting an airline job at the end than modular, but beware the drawbacks.

Whilst it is true that the “big 3” have excellent connections with the airlines, you,the customer, still need to convince the perspective employer that you are worth the risk. In fact FTE JEREZ also offer a limited number of modular courses for the CPL/IR + MCC.

What any of the “big 3” cannot do is wave the magic wand so that customers gain employment irrespective of how they perform on the course. A weak training performance is not how to impress anyone. Do not expect to be recommended by the ATO.
I am not convinced that the modular route will disadvantage you in any way. Provided you have demonstrated a sound performance during training, the employer will be indifferent which route you followed.
Alex W has confirmed this in an earlier post. Worth a closer look.

The “big 3” might open the door for the interview, but that is as far as it goes.
I would challenge the veracity of CADET 764 assertion in his final paragraph. Produce the evidence....

[paco]

Agreed - " Do not expect to be recommended by the ATO."

Especially in the light of the new KSA 100 exam

[sms8]

If an airline partner came to them asking for some student pilots, and they have passed the KSA 100 exam, why wouldn’t they recommend someone if they thought they where capable?

I can’t see them saying “sorry we can’t recommend anyone” thats basically saying they don’t have faith in themselves or there training?

Originally Posted by paco

Agreed - " Do not expect to be recommended by the ATO."

Especially in the light of the new KSA 100 exam

[parkfell]

I don’t think you quite understand how the system works.

The chances of one of the large ATOs with say a dozen or so customers on a course (within a few weeks of completing) not having anyone suitable is extremely remote. They would have been consigned to the dustbin of history long ago.

On average perhaps up to 10%(?) are not going to make it first time. There is a very close relationship between the ATOs and their airline partners. What is discussed in private is a matter for conjecture, but you can expect honest discussions take place. In any event they would have access to all training files (with customers permission), and would interview them as well.
I can recall one very bright student (self funding) from BAe Prestwick in the late 1990s who scored over 95% in every CAA written exam, first time pass on the IRT, but struggled throughout the flying. Recommended ~ NO

Bottom line: just because you are issued with a CPL/IR does not mean in any shape or form a guarantee of employment.

[sms8]

Certainly is logical, nobody surely should expect them to recommend someone that they themselves aren’t confident are skilled enough to meet there partners expectations (airlines) be it theory or practical... that relationship would diminish fast. But for someone to say they no longer would recommend someone who does meet the criteria of theory, practical and attitude why on earth wouldn’t they recommend them?
Logic tells me as much as they may be a business and might well not go out there way to find you employment as such (especially if said student hasn’t put the effort in or done well etc) , it’s still got to be in there interests to get students out the door to a good employable standard where they hopefully find employment, if not then there business would also collapse as ultimately nobody would go there, there would be countless upset people complaining that the school was poor etc etc. and I’m just not seeing that... or am I missing something?

[JackPerry]

I'd just make two of my own opinions pertinent to this thread, based on my own experience and what seems to be the reality based on what i've observed:

• As for CAE - the selection process IS difficult, and you will not get past it unless you can show you have the sufficient knowledge and attitude required. I was slightly cynical, but went through the process feeling that they DID want me to prove myself and were not simply after money. I can't speak for L3 as much, as I never went through a full selection process, but every interaction did feel more customer/client like - but this is not to say they don't have sufficient selection criteria, I'm sure they do.
• What seems to bear itself out thread after thread is that whether you are Whitetail, Mentored, or even MPL, this is all secondary to your performance and attitude during your time with your school

[Reverserbucket]

I recall a conversation with a TKI from one of the big ATO's a couple of years ago where he told me that a number of high-performing graduates were recommended to a prospective employer on the request of the airline but were almost all rejected. He said there was surprise to discover that quite a few modular, and some the school had considered underperforming during training, were in fact taken on by this operator and made it through 737 type rating without issues. He felt that perhaps the successful candidates, those not recommended by the school, were perhaps more compliant and therefore a better fit for this particular employer at the time, which says quite a lot.

I reiterate what has already been said about modular vs integrated revolving around an ability to pay but also the individual - Cadet764 confirms through reference to the lack of maturity and I have heard of the frustration from instructors lately at the lack of motivation demonstrated by a number of similar sounding students; discipline, motivation and integrity are necessary for modular training if you are serious about securing a job at the end, but for integrated it seems that there is still an attitude among some that because they have paid for training, it should be delivered with minimum effort on the part of the student.

Interested to hear more about the flying instructors being 'a bit hit and miss but good at what they do'... And to the OP, a gentle recommendation before you go much further to perhaps refresh your memory in terms of homophones - e.g. the use of 'there', 'they're', 'their' etc. A reasonable level of grammar and spelling are fairly basic expectations of prospective airline pilots and may be used as a filter for future selection.

[Cadet764]

Originally Posted by parkfell

The “big 3” might open the door for the interview, but that is as far as it goes.
I would challenge the veracity of CADET 764 assertion in his final paragraph. Produce the evidence....

I definitely agree with what you've said Parkfell and do think that at the end of the day a good candidate is a good candidate and that in this market they should not have too hard a time finding a job, modular or integrated. As you have said though graduating from one of the Big 3 gives you the 'foot in the door' as it were, they won't get you the job but will get you an interview. I realise this is a massive oversimplification but just trying to illustrate the point I'm getting at: If a candidate had the skills and aptitude required to maybe get 1/5 jobs that he applied to, if that candidate was able to get 5 interview then he'd statistically be able to get a job, if he only managed to get 2 then it's statistically unlikely, so the fact that the schools can get you an interview is still a positive IMO. This I believe will most likely become more of an advantage if the market slows which looks more and more likely - Brexit, trade war and global economic uncertainty will be sure to cool off the current job market for newly qualified cadets.

Interested to hear more about the flying instructors being 'a bit hit and miss but good at what they do'

A lot of the instructors in the NZ flying 'base' are fairly fresh and many are not long out of flight school themselves, I haven't had that much exposure to flight side yet and bad experiences are second hand so might just be a case of someone whinging.

[parkfell]

Originally Posted by Swale Smith

Certainly is logical, nobody surely should expect them to recommend someone that they themselves aren’t confident are skilled enough to meet there partners expectations (airlines) be it theory or practical... that relationship would diminish fast. But for someone to say they no longer would recommend someone who does meet the criteria of theory, practical and attitude why on earth wouldn’t they recommend them?
Logic tells me as much as they may be a business and might well not go out there way to find you employment as such (especially if said student hasn’t put the effort in or done well etc) , it’s still got to be in there interests to get students out the door to a good employable standard where they hopefully find employment, if not then there business would also collapse as ultimately nobody would go there, there would be countless upset people complaining that the school was poor etc etc. and I’m just not seeing that... or am I missing something?

The recommendation phase is more likely than not to come towards the end of the course when a clear picture has emerged as to the quality of the customer. If the customer then failed the IRT say three times, that might cause a rethink ; a serious breach of the ATOs rules & regulations may be a valid reason to withdraw the recommendation. Not an exhaustive list.

The phrase about taking a horse to water springs to mind. A competent motivated customer will succeed. Periodic review boards will take place, and the “no hopers” hopefully removed at an early stage of training, usually during the ground school phase, although it does happen during the flying phase, often after a failed progress test & repeated fail.

You will always get those who just make it “by the skin of their teeth” and would be regarded as high risk following the MCC phase, if they were to undertake a type rating course. Post CPL/IR issue, it only gets harder and more complicated.

The bit that you are missing is “how” the schools actually work.

[parkfell]

Originally Posted by Cadet764

I definitely agree with what you've said Parkfell. As you have said though graduating from one of the Big 3 gives you the 'foot in the door' as it were, they won't get you the job but will get you an interview.
.

This is not exactly what I said @2036 yesterday. I said that you “might” get an interview ~ “the foot in the door” concept.
That might only occur if the ATO recommends you. Or, an airline might say that want ‘X’ new pilots and will assess ‘Y’ of your customers.
They may even say to the ATO to select those for interview who meet our criteria based on good exam marks etc. It can be as broad as it is long as to what the individual airline specify.

FLYBE historically set the bar at 90% average exam mark. I know one student who averaged 89.6%. FLYBE said NO !
Somewhat harsh I thought?

[Reverserbucket]

These “no hopers” hopefully removed at an early stage of training can depend entirely on the market in my experience as I recall a couple of students who reached a spectacular 40-50 hours, numerous review boards etc. prior to solo, who were allowed to continue despite their apparent ineptitude. One certainly made it to RYR in the end. Another I remember chopped just short of about 35 hours and no solo on the horizon at a fair weather base but was actually allowed to continue training back at home by the same school. Got through the CPL IIRC but never made it to the IR.

I find it interesting whenever these discussions appear that folk are prepared to pay top dollar for integrated training on the basis that you might get an interview (again, when the market is buoyant...plenty didn't during the last downturn but according to the marketing, that's the best time to train, right?), yet accept that the instructors are barely out of training themselves. Naturally, you don't know this pre-training, and of course it's been this way for a long time, but it says a lot about the industry in terms of quality and experience vs access.